Why are my Christian neighbours not Christian?

[Edward]

Oh yes I agree, we all sin. Some more the others I'm sure but not to judge. Just because someone might struggle doesn't mean to cast them out. I've struggled a lot and I'm glad I wasn't cast out. But if people are clearly just doing whatever they want with no regards then those are the ones to stay away from in my opinion.

Exactly, sister. The unregenerate ones. One can be early in their walk, and still be Christian, however, it will show. The unregenerate ones...well, it shows in them too.

 

[WIP]

There's a difference between sinning and sinning willingly. We all sin but none of us should be doing so willingly.

 

[JoJoe]

Google definition:
hy·poc·ri·sy
həˈpäkrəsē/
noun

1. the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

I am sure that others may have a slightly different idea of hypocrisy but this is what I was referring to, to all unbelievers we appear to be hypocrites since we have the Law(moral standards) but we cannot follow the Law(because we've all sinned) and I say that we don't push aside this definition, but rather we should embrace it!

"For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." - Romans 7:15-25 ESV

If we agree with the Law that it is Holy and good but we do not follow it to the letter, we appear to be hypocrites to outsiders. With the recent focus on homosexuality I've decided that I will no longer view this as an insult but I will take it on as my identity. I am a hypocrite since I believe the Law is good and I cannot keep it, but I am saved through the love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ who died to save hypocrites like me. So yes, I am calling every Christian a hypocrite because every Christian is a hypocrite as far as the Law is concerned:

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." - 1 John 1:8 ESV

To say that my definition is judgemental and not loving I'll remind everyone that as Christians we are called to judge our brothers according to 1 Corinthians 5:12. If there is a single Christian here who follows the Law perfectly and does not sin then I will concede that you are not a hypocrite, however since Jesus isn't here I feel safe to say we're all hypocrites as far as the Law is concerned.

I am not disagreeing with you, nor will I agree. As a sinner I fully agree, my spirit disagrees.

I have prayed on this a lot of my life and mainly the reason I thought lower of myself in the church (Body of Christ). Not until now have I been able to appreciate this and see myself not holier than thou. Let me ask you; do you persue the flesh or the spirit?

Well brother I don't pick up the dictionary, I pick up the Bible now days; and this is what it says. That when we read the beginning of Romans 7 (I am on agreement with the scripture you used, I just like to include the whole teaching)that Paul clearly states in the beginning.

ROMANS 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
ROMANS 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
ROMANS 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

So what Paul is saying is the Law has power over man. Using the example of marriage he states that the Law frees a woman when the husband dies, and is able to have relations to another even though she is still married (In God's eyes).

Then he goes on to say...

ROMANS 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
ROMANS 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
ROMANS 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Your flesh is hypocritical because we need to be in spirit. Jesus Christ saved us from death, from the punishment of God's law. My flesh is nothing to note any more, I haven't fully let it die, true. Doesn't mean when I serve the Lord and do his will there is NOTHING hypocritical about it. Paul is saying we are released from the law, and bound to Christ.

ROMANS 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
ROMANS 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
ROMANS 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
ROMANS 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
ROMANS 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
ROMANS 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
ROMANS 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
ROMANS 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The Law isn't the sin and he clearly states its our flesh that is sin. The law says we are to be damned to God's wrath, Jesus saved us from this.

Paul is thankful for this, he recognizes the mind to do good by God's law. But the flesh is to serve sin. He asks and as you quoted

Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

To "embrace" the sin that is the flesh, to me is the opposite of where God is trying to take me .

I am not saying I don't sin brother, nor as long as l am in this body deny that. I just won't persue its lies any longer. For I am free from the wrath of God, though Jesus.

 

[The_Epsicle]

My view of us all being hypocrites is not at odds with yours. In fact what you have written is exactly where these conversations should lead when one accuses a Christian of being a hypocrite, it's an opportunity to explain what a great thing God has done for us! I couldn't have said it better than you have here:

Your flesh is hypocritical because we need to be in spirit. Jesus Christ saved us from death, from the punishment of God's law. My flesh is nothing to note any more, I haven't fully let it die, true. Doesn't mean when I serve the Lord and do his will there is NOTHING hypocritical about it. Paul is saying we are released from the law, and bound to Christ.

 

[JoJoe]

My view of us all being hypocrites is not at odds with yours. In fact what you have written is exactly where these conversations should lead when one accuses a Christian of being a hypocrite, it's an opportunity to explain what a great thing God has done for us! I couldn't have said it better than you have here:

I see what you did there.:yes
Amen brother.

 

[iLOVE]

Now to go on and say we are all hypocrites as Christians, is quite the judgement itself.

God can said it better than I can.

But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6 NKJV

Isaiah 64:6 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
6 We are all dirty with sin.
Even our good works are not pure.
They are like bloodstained rags.
We are all like dead leaves.
Our sins have carried us away like wind.

Thank God for our Lord and savior Jesus Christ!

 

[Free]

I think an important distinction needs to be made. To be a hypocrite or call oneself or another a hypocrite, is to make a judgement of character. And certainly some are hypocrites--they continually live in a way that is inconsistent with what they profess, much like the people in the OP, or so it seems. This is exactly the same thing as what WIP said, and perhaps why he said it. There is a vast difference between being a hypocrite and acting hypocritically on occasion, which is something we all do.

As for judging, the Church is to judge those who profess to be followers of Christ; that is what the NT teaches. We are just not to judge hypocritically.

 

[Free]

I wrote you in my [previous] letter not to associate [closely and habitually] with unchaste (impure) people-- Not [meaning of course that you must] altogether shun the immoral people of this world, or the greedy graspers and cheats and thieves or idolaters, since otherwise you would need to get out of the world and human society altogether!
(1Co 5:9-10)

I said I don't hang out with them.

What exactly do you mean by this? You posted this to support your statement that you "don't hang out with unbelievers," yet Paul is quit clearly talking about believers who act in those ways, not unbelievers.

As reba said, even Jesus hung out with unblievers. Why did Jesus do it but you won't?

 

[Brother Mike]

What exactly do you mean by this? You posted this to support your statement that you "don't hang out with unbelievers," yet Paul is quit clearly talking about believers who act in those ways, not unbelievers.

As reba said, even Jesus hung out with unblievers. Why did Jesus do it but you won't?

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
(1Co 5:9-10)

Do we have to have contact with the unsaved? Yes.
Do I hang out with the unsaved? NO
Do I have anything in common with the unsaved? NO
Do I have friends that are not saved? NO

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
(2Co 6:14)

Why was Jesus eating with sinners?
Mar_2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

What other Reason would Jesus go to the sinners and be with them?
And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
(Mat 9:11-12)

Jesus said they accuse me of eating with publicans and sinners, then He said Wisdom is justified of her Children. What Wisdom?

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(Joh 5:30)

As Jesus heard, so he went. If He hears go eat with them, He goes. Paul said don't be unequally yoked, and Jesus was not, he went there to save the lost, after getting orders.

Same reason I applied and worked at a bar, I was told to go there, but I was not there to hang out with the drug users and rowdy crowed, I was there to help who God had in mind.

You don't hang out with the unsaved Free, be their friends, go to movies with them. You get direction first, then go. If you do this on your own, you put yourself in danger of letting the worlds junk rub off on you. Your suppose to protect your heart, so when it's time to lay hands on the sick, there is no question in your mind they won't be healed.

Jude 1:23
Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.

You get direction first, then go..........

 

[Free]

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
(1Co 5:9-10)

Do we have to have contact with the unsaved? Yes.
Do I hang out with the unsaved? NO
Do I have anything in common with the unsaved? NO
Do I have friends that are not saved? NO

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
(2Co 6:14)

Why was Jesus eating with sinners?
Mar_2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

What other Reason would Jesus go to the sinners and be with them?
And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
(Mat 9:11-12)

Jesus said they accuse me of eating with publicans and sinners, then He said Wisdom is justified of her Children. What Wisdom?

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
(Joh 5:30)

As Jesus heard, so he went. If He hears go eat with them, He goes. Paul said don't be unequally yoked, and Jesus was not, he went there to save the lost, after getting orders.

Same reason I applied and worked at a bar, I was told to go there, but I was not there to hang out with the drug users and rowdy crowed, I was there to help who God had in mind.

You don't hang out with the unsaved Free, be their friends, go to movies with them. You get direction first, then go. If you do this on your own, you put yourself in danger of letting the worlds junk rub off on you. Your suppose to protect your heart, so when it's time to lay hands on the sick, there is no question in your mind they won't be healed.

Jude 1:23
Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives.

You get direction first, then go..........

My only point was that the passage does not support your statement.

 

[Brother Mike]

My only point was that the passage does not support your statement.

I believe it dose.... Do not company with fornicators is clear enough, and your right, Paul was talking about other believers right after that.
However, I gave Scripture as to why Jesus did what He did, and other scripture that does support the fact we are not to be friends with people (Jesus said to with unrighteous mammon) and allow them into our life as buddies.

Hence I said, I don't hang out with the unsaved. It's a good way to get in trouble ourselves, because when we think we are strong, we are not.

Thanks for clearing that up Free.

Mike.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Bad company corrupts good morals.1 Corinthians 15:33.

Jesus was sinless, so He could hang out with the worst of the worst, the most charming sinners ever, and not be corrupted. Me, I'm just some Baby Christian trying to get right, so...increasingly, I avoid my non-Christian acquaintances.

 

[Free]

I believe it dose.... Do not company with fornicators is clear enough, and your right, Paul was talking about other believers right after that.
However, I gave Scripture as to why Jesus did what He did, and other scripture that does support the fact we are not to be friends with people (Jesus said to with unrighteous mammon) and allow them into our life as buddies.

Hence I said, I don't hang out with the unsaved. It's a good way to get in trouble ourselves, because when we think we are strong, we are not.

Thanks for clearing that up Free.

Mike.

Again, the passage you quoted from 1 Cor 5 is all in reference to those who call themselves followers of Christ but do those sorts of things. There is no prohibition in the entirety of Scripture for hanging out with unbelievers or having them as friends.

And it has nothing at all to do with thinking one is strong.

Bad company corrupts good morals.1 Corinthians 15:33.

Jesus was sinless, so He could hang out with the worst of the worst, the most charming sinners ever, and not be corrupted. Me, I'm just some Baby Christian trying to get right, so...increasingly, I avoid my non-Christian acquaintances.

There is a saying by Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason: "Never read a Bible verse." What he means by this is that we are to never read a verse in isolation, as it very often removes the meaning of the text, emptying it of all authority. We have to read what comes before and after a verse to get the context which tells us what the verse is saying.

In this case, the entire chapter is about the reality of Christ's resurrection and how that assures us of our resurrection. It would be odd indeed for Paul to just throw such a blanket statement in there about not hanging out with unbelievers, would it not? What would make the most sense here, within the context of the resurrection, is that Paul is speaking of those who deny the resurrection. It is worth noting that Paul is actually quoting a heathen poet, which also may have been a common saying of the day.

As for Jesus, it had nothing to do with him being sinless. He was emulating to his disciples how to treat unbelievers, was he not? Certainly it would seem wise that one's closest friends and those whom one hangs out with regularly are believers, but that in no way means that Christians cannot or should not have unbelievers as friends. Of course, as with you, it is up to the individual Christian to know what they can and cannot handle. There is hardly a better way to witness than be a friend who is trusted and respected.

 

[Brother Mike]

Again, the passage you quoted from 1 Cor 5 is all in reference to those who call themselves followers of Christ but do those sorts of things. There is no prohibition in the entirety of Scripture for hanging out with unbelievers or having them as friends.

And it has nothing at all to do with thinking one is strong.


There is a saying by Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason: "Never read a Bible verse." What he means by this is that we are to never read a verse in isolation, as it very often removes the meaning of the text, emptying it of all authority. We have to read what comes before and after a verse to get the context which tells us what the verse is saying.

In this case, the entire chapter is about the reality of Christ's resurrection and how that assures us of our resurrection. It would be odd indeed for Paul to just throw such a blanket statement in there about not hanging out with unbelievers, would it not? What would make the most sense here, within the context of the resurrection, is that Paul is speaking of those who deny the resurrection. It is worth noting that Paul is actually quoting a heathen poet, which also may have been a common saying of the day.

As for Jesus, it had nothing to do with him being sinless. He was emulating to his disciples how to treat unbelievers, was he not? Certainly it would seem wise that one's closest friends and those whom one hangs out with regularly are believers, but that in no way means that Christians cannot or should not have unbelievers as friends. Of course, as with you, it is up to the individual Christian to know what they can and cannot handle. There is hardly a better way to witness than be a friend who is trusted and respected.

I understand you point about taking one verse and making it mean something that it does not. The warning was not to hang out with fornicators, though Paul was speaking not to make other believers think by our friendship that living that way is right.

However, I did have other verses, and Jesus by direction did go to the lost and did eat with them, but He hung out with those He was instructing. A big difference to be with people your instructing in the Word.

As for a friend? I can't think of anything I want to do with a unbeliever on the same equal level.

Now I have invited unbelievers over to eat, or just spend some time with them, but Not in a sense that we were "Friends" or just hanging out.

Even a homeless women, not saved, living in her car, cussed me out just talking about Jesus ended up living with me because she ended up homeless. She got saved though, and only after I got direction on what to do.

I don't believe we are to just dive in and be friends with the World, if we are with them, as them, equal with them, then the light is not as bright.

Mike.

 

[jeff77]

A hypocrite sometimes places standards on others which they do not keep themselves. Self- righteousness!

True, but just because we commit certain sins does not mean we should not place those standards on others or no longer recognize them as being sin. BTW I'm not saying that is what you were implying in your post, just pointing it out.

 

[Sparkey]

I'm praying that my children remain chaste or, if married, remain faithful to their vow. One of my children is single and I know that celibacy is not easy these days. So if I were to find out otherwise? I don't want to find out. It's not a test that I would like at all. I am already decided though. Matthew 10:37 makes that decision. We are not even consulted about it.

But Sparrow! Even your children know that you are not a stranger to sexual sin. What a hypocrite you are!

Fair enough. It's true. All I can do is admit my sin and go from there. Can anybody erase sin? I know of only one. His offer is not just to me but to all. And He counsels all, "Count the cost."

How many do? Who here has ever heard anybody object to eating with lip-service only because they remain in sin by choice? Yet we know there are many who secretly worship idols and continue in sin.

But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one.

Galatians 5 carries the message as well:

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

Walk with the Lord and watch the above list fall off of you. But where there is no repentance there is also no forgiveness. We should all do a bible study on 'lawlessness' or "clouds without water."

I would welcome prayer --for myself and for my loved ones. Nobody is beyond these things. We need each others support.

 

[Deborah13]

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

Hmm...I'm thinking that it would be quite difficult to bring ones Jewish relatives to the saving knowledge of the Messiah if one were to not eat or associate with them. It would impossible to show them the love of Christ and your Christ-like behavior if you did that.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hmm...I'm thinking that it would be quite difficult to bring ones Jewish relatives to the saving knowledge of the Messiah if one were to not eat or associate with them. It would impossible to show them the love of Christ and your Christ-like behavior if you did that.

Reading what else I posted about this, backed with scriptures might help a bit.

 

[WIP]

Do we have to have contact with the unsaved? Yes.
Do I hang out with the unsaved? NO
Do I have anything in common with the unsaved? NO
Do I have friends that are not saved? NO

I'm curious. How do you know who is or is not saved? To my knowledge, only God can know our hearts.

 

[Brother Mike]

I'm curious. How do you know who is or is not saved? To my knowledge, only God can know our hearts.

God knows all things about the Heart, but a believer can have a messed up heart, and all our hearts need adjustments still. So it's not the heart the determines if someone is saved, unless we mean by a new spirit in the body, the heart of man which we can't normally see.

We have a witness by the Same Holy Spirit that has sealed them as us. We have their response to other brothers and sisters..... "We know them because they love the brethren" (John 3:14)

We know by fruit.....

Even that though, many times I have walked by someone and felt the power of the Holy Spirit, I'll stop and talk with them. Now just because they have the Holy Spirit, is no indication I want to "hang" out with them. A Apostolic believer for example is someone I won't have a lot in common with.

Sometimes the Holy Spirit has to tell us, go with them, or do this with them. Like in Peter's case. Peter had such an aversion to the gentiles, Peter could not tell on his own if a Gentile was OK, God had to direct him.

However, Just because they are saved, don't mean a whole lot.
Rom_15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Php_2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Not everyone is like minded or have the same mind according to Jesus Christ.

Yesterday a 16 year old girl knocked on our door, we know their family as I met the mom and dad once. Her dad is a minister, and talking with her Mom for about an hour, there is almost zero interest in spiritual things. The girl was asking for some food. I guess she was turned down by other people in the apartment complex.

My question was, Why was a 16 year old Girl asking for food? What is Dad doing? He told me He is a minister.
A Minister ought to know that you don't pull on people for food, you go to God, ask him only. Making man your source brings a curse. A minister should know this.

I don't ask people for money or things, I ask God, and if it don't get fixed, then I am out of line somewhere and I need to get some wisdom and correction. Enabling people to stay disobedient is not a good thing.

So, I said to the wife, give her what she ask for.

Later on, My wife's parents come over, and this is how we met this family. My wife's parents run them all over, pay for their things and that is their business. I won't do that.

The family starts calling again, and the Husband said he has not had anything to eat for 2 days, there is no food in the house. No wonder the daughter came down, she was hungry.

We just spent everything to pay bills, and I am about to start a new job, and I have only the food we planned to eat for my own family.
I told the wife to box up the meat, eggs, and lets just give it to them. God will figure out something for us, no problem.

So we filled a big box with our best, and unopened stuff..... (You don't give the Lord left overs or what you don't want, you buy new, or fix it up like new)

We prayed over the food and sent it.

What they did.
So, they filled a box with canned peaches, out of date cans, rice (Mom don't like to cook I find out) and stuff they don't like that they had gotten from food pantries in the past and sent that to us as a gift. A box full of stuff they don't like, or want to fix, and it was a pretty good size box of food they sent. Most we had to throw away as it was way out of date and I think the wife only kept a couple cans, the rest went to the trash.

They dishonored the Lord, They send me junk that they should have eaten and been content.

So, this is a family of believers I most definitely won't be hanging out with. I had them told that if they are hungry then walk down to my place and we will see what we can feed them.

Mike