Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

[Jim Parker]

As I told JLB, "as much as I would like to address your verses, I can't.

sure

 

[Jim Parker]

Note of point: Tynedale's English would not have been Jacobean. His early manuscripts were published prior to 1550, so his English would have been the same as Henry VIII, Edward VI, Queen Mary I and Elizabeth I.

Right. That's why I identified Tyndale's English as "Late Middle English."
Jacobean English would be a type of Late Middle English.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

If you need to feel good about yourself at my expense, have at it.

Is that an example of a personal attack?

 

[jocor]

No one is keeping you from answering my post's, as long as you have scripture from a legitimate version of the Bible.

From the "Terms of Service":
6) Anti-Christian content will be considered a hostile act. (ToS 2.1)
This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare it false) and the basic tenets of our Faith is against the purpose of this site.

This is not some game to me, and is not about you, or me.

It's about the truth of the word of God, which His apostles and prophets have written for us, and are good... for teaching, for instruction in righteousness, for correction and reproof.

If anyone wanders from this life or death truth we are discussing, then they are likened to a sinner, and are headed for eternal death.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Yeshua is the truth and my faith is in him as Yahweh's Messiah and Son. This passage has nothing to do with your version of theology.

I won't let you or any other follower of the religion of Judaism, or any of it's sects, that denies Jesus as Lord, the Lord of The Bible and Messiah, teach another Gospel, or present another Jesus to those who have come here seeking the truth.

Wow! Its a good thing I'm not a follower of the religion of Judaism or any of it's sects or deny Yeshua as "Lord" or teach another Gospel. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of JLB.

Why anyone would want to deny Jesus as Lord, the Lord God of the OT that became a man, to die for our sins, when there is an overwhelming amount of scripture that teaches us this truth.

Why anyone would want to deny that Yeshua is the SON of YHWH Elohim (the Lord God) of the OT that was a man that died for our sins, when there is an overwhelming amount of scripture that teaches us this truth is beyond me.

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.​

Here is the testimony of God the Father, about His Son:

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

JLB

Go learn about the word "elohim" and how it was used of men in Scripture and do not be misled by the translator's capitalization of "God".

 

[JLB]

From the "Terms of Service":
6) Anti-Christian content will be considered a hostile act. (ToS 2.1)
This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare it false) and the basic tenets of our Faith is against the purpose of this site.

No one is keeping you from answering my post's, as long as you have scripture from a legitimate version of the Bible.

This is what you have failed to do. Show scripture for your position, from a legitimate version of the bible.

 

[JLB]

Go learn about the word "elohim" and how it was used of men in Scripture and do not be misled by the translator's capitalization of "God".

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

So you are saying Jesus is a "god" , and not God Himself.

How can a god be the King of the kingdom of God, and not God Himself?

Please explain how you have come to this conclusion.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Wow! Its a good thing I'm not a follower of the religion of Judaism or any of it's sects or deny Yeshua as "Lord" or teach another Gospel. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of JLB.

I guess that just leaves teaching "another" Jesus.

A Jesus that is not the Lord God, but a lord like Abraham, right?

That must be what Paul meant when he said... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

What I guess you are saying is Paul must have meant to say.. our great god and savior, Jesus Christ? Right?

Is that how you see it?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Why anyone would want to deny that Yeshua is the SON of YHWH Elohim (the Lord God) of the OT that was a man that died for our sins, when there is an overwhelming amount of scripture that teaches us this truth is beyond me.

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

Please post the correct version you are using. Why is Son capitalized in your version?

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. Acts 3:13 KJV

Yes, God the Son became flesh. He has the Name YHWH, which is also His Fathers Name.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, Acts 3:13-14


If you would have posted the next verse, you would see yet another reference to Jesus as YHWH.

The Holy One is a reference to the Lord, YHWH, which is why the translators capitalized it.

‘Whom have you reproached and blasphemed?
Against whom have you raised your voice,
And lifted up your eyes on high?
Against the Holy One of Israel.
2 Kings 19:22

Then I would still have comfort;
Though in anguish I would exult,
He will not spare;
For I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
Job 6:10

Also with the lute I will praise You—
And Your faithfulness, O my God!
To You I will sing with the harp,
O Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 71:22

I guess it's hard to read the New testament without running into another reference to Jesus as YHWH.


JLB

 

[jocor]

No one is keeping you from answering my post's, as long as you have scripture from a legitimate version of the Bible.

You should be ashamed of yourself for badgering me into replying in the hope that I would say something that will get me suspended off the forum.

 

[jocor]

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

So you are saying Jesus is a "god" , and not God Himself.

No, I am not saying h is "a god". I am saying just what the inspired OT says in Hebrew; that he is an elohim.

How can a god be the King of the kingdom of God, and not God Himself?

Please explain how you have come to this conclusion.

JLB

A "god" is not the King of the Kingdom of God. The King is said to be a descendant of king David. That King is the "SON of God", not "God Himself."

 

[Jim Parker]

Go learn about the word "elohim" and how it was used of men in Scripture and do not be misled by the translator's capitalization of "God".

Gen 2:4 (KJV) These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God (Yahweh Elohiym) made the earth and the heavens,

The words "LORD God" are used to translate the name "YHWH Elohiym" ( הֹוָה אֱלֹהִים )
The same names for God are found at Gen 2:5, 7, 8, 9, 15, 16, 18, 19, 21, 22, Gen 3:1, 8, 9, 13, 14, 21, 22, 23, 26; 9:26; 15:2, 8; 24:7, 12, 45; 28:13, Exo 3:15, 16, 18; 4:5; 5:1 7:16; 9:1,13, 30 etc. etc. etc. ... Mal 3:14.

Variations include; "the Lord (Yahweh) our God (Elohiym)," "the Lord (Yahweh) your God (Elohiym)," and "the Lord (Yahweh) my God (Elohiym)."

And, again, we have the unanswered question of why you think you are correct and every modern translator is wrong. Please explain the reason why I (or anyone else, for that matter) should take your word over the legion of properly trained, expert, translators who all say differently.

iakov the fool

 

[jocor]

I guess that just leaves teaching "another" Jesus.

A Jesus that is not the Lord God, but a lord like Abraham, right?

That must be what Paul meant when he said... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

What I guess you are saying is Paul must have meant to say.. our great god and savior, Jesus Christ? Right?

Is that how you see it?
JLB

Yeshua is not a lord like Abraham who was merely lord of a few. YHWH (the LORD God) made Yeshua to be Lord of all mankind (Acts 2:36).

Titus 2:13 reads quite differently in many other versions. The NASB, for example, reads, "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus". Messiah Yeshua is the "glory" of our great God and Savior (YHWH). In Titus 2:11, Yeshua is the "grace" of God; "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,"

 

[Jim Parker]

No, I am not saying h is "a god". I am saying just what the inspired OT says in Hebrew; that he is an elohim.

Please explain your understanding of what "an elohim" is.

 

[Jim Parker]

Yeshua is not a lord like Abraham who was merely lord of a few. YHWH (the LORD God) made Yeshua to be Lord of all mankind (Acts 2:36).

Mat 28:18b (KJV) All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

That makes JESUS the LORD of all creation, not just all mankind.

And "LORD God" is the English rendering of "YHWH Elohiym", not just "YHWH."

 

[jocor]

Please post the correct version you are using. Why is Son capitalized in your version?

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. Acts 3:13 KJV

I always use the KJV unless otherwise specified. I choose to replace the erroneous name "Jesus" with the name he was given at birth by the angel. "Son" is capitalized to distinguish him from all other sons.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, Acts 3:13-14


If you would have posted the next verse, you would see yet another reference to Jesus as YHWH.

The Holy One is a reference to the Lord, YHWH, which is why the translators capitalized it.

‘Whom have you reproached and blasphemed?
Against whom have you raised your voice,
And lifted up your eyes on high?
Against the Holy One of Israel.
2 Kings 19:22

Then I would still have comfort;
Though in anguish I would exult,
He will not spare;
For I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
Job 6:10

Also with the lute I will praise You—
And Your faithfulness, O my God!
To You I will sing with the harp,
O Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 71:22

I guess it's hard to read the New testament without running into another reference to Jesus as YHWH.


JLB

"Holy One" is a title shared by the Father and the Son. The Father is the "Holy One of Israel" and the Son is the "Holy One of God (Father YHWH)" (Mark 1:24)

 

[jocor]

Please explain your understanding of what "an elohim" is.

A "mighty one". Yahweh is the mightiest one in the universe. Angels are mighty ones in heaven, but to a lesser degree than Yahweh. The judges of Israel were mighty ones in Israel, but to a lesser degree than both angels and Yahweh. The Son was made an elohim to a lesser degree than angels having been made lower than the angels, but upon his glorification, he became the second greatest elohim in the universe. This fulfills the type of Joseph in his relationship to Pharaoh and Egypt. Yet, Yeshua himself declared his Father to be the "ONLY true Elohim" (John 17:3).

 

[jocor]

Mat 28:18b (KJV) All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

That makes JESUS the LORD of all creation, not just all mankind.

I agree, but I would say he is "the Lord of all creation".

And "LORD God" is the English rendering of "YHWH Elohiym", not just "YHWH."

Of course.

 

[Jim Parker]

A "god" is not the King of the Kingdom of God. The King is said to be a descendant of king David. That King is the "SON of God", not "God Himself."

That explains nothing.

Jesus is the Son of God (Luke 1:32, 35) and He is God. (John 1:1)
Jesus is also the son of David. (Mat 1:1, 6-16, 20; 9:27; 12:23; 15:22; 20:30, 31; 21:9, 15; 22:42; Mar 10:47, 48; 12:35; Luk 3:31; 18:38, 39)

So, WHO is JESUS according to you?

iakov the fool

 

[jocor]

That explains nothing.

Jesus is the Son of God (Luke 1:32, 35) and He is God. (John 1:1)
Jesus is also the son of David. (Mat 1:1, 6-16, 20; 9:27; 12:23; 15:22; 20:30, 31; 21:9, 15; 22:42; Mar 10:47, 48; 12:35; Luk 3:31; 18:38, 39)

So, WHO is JESUS according to you?

iakov the fool

The Son of YHWH ; the son of David; the Messiah; and my Lord and Savior and elohim.

 

[Jim Parker]

my Lord and Savior and elohim.

And what, exactly do you mean when you say "elohim" (with a lower case "e")?