Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

[jocor]

Dear Jocor, I really have no idea, but I believe Jesus to be God with us of Mat 1:23

I believe Yeshua's name "Emmanuel" to mean "God with us" as well. In what sense? That he was the one true God or that the one true God was "in him" reconciling the world to Himself (2 Cor 5:19)? I believe the Father lived in the Son via His indwelling Holy Spirit. So God (Father YHWH) was "with us" because He was with Yeshua and Yeshua was with us.

who made Himself of no reputation according to
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

You can continue to believe as you want, but I reckon I'll just believe my Savior is also my God incarnate.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him (John the Baptist) that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (YHWH transliterated as Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Mat 3:3.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

I don't feel comfortable giving you my understanding of these passages without your permission since my reply can be construed as going against the ToS.

 

[jocor]

Earlier versions were written in Early Modern English. (1500-1800) The language was not a precise and settled then as it is now. To base such a critical theological issue on such imprecise language is not good scholarship.

In John 1:1 the Logos is identified as being God. If the Logos is an "it" then God is an "it" as well.

The best examples of the Greek NT read at John 1:3
πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν
all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made, (RSV)

The word "αὐτοῦ" is translated "him" in the KJV, NKJV, NLT, NIV, ESV, HCSB, NASB, NET, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB, HNV. These translators had better source material than the translators of the Tyndale Bible and the Great Bible and are translating it into modern English rather than Middle English or Early Modern English, neither of which languages are spoken today. It is those obsolete languages to which you refer as used to translate "it" what today is better translated "him" in precise, Modern English.

Here is a short list of "autou" being translated "it" based on the context. I bolded the word "autou/it" (G846) and the object it referred to.

Mat_10:11 AndG1161 intoG1519 whatsoeverG3739 G302 cityG4172 orG2228 townG2968 ye shall enter,G1525 enquireG1833 whoG5101 inG1722 itG846 isG2076 worthy;G514 and thereG2546 abideG3306 till yeG2193 G302 goG1831 thence.

Mat_10:12 AndG1161 when ye comeG1525 intoG1519 an house,G3614 saluteG782 it.G846

Mat_10:13 AndG2532 ifG1437(G3303) theG3588 houseG3614 beG5600 worthy,G514 let yourG5216 peaceG1515 comeG2064 uponG1909 it:G846 butG1161 if it be notG3362 G5600 worthy,G514 let yourG5216 peaceG1515 returnG1994 toG4314 you.G5209

Mat_10:39 He that findethG2147 hisG848 lifeG5590 shall loseG622 it:G846 andG2532 he that losethG622 hisG848 lifeG5590 for my sakeG1752 G1700 shall findG2147 it.G846

Mat_11:12 AndG1161 fromG575 theG3588 daysG2250 of JohnG2491 theG3588 BaptistG910 untilG2193 nowG737 theG3588 kingdomG932 of heavenG3772 suffereth violence,G971 andG2532 the violentG973 take it by force.G726 G846
​

There are many more examples, but the point is, it is not a matter of me basing my beliefs on an "imprecise" or "obsolete language", but of me, and other famous translators such as Tyndale, knowing how to translate the Greek word "autou" based on the context. In none of the verses above can "autou" be translated "him".

Are you suggesting that all the translators of all those Bibles are all wrong?

Yes, just as you are suggesting all the translators prior to the KJV are wrong. How do we know who is right and who is wrong? Context without reading anything into the text.

Are you suggesting that the Counsel of Nicaea was in error in their conclusion that the Logos is a person?

Yes.

Are you suggesting that the teaching of the Trinity, a core teaching of the Christian faith, is wrong?

To answer this would go against the ToS.

And are you basing that on the lack of precision inherent in the English language before the 1800a?

See above.

 

[Eugene]

I don't feel comfortable giving you my understanding of these passages without your permission since my reply can be construed as going against the ToS.

That's fine, we can drop the subject as our TOS does state the following rule.
Do not promote a religion or belief other than Biblical and historical Christianity. (ToS 2.2)
There is so much scripture other than this to be learned, and this subject has been beat to death. It would be better to take it elsewhere if you've a mind to debate it, though I don't even know of anyone else that believes Jesus isn't God unless you get into JW and Mormonism I think.
Thanks.

 

[JLB]

Yeshua took the book out of the hand of YHWH (the Creator). He is then given glory for redeeming us to YHWH our God and for making us kings and priests unto YHWH our God. To read into Rev 4:8 anyone other than YHWH (Yeshua's Father and God) is a grievous mistake.

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

“Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”


The words Yeshua or YHWH do not appear in Revelation 4:8.

These are "made up" and added to this verse.

The warning from the book of Revelation is clear:

18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18

The book of Revelation is in fact a revealing or uncovering of who Jesus Christ is: The Lord God.

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13


...if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life.

Isaiah says the First and Last is a reference to God, The King of Israel.

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus Himself testifies to His Churches that He Himself is the First and the Last, which is a reference to the Lord God YHWH.


Do you, Jocor, confess Jesus Christ as The First and the Last, The Lord God of Israel, The King of Israel ?



JLB

 

[jocor]

8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

“Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”


The words Yeshua or YHWH do not appear in Revelation 4:8.

These are "made up" and added to this verse.

The warning from the book of Revelation is clear:

18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18

Are you trying to tell me that I cannot give a commentary in which I use the name "Yeshua" instead of "Lamb"?? Oy vey!

Do you, Jocor, confess Jesus Christ as The First and the Last,

Yes

The Lord God of Israel,

No

The King of Israel ?

Yes

 

[JLB]

Are you trying to tell me that I cannot give a commentary in which I use the name "Yeshua" instead of "Lamb"?? Oy vey!

I'm pointing out the obvious, that Yeshua nor YHWH appears in Revelation 4:8, the scripture in which you claim these words appear.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Are you trying to tell me that I cannot give a commentary in which I use the name "Yeshua" instead of "Lamb"?? Oy vey!

Yes
No
Yes

The scriptures teach us the "First and Last", is a reference to God, who is the King of Israel.

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

This is who Jesus says He is: 12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13

and again

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8


This is confirmed by Zechariah as well, as it is written -

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

This scripture is a reference to the return of Jesus Christ, when He comes with His saints at the resurrection.


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11-16


JLB

 

[jocor]

The scriptures teach us the "First and Last", is a reference to God, who is the King of Israel.

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

This is who Jesus says He is: 12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13

and again

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8


This is confirmed by Zechariah as well, as it is written -

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

This scripture is a reference to the return of Jesus Christ, when He comes with His saints at the resurrection.


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11-16


JLB

As much as I would like to address your verses, I can't. I was already given a 1 point warning for breaking the ToS in this thread. I'll be praying for you JLB.

 

[Jim Parker]

There are many more examples, but the point is, it is not a matter of me basing my beliefs on an "imprecise" or "obsolete language", but of me, and other famous translators such as Tyndale,

Exactly. You don't speak the same English as Tyndale spoke but you assume that it provides you "proof" that the Logos/Son of God is an "IT."

Is the Tyndale Bible the one which you read on a daily basis?

MY: "Are you suggesting that all the translators of all those Bibles are all wrong?"

Yes,

That is quite presumptuous of you to say so. Are you more expert than they are?

What are you credentials? Are you and expert in Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew?

I ask because the people selected to do the modern translations were chosen because they are recognized experts in their fields while you appear to be an amateur.

Am I wrong? Are you and expert? Have you earned a PhD in Biblical languages?

just as you are suggesting all the translators prior to the KJV are wrong.

I didn't say they were "wrong." I said the Late Middle English language into which they were translated was imprecise and, therefore, more difficult to understand and more prone to confuse a modern English speaker such as yourself. There is also the purely political choice or words used for the express purpose of using renderings which tended to refute Roman Catholic doctrines. (often with reasonable bases but that is a different conversation)

The KJV is based on the Textus Receptus (TR) which was generated by the Dutch Catholic scholar, Erasmus based on a late Byzantine text. Also, he didn't have complete Greek texts available and, when necessary, re-translated Jerome's Latin Vulgate back into Greek. From that, others translated into Late Middle English.

Middle English was imprecise and without regular structure to a level seriously enough to induce English men of letters to propose and encourage the establishment of an English Academy by the crown with the assigned task of standardizing the English language. That process went on for over two centuries. The result is that we have a standard English Grammar and Dictionaries of standard usage today which were not in existence in the 16th and 17th centuries when Tyndale and the KJV scholars were translating.

The shortcomings of the TR and the discovery in the 20th century of more ancient and better manuscripts than were available to Erasmus, plus the fact that no one speaks Jacobean English, is the reason that there are many modern and better translations than those of the 16th and 17th century.

You have selected seriously flawed artifacts with which to attempt to "prove" your notion that the eternal Son of God, the Logos, is an impersonal "it."

That is neither Biblical nor historical Christian theology.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

As much as I would like to address your verses, I can't. I was already given a 1 point warning for breaking the ToS in this thread. I'll be praying for you JLB.

Words of Christ in red.


Jesus said, "I am the First and the Last", which is a clear and irrefutable reference to YHWH, The God of Israel, the King of Israel.

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13

Jesus said, "I am the Alpha and Omega", which is a reference to the Almighty. The Lord God Almighty.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord,“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:8

The First and Last is one of the titles of God from the Old Testament.

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

• The Spirit of Christ spoke these words through Isaiah. 1 Peter 1:11

Another title we see for God in this verse is Redeemer and King.

I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.
I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
Isaiah 43:12-15

The King of Israel is God, YHWH.
The King of Israel is Jesus.

The Savior of Israel is Jesus.
The Savior of Israel is the Lord God.

As Paul declares -

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Titus 2:13


JLB

 

[jocor]

Exactly. You don't speak the same English as Tyndale spoke but you assume that it provides you "proof" that the Logos/Son of God is an "IT."

Is the Tyndale Bible the one which you read on a daily basis?

MY: "Are you suggesting that all the translators of all those Bibles are all wrong?"



That is quite presumptuous of you to say so. Are you more expert than they are?

What are you credentials? Are you and expert in Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew?

I ask because the people selected to do the modern translations were chosen because they are recognized experts in their fields while you appear to be an amateur.

Am I wrong? Are you and expert? Have you earned a PhD in Biblical languages?



I didn't say they were "wrong." I said the Late Middle English language into which they were translated was imprecise and, therefore, more difficult to understand and more prone to confuse a modern English speaker such as yourself. There is also the purely political choice or words used for the express purpose of using renderings which tended to refute Roman Catholic doctrines. (often with reasonable bases but that is a different conversation)

The KJV is based on the Textus Receptus (TR) which was generated by the Dutch Catholic scholar, Erasmus based on a late Byzantine text. Also, he didn't have complete Greek texts available and, when necessary, re-translated Jerome's Latin Vulgate back into Greek. From that, others translated into Late Middle English.

Middle English was imprecise and without regular structure to a level seriously enough to induce English men of letters to propose and encourage the establishment of an English Academy by the crown with the assigned task of standardizing the English language. That process went on for over two centuries. The result is that we have a standard English Grammar and Dictionaries of standard usage today which were not in existence in the 16th and 17th centuries when Tyndale and the KJV scholars were translating.

The shortcomings of the TR and the discovery in the 20th century of more ancient and better manuscripts than were available to Erasmus, plus the fact that no one speaks Jacobean English, is the reason that there are many modern and better translations than those of the 16th and 17th century.

You have selected seriously flawed artifacts with which to attempt to "prove" your notion that the eternal Son of God, the Logos, is an impersonal "it."

That is neither Biblical nor historical Christian theology.

iakov the fool

First of all, what makes the word "it" "Jacobean English", but not the word "him"? "It" is simply an English word that translates the Greek word "autou" based on the context.

Second, one does not need a PHD in Biblical languages to know "autou" can be translated "it" based on the context.

It is obvious by your personal attack on my knowledge that you have no defense against my view that "autou" can be translated "it" as all the verses I quoted clearly show.

 

[JLB]

First of all, what makes the word "it" "Jacobean English", but not the word "him"? "It" is simply an English word that translates the Greek word "autou" based on the context.

Second, one does not need a PHD in Biblical languages to know "autou" can be translated "it" based on the context.

It is obvious by your personal attack on my knowledge that you have no defense against my view that "autou" can be translated "it" as all the verses I quoted clearly show.

This is a bible study Forum, not an opinion Forum.

We are discussing foundational principles of the Church, so please use scripture to validate your point.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phillipians 2:5-6,10-11

Jesus is YHWH the Lord God.


JLB

 

[AirDancer]

First of all, what makes the word "it" "Jacobean English", but not the word "him"? "It" is simply an English word that translates the Greek word "autou" based on the context.

Second, one does not need a PHD in Biblical languages to know "autou" can be translated "it" based on the context.

It is obvious by your personal attack on my knowledge that you have no defense against my view that "autou" can be translated "it" as all the verses I quoted clearly show.

Note of point: Tynedale's English would not have been Jacobean. His early manuscripts were published prior to 1550, so his English would have been the same as Henry VIII, Edward VI, Queen Mary I and Elizabeth I.

 

[AirDancer]

Second note of point: This is the Bible Study forum.

Debate is NOT allowed.

All discussion MUST remain in keeping with the rules of this forum as well as with CFnet's Terms of Service.

 

[Jim Parker]

Here is a short list of "autou" being translated "it" based on the context. I bolded the word "autou/it" (G846) and the object it referred to.

Mat_10:11 AndG1161 intoG1519 whatsoeverG3739 G302 cityG4172 orG2228 townG2968 ye shall enter,G1525 enquireG1833 whoG5101 inG1722 itG846 isG2076 worthy;G514 and thereG2546 abideG3306 till yeG2193 G302 goG1831 thence.

Mat_10:12 AndG1161 when ye comeG1525 intoG1519 an house,G3614 saluteG782 it.G846

Mat_10:13 AndG2532 ifG1437(G3303) theG3588 houseG3614 beG5600 worthy,G514 let yourG5216 peaceG1515 comeG2064 uponG1909 it:G846 butG1161 if it be notG3362 G5600 worthy,G514 let yourG5216 peaceG1515 returnG1994 toG4314 you.G5209

Mat_10:39 He that findethG2147 hisG848 lifeG5590 shall loseG622 it:G846 andG2532 he that losethG622 hisG848 lifeG5590 for my sakeG1752 G1700 shall findG2147 it.G846

Mat_11:12 AndG1161 fromG575 theG3588 daysG2250 of JohnG2491 theG3588 BaptistG910 untilG2193 nowG737 theG3588 kingdomG932 of heavenG3772 suffereth violence,G971 andG2532 the violentG973 take it by force.G726 G846.....

In none of the verses above can "autou" be translated "him".

Of course not!

Mat_10:11 A city or a town is an "it," not a "him."
Mat_10:39 A life is an "it," not a "him."
Mat_10:12 A house is an "it," not a "him."
Mat_11:12 A kingdom is an "it," not a "him."

Why would any of them ever be referred to by the pronoun, "him"?

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (KJV)
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

That says the LOGOS ("Word" in the KJV) was God.
God is NOT an "it" like a house or a city or a kingdom.
God is a "He" in the Bible.

That's why, in every modern English translation of the Bible, the pronouns consistently used to refer to God are "Him" and "He," but never "it."

God is best referred to as a "person". (not an "it" or a "thing")
And the Word (LOGOS or λόγος ) is God. (Jn 1:1)
Therefore, the Word (LOGOS or λόγος ) is also a "person" (not an "it.")

Jhn 1:2 The same (g846 αὐτός autos) was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him (g846 αὐτός autos);
and without him (g846 αὐτός autos)was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him (g846 αὐτός autos) was life; and the life was the light of men. (KJV))

That's the KJV using the word "HIM" when referring to the Word (LOGOS or λόγος ). That's in Late Middle English. (Jacobean English, to be precise)

So your "proof" is of no value whatsoever since it does not address the issue. It is proper to use the pronoun "it" to refer to any of the things in the verses you quoted. But, it is never proper, in Modern English, to refer to a PERSON as "it" (unless you are intentionally being rude.)


iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

First of all, what makes the word "it" "Jacobean English", but not the word "him"? "It" is simply an English word that translates the Greek word "autou" based on the context.

sigh

It's not the word that makes the language of the KJV Jacobean English; it's the language spoken by the translators and the language in which it is written. It is the language spoken in England in 1611.

Second, one does not need a PHD in Biblical languages to know "autou" can be translated "it" based on the context.

I didn't say anyone did need a PhD. Any schlub can use the buttons on an on-line Bible application. The question was, "What are you qualifications to pronounce that all the modern Bible translators are wrong and you are right?" Do you have the training to qualify you as an expert who can, with authority, declare that all your contemporary in the field are totally incompetent when it comes to properly translating the word "autou" as you can?

It is obvious by your personal attack on my knowledge that you have no defense against my view that "autou" can be translated "it" as all the verses I quoted clearly show.

I never said that οὗτος could not be translated "it." It most definitely can be translated "it" or "him" or "her."

The point is that you have decided that, because Tyndale translated the word "it" back in the early 1500s, in a language that is no longer spoken on this planet, that God the Logos is an "it."

And, just to clarify, since "knowledge" is one of those entities which is properly identified as an "it" ( a thing rather than a person), it is impossible to make a "personal" attack against something that is not a person.

Any, further, I am not attacking you. I am, however, pointing out that the error of the basis upon which you have constructed your unbiblical teaching that, contrary to historical Christianity, the 2nd person of the Trinity is a thing rather than a person.

You have a nice day.

iakov the fool

 

[jocor]

Of course not!

Mat_10:11 A city or a town is an "it," not a "him."
Mat_10:39 A life is an "it," not a "him."
Mat_10:12 A house is an "it," not a "him."
Mat_11:12 A kingdom is an "it," not a "him."

Why would any of them ever be referred to by the pronoun, "him"?

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (KJV)
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

That says the LOGOS ("Word" in the KJV) was God.
God is NOT an "it" like a house or a city or a kingdom.
God is a "He" in the Bible.

That's why, in every modern English translation of the Bible, the pronouns consistently used to refer to God are "Him" and "He," but never "it."

God is best referred to as a "person". (not an "it" or a "thing")
And the Word (LOGOS or λόγος ) is God. (Jn 1:1)
Therefore, the Word (LOGOS or λόγος ) is also a "person" (not an "it.")

Jhn 1:2 The same (g846 αὐτός autos) was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him (g846 αὐτός autos);
and without him (g846 αὐτός autos)was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him (g846 αὐτός autos) was life; and the life was the light of men. (KJV))

That's the KJV using the word "HIM" when referring to the Word (LOGOS or λόγος ). That's in Late Middle English. (Jacobean English, to be precise)

So your "proof" is of no value whatsoever since it does not address the issue. It is proper to use the pronoun "it" to refer to any of the things in the verses you quoted. But, it is never proper, in Modern English, to refer to a PERSON as "it" (unless you are intentionally being rude.)


iakov the fool

As I told JLB, "as much as I would like to address your verses, I can't.

(edited ...ToS 1.3)

 

[JLB]

As I told JLB, "as much as I would like to address your verses, I can't.

You just don't have any way to refute what the plain and clear scriptures teach, about Jesus Christ, and Him being our Lord, YHWH.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

We believe from the scriptures that Jesus Christ, will be coming at the end of the age, with His saints, on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord, YHWH is also called the Day of Christ, in which He will gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture and bring vengeance upon the enemies of God.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:2

This Day of YHWH, is referred to in the OT and is directly related to Jesus Christ.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

The day of the Lord, YHWH, is the day of Christ.

Jesus Christ is YHWH, the Lord God who will come with His saints. Zechariah 14:5

And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved. Joel 2:30-32

Jesus is the name of the Lord we must call on, to be saved. He is our Savior.

He is our great God and Savior. Titus 2:13, Isaiah 43:3

Paul directly links this passage to Jesus, and confessing Jesus as Lord, YHWH.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

This is a direct reference to Joel 2, and Jesus as the NAME of YHWH.

[For there is no other Name under heaven by which men can be saved.]

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:9-13,16

Paul hard-links the obeying of the Gospel, to confessing Jesus as Lord, YHWH.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8




JLB

 

[jocor]

You just don't have any way to refute what the plain and clear scriptures teach, about Jesus Christ, and Him being our Lord, YHWH.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

We believe from the scriptures that Jesus Christ, will be coming at the end of the age, with His saints, on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord, YHWH is also called the Day of Christ, in which He will gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture and bring vengeance upon the enemies of God.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:2

This Day of YHWH, is referred to in the OT and is directly related to Jesus Christ.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

The day of the Lord, YHWH, is the day of Christ.

Jesus Christ is YHWH, the Lord God who will come with His saints. Zechariah 14:5

And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved. Joel 2:30-32

Jesus is the name of the Lord we must call on, to be saved. He is our Savior.

He is our great God and Savior. Titus 2:13, Isaiah 43:3

Paul directly links this passage to Jesus, and confessing Jesus as Lord, YHWH.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

This is a direct reference to Joel 2, and Jesus as the NAME of YHWH.

[For there is no other Name under heaven by which men can be saved.]

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:9-13,16

Paul hard-links the obeying of the Gospel, to confessing Jesus as Lord, YHWH.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

JLB

I know how much you love to bombard me with all your "proof" verses even though you know full well that I am not permitted to reply. If you need to feel good about yourself at my expense, have at it.

 

[JLB]

I know how much you love to bombard me with all your "proof" verses even though you know full well that I am not permitted to reply. If you need to feel good about yourself at my expense, have at it.

No one is keeping you from answering my post's, as long as you have scripture from a legitimate version of the Bible.

This is not some game to me, and is not about you, or me.

It's about the truth of the word of God, which His apostles and prophets have written for us, and are good... for teaching, for instruction in righteousness, for correction and reproof.

If anyone wanders from this life or death truth we are discussing, then they are likened to a sinner, and are headed for eternal death.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

I won't let you or any other follower of the religion of Judaism, or any of it's sects, that denies Jesus as Lord, the Lord of The Bible and Messiah, teach another Gospel, or present another Jesus to those who have come here seeking the truth.

Why anyone would want to deny Jesus as Lord, the Lord God of the OT that became a man, to die for our sins, when there is an overwhelming amount of scripture that teaches us this truth.

Here is the testimony of God the Father, about His Son:

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8



JLB