Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

[AVBunyan]

Av, What you asked was for scritural reference to what one NEEDS in order to BE SAVED.
Matthew 5:1-38 Matthew 6:1-34 Matthew 7:1-29
Matthew 10:32-33 Matthew 12:31-37 Matthew 13:15 Matthew 16:6
Matthew 16:16-17 Matthew 16:24-26 Matthew 18:3 Matthew 18:21-22
Matthew 18:35 Matthew 20:23 Matthew 22:14 Matthew 22:37-40
Matthew 28:18-20, etc. MEC

Mec – you are quoting verses that have nothing to do with salvation by grace today – you are back under the law with a faith/works setup - the gospel of the Kingdom.

Please save yourself some time if you plan on going through the gospels in this fashion. If you believe these are salvation verses for today I understand partly why you are so off on the deity of Christ.

I asked you to show me verses on salvation – I will clarify…

Show me how a man is justified today –

A few should be sufficient – it should not take more than a few minutes –

Thank you.

 

[jgredline]

And in what 'part' of the Holy Bible did you find this 'chart'? Looks like some sort of 'symbolism' to me that is NOT contained ANYWHERE but in the imaginations of man.

MEC

Mec
This ''chart'' is shown through out the Holy Scriptures...Now admittingly, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, one will not see it....

1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel:
2 To know wisdom and instruction,
To perceive the words of understanding,
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom,
Justice, judgment, and equity;
4 To give prudence to the simple,
To the young man knowledge and discretionâ€â€
5 A wise man will hear and increase learning,
And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
6 To understand a proverb and an enigma,
The words of the wise and their riddles.


A person who understands “words of understanding†(see verse 2) understands the meaning of scripture.....parables, and the sayings and riddles of the wise. The word for “riddle†(ḥîḏâh) means an indirect, oblique, or enigmatic statement (like a figure of speech) which needs interpretation...In other words, the bible is nothing but a book of riddles to those who are not born again, those who do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.....

For those who have the Holy Spirit, it becomes clear as a nice sunny day....For those who DO NOT have the HS, it is clear as mud...

 

[jgredline]

Mec – you are quoting verses that have nothing to do with salvation by grace today – you are back under the law with a faith/works setup - the gospel of the Kingdom.

Please save yourself some time if you plan on going through the gospels in this fashion. If you believe these are salvation verses for today I understand partly why you are so off on the deity of Christ.

I asked you to show me verses on salvation – I will clarify…

Show me how a man is justified today –

A few should be sufficient – it should not take more than a few minutes –

Thank you.

Amen....

 

[MarkT]

Imagican

Good work. It's rough battling Satan for the souls of people who can't hear you.

Veritas

So, Jesus is your God then?

See, I believe there is subordination within the Godhead.

Jesus is God and the creator and always will be equal to the Father in that sense... but Jesus has made the choice to submit to the Father

I think scripture is pretty clear on this submission and when it happened:

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour. He sits on the throne of God which makes him God. Uh...God Almighty is the Creator. The light was the workman through whom and by whom God created everything.

At least you're working on a timeline. The discussion is about Jesus during his time on earth; when the light was with us, when the light was manifest in the flesh. I think.

For a time he was made lower than the angels. This means he was mortal. Either Jesus died on the cross or he didn't. If he was God Almighty, then God Almighty died on the cross. In that case there was no God to raise him. If he didn't die, then there was no sacrifice.

Jesus, in his own words, was, 'a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God.' John 8:40

He said, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God.' 'You have not known him; I know him.' John 8:54

John wrote that, 'No one has ever seen God' John 1:18 and Jesus said, 'his voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen.' John 5:37

Jesus was equal rank to the Father from eternity to creation (John 1:1-3 , Colossians 1:16 , Hebrews 1:8-10 )

Well that's not what it says. I agree that the Word was with God and the Word was God but saying the Word was God is saying the Word came from God and we know Jesus was sent by God; that he, 'proceeded and came forth from God'. John 8:42

Jesus was equal rank to the Father from creation to incarnation (Philippians 2:5-6)

Paul said he was in the form of God. I believe the light appeared to Abraham as God Almighty but God didn't make his name known to him. Jesus said, "Abraham saw my day" Also keep it in mind that God was giving Jesus what to say so here Jesus was referring to himself as 'my day'.

So there was the LORD on earth and the LORD in heaven. But I think you have to keep it in mind that Paul was saying that Jesus was in the name of God and not God himself. Seeing him was seeing the Father. Jesus said, "I have manifested thy name". John 17:6 Jesus manifested the Father's name on earth but he was in the Father and the Father was in him. Jesus said, "Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one." John 17:11

"This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."

 

[MarkT]

God is the author of the life and Jesus is the life. You know the words have to be in you. My words are in me and tough to get out sometimes. In that sense the 'book' of the Lamb was in God and he was seen by men. Jesus was the 'book'. Now one man might look at the 'book' and see the title of the book - 'Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace'. Isa. 9:6 The disciples saw the book - Jesus was the book.

 

[Imagican]

Mec – you are quoting verses that have nothing to do with salvation by grace today – you are back under the law with a faith/works setup - the gospel of the Kingdom.

Please save yourself some time if you plan on going through the gospels in this fashion. If you believe these are salvation verses for today I understand partly why you are so off on the deity of Christ.

I asked you to show me verses on salvation – I will clarify…

Show me how a man is justified today –

A few should be sufficient – it should not take more than a few minutes –

Thank you.

That IS what I attempt to DO. For a 'BELIEF' and manifestation of THESE words in one's LIFE are 'being BORN AGAIN'. And I have ALREADY stated that this 'watered down' version of Christianity taught BY the churches is WEAK. Leading those that follow into SELF DELUSION. BELIVING that they can TALK themselves INTO 'being' a Christian RATHER than following the exaple as offered.

The; 'those that profess' means LITTLE. For 'faith WITHOUT works IS DEAD'. Can one 'work' their way to heaven'? BY NO MEANS. But ONCE one IS saved they will show the evidence in the CHANGE of heart that has taken place. Their WORKS WILL reflect their Savior.

So, a 'simple statement' such as 'I believe in Christ' means little without the 'change' that WILL take place in the hearts of those that TRULY believe.

Oh, and the verses that I offered were NOT only Salvation issues, but JUSTIFICATION by the very Words of Christ. And there are also verses that deal with the 'deity' of Christ.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and Av,

Let me add this;

It is NOT what someone 'thinks' of another that offers their Salvation, but a REASSURANCE in one's heart that can ONLY be offered THROUGH The Spirit.

One that IS 'saved' will KNOW it by that which is offered THROUGH The Spirit. And NO repetitive repeating of 'something' to themselves is ABLE to offer ANYTHING other than 'wishful thinking'.

HOW one IS to 'come to Jesus' is a rather 'difficult thing to offer 'others'. The closest I can come to defining it is 'a STATE' one 'may or may NOT' be ABLE to come to. And it is at THIS point that one IS ABLE to be 'changed'. For I have PERSONALLY witnessed MANY that merely 'thought' that the 'change HAD happened' only to realize that the ONLY 'true' change had BEEN 'wishful thinking'.

Difficult to do ANYTHING but 'lead' others in the proper direction. But there IS the ABSOLUTE reality that Satan constantly SEEKS to convert his OWN. Leading these to 'believe' that they have been 'saved' while they ignoratntly follow him. Offering them the 'pulling of heart strings' and emotional 'high' that MOST associate with The Spirit. Satan IS able to offer this in psuedo and HOW does one recognize the 'real' from the 'imitation'? One way is 'FRUIT'. If one 'thinks' that they are 'saved' and CANNOT overcome their 'sin nature', then MOST likely they ONLY THINK they are saved.

Conviction OF The Spirit will reveal whether it BE The Spirit or 'some other spirit'. If one is 'able' to MISTREAT their brothers and sisters WITHOUT conviction AFTER being 'saved', there is likelyhood that their Salvation IS in question.

And the words that I offer here MOST LIKELY will mean LITTLE to those that have allowed themselves to be 'fooled' into a 'belief' in their being 'born again'. For what seems to matter to MOST is the 'warm fuzzy syndrom' offered by MOST of the churches.

And Av, there are LEVELS of Christianity. They can be 'called' many different things, but the BEST way that I can explain them ARE levels. One may call them a 'recognition of gifts', there can be MANY ways to express them scripturally but to me I simply refer to the 'changes' as LEVELS. One IS 'born again' and IF they are willing CAN GROW with time and EFFORT. For one MUST 'recognize' FIRST and FOLLOW second. Many learn to IGNORE and therefore seek continually AFTER MILK rather than GROWING IN The Spirit.

These things are quite DEEP and I expect NO ONE to accept them that haven't been exposed. That there WILL be few that are even able to comprehend just goes to show that they have YET to reach anything other than 'step one', (if their first step TRULY IS in the RIGHT direction).

More on this later. I will 'look up' and post the scripture that YOU desire. But I can assure you that there is MUCH more to it than simply 'making statements'.

MEC

 

[Veritas]

Imagican, I noticed this exchance between you and cybershark5886...

cybershark5886 wrote:
God alone is truely holy and good. Is this an admission?

~Josh

Imagican replied
UNTRUE.

For, ONCE Christ 'took on the flesh' and defeated death through a 'sinless' MORTAL life, HE TOO became HOLY and GOOD.

MEC

Have you considered Jesus Words on this matter? If you called Him good to his face, this is how he answers:

"Why do you call me good?" .... "No one is goodâ€â€except God alone. Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19

 

[AVBunyan]

Oh, and the verses that I offered were NOT only Salvation issues, but JUSTIFICATION by the very Words of Christ. And there are also verses that deal with the 'deity' of Christ. MEC

In your last two posts you never gave me the verses.

OK Mec - now after all you said in those two posts I respectfully ask again...
Please present me a few verses on how the sinner is justified or saved. I am not expecting a long explanation just the verses will do.

Thank you

 

[Imagican]

Imagican, I noticed this exchance between you and cybershark5886...




Have you considered Jesus Words on this matter? If you called Him good to his face, this is how he answers:

"Why do you call me good?" .... "No one is goodâ€â€except God alone. Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19

At the 'time' Christ MADE this statement, He was 'in the flesh'. And as admission that the flesh IS corruptable, (EVEN HIS), He made the statement that He made.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Acts 13:38-39

38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

I believe that this is what you are looking for. And please note, ALL that BELIEVE. Now, was it ONLY preached that we are to 'believe' that Christ died for our sins? NO, for Christ HIMSELF offered WHAT we ARE to believe. There is wisdom AND understanding that we ARE to 'believe' that goes BEYOND the simply 'belief' that we can BE forgiven.

As I have stated PREVIOUS. It goes a 'bit' deeper than a 'simple' confession. For even those that follow Satan are 'able' to offer FALSE testimony. A weak witness does NOT a 'Christian' MAKE.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

At the 'time' Christ MADE this statement, He was 'in the flesh'. And as admission that the flesh IS corruptable, (EVEN HIS), He made the statement that He made.

MEC

Boy, you are really going off the deep end now....You by this statement are saying Jesus sinned.... :o

 

[AVBunyan]

38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Well, at least the word justified is in there. Not to be picky but you have yet to give me verses on the actual gospel Paul preached. What must the sinner believe to be saved or what will he believe once he is saved.
BTW - I understand one’s “believing†doesn’t save. You are hinting that it is more than just a “profession†– OK then…what else is there Mec – just what is your take on how the sinner is justified?

1. Leading those that follow into SELF DELUSION. BELIVING that they can TALK themselves INTO 'being' a Christian RATHER than following the example as offered.

2. Can one 'work' their way to heaven'? BY NO MEANS. But ONCE one IS saved they will show the evidence in the CHANGE of heart that has taken place. Their WORKS WILL reflect their Savior.

OK Mec - #1 hints that by following an example makes one a true Christian.
Yet #2 (Which I agree here) says different – It says works are just evidence of salvation. OK – which is it #1 or #2?

Hey Mec – since you like to type (nothing wrong with this) how about typing out your understanding of the plan of salvation – What do you tell the sinner? It doesn’t have to be long. What about it Mec – give it a shot – let’s see if you can condense the essence of the gospel as Paul preached it. I’d like to see this.

 

[AVBunyan]

For, ONCE Christ 'took on the flesh' and defeated death through a 'sinless' MORTAL life, HE TOO became HOLY and GOOD.

At the 'time' Christ MADE this statement, He was 'in the flesh'. And as admission that the flesh IS corruptable, (EVEN HIS), He made the statement that He made.MEC

Boy, you are really going off the deep end now....You by this statement are saying Jesus sinned.... :o

Good observation JG - let's turn the screws a bit here...

Well Mec – While we are here what about this above statements?
A simple...Yes or No…was Christ at one time not holy or GOOD and then “became HOLY and GOOD�

Keep it simple Mec.

 

[MarkT]

Have you considered Jesus Words on this matter? If you called Him good to his face, this is how he answers:

"Why do you call me good?" .... "No one is goodâ€â€except God alone. Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19

Christ became a servant. He was the faithful and true servant of God to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, 'Behold, my servant whom I have chosen' Isa. 42:1 and Matthew 12:18 A servant isn't called good for doing what his master tells him to do. And the wicked will not call him good when he comes back to repay them with affliction. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction; always being in the process of destruction but never being completely destroyed.

 

[Veritas]

MarkT, your explaination doesn't address Jesus' second statement "No one is good - except God alone."

Is Jesus good? Yes or No.

 

[jgredline]

Craig
''Great observation'' and a classic example of someone with out the Holy Spirits guidance taking scripture out of context...Let take a closer look....

Mark 10: 18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’â€Â
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.â€Â
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.â€Â
22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

In verse 18 we see Jesus challenging the man’s false perception of good as something measured by human achievement...... No one is good, absolutely perfect, except God alone, The man needed to see himself in the context of God’s perfect character. Jesus’ response did not deny His own deity but was a veiled claim to it. The man, unwittingly calling Him''good'' needed to perceive Jesus’ true identity......

In verse 19 and 20, Jesus brings up part of the 10 commandments knowing that this man (see verse 20) has kept them....Notice also that in Verse 20 the man drops the ''Good''...BECAUSE HE KNEW JESUS WAS SPEAKING OF HIM......

Then we look in Verse 20 and 21 and and the scriptures tell us that Jesus Loved him deeply as he saw ''beneath this mans religious works'' and his real love for his wealth and he walked away sad.....

So this man went to Jesus wanting to be a part of the ''GOOD CLUB'' but instead received a rebuke from God himself....

 

[AVBunyan]

Regarding:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

My "parapharase" -

Jesus - "Do you know why you are calling me good? It is because I am good. And since there is only one that is good, that is God, then this makes me God."

God bless

 

[jgredline]

Regarding:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

My "parapharase" -

Jesus - "Do you know why you are calling me good? It is because I am good. And since there is only one that is good, that is God, then this makes me God."

God bless

AV, I chuckled, because your ''paraphrase'' is accurate....and yet even with that, those who think Jesus sinned and do not believe he is God will still not get it. :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

Jesus - "Do you know why you are calling me good? It is because I am good. And since there is only one that is good, that is God, then this makes me God."

Yes, it IS accurate and the verse in it's original syntax is inline with how He/they would "talk" in their culture.

Another example: here is Mary asking her Son to do something about the wine "situation" at the wedding;

And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. (John 2:3)

Not once did she actually ask Him to make water into wine; but to Him, the implications were clear.

When my boss, who is Jewish, says to me, "Did you know the light is not working in my office?" I know he means, "Vic, please replace the bulb in my office."



Hey AV, you want justification verses? I know a few. :wink: