Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

[jgredline]

While I am not speak for J, the promise that I have from the Word of God is that Christ's death is sufficient to cover ALL my sins - past, present, and future. As one who believes in the Lordship of Jesus Christ - that he came to be my propiatation (sp), I know that Christ's sacrifice has covered my sins.

However, this does not give me a license to sin - but rather, because of my LOVE for Christ, and recognizing what He did for me, and my reliance on the Holy Spirit - I can overcome sin. Will I continue to sin? Yes. Does Christ's sacrifice cover my sins? Yes! Praise God.

A DOUBLE AMEN...

I will be back to address the other posters shortly.

 

[Imagican]

While I am not speak for J, the promise that I have from the Word of God is that Christ's death is sufficient to cover ALL my sins - past, present, and future. As one who believes in the Lordship of Jesus Christ - that he came to be my propiatation (sp), I know that Christ's sacrifice has covered my sins.

However, this does not give me a license to sin - but rather, because of my LOVE for Christ, and recognizing what He did for me, and my reliance on the Holy Spirit - I can overcome sin. Will I continue to sin? Yes. Does Christ's sacrifice cover my sins? Yes! Praise God.

What are the consequences of that sin? That it will be burned up, that I will not be rewarded in heaven with crowns of glory to present to my Lord!

You obviously MISSED my point. It had NOTHING to do with YOUR sins or mine. It had to do with Christ fulfilling His 'purpose'. Could Christ have died for our sins IF He had 'been' a sinner? Of course NOT. And this WAS the point, Christ offering that 'there is ONLY ONE that is 'good' and this BEING God', He was simply pointing out that there is NO flesh that is 'good', for EVEN HE had NOT YET 'become' PERFECT in 'the flesh'. For His LIFE was NOT OVER yet. And there was STILL the possibility of His falling to sin.

And THIS is where a 'belief' that Jesus WAS God is SO damaging. It 'takes away' from what CHRIST performed and INSTEAD focuses this 'accomplishment' ON GOD, One who IS UNABLE TO SIN. Christ could SURELY have sinned IF He had SO CHOSEN. That HE DIDN'T is what made it POSSIBLE to DIE for our sins.

But, to 'believe' that Jesus Christ WAS God in the flesh is to TOTALLY ignore the sacrifice that Christ MADE.


MEC

 

[Veritas]

Doppledanger wrote:
Both of these arguments are right and wrong. Both of you are also stubborn and straining nats, and fitting camels through a needle.

So, what's the gnat and what's the camel? And which arguements are you talking about? I assuming you believe that our belief in Jesus' deity doesn't matter.

MarkT, Revelation 2:12-17 talks about a double-edged sword, but doesn't say Jesus is evil. I'd like to know what your answer is to my question about good and evil being absolute or relative and defined by us.

Imagican wrote:
But, to 'believe' that Jesus Christ WAS God in the flesh is to TOTALLY ignore the sacrifice that Christ MADE.

We have God emptying himself, and sacrificing some of His qualities to become like us.

He sacrificed so much that He let Himself endure temptation just like we do.

God is the source of all life, and somehow, He sacrificed even that and died for us. God sacrificed Himself TOTALLY and beyond our understanding.

But, how awesome it is that we can relate to God so TOTALLY.

 

[Vic C.]

jr

Just admit you're wrong about the one statement. He was not saying he was God.

I think it's you who should admit he's wrong, not Jav, not AV and not myself.

Absolutely not. He is not asking him if he knows why he called him good. There is no, 'do you know why you are calling me good.' And Jesus is not saying he is good. In fact he is saying, 'only God is good'. What nonsense....

You totally missed the mark with that statement. It proves you don't really understand the culture in which Jesus lived and conversed in 2,000 years ago. Actually, it's not much different now. If someone were to call out to me and say, "Yo junior, do me a favor." I might respond just like Jesus and ask, "Why did you just call me junior? Only men named after their fathers are called junior".

Why, you ask... I was named after my dad.

 

[Vic C.]

Oh, one more thing, because I find this insulting and blasphemous:

Quote:
MarkT, your explaination doesn't address Jesus' second statement "No one is good - except God alone."

Is Jesus good? Yes or No.

Nope. Jesus has nothing to do with being good. Again, you're misunderstanding because you're seeing him as God. If you send a servant to do good in your name, do you call the servant good? Or if you send him to do evil in your name, do you call him evil?

1 Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Mark, you statement that Jesus was not good is infuriating!!! :x

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

I know Veritas it was sorta a mixed message but i intended it that way. Immanuel one of Christ's names means "God with us". I really don't have time right now to debate it, Anyways, Cya all!

 

[jgredline]

Sin is to do with the law, jr. And as Paul said, "the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law." Romans 3:21, and, "No human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law." Romans 3:20

Ok, what does this have to do with according you, ''Jesus is not good?''

Jesus said, "The Law and the prophets were until John" Luke 16:16 So since John, we're looking at faith which is reckoned as righteousness. I agree Jesus kept the commandments perfectly; he was without sin. But he taught us only God is good. What it means is God gave us Jesus. God gives us the Spirit through him and good gifts. Even Jesus would not say he was good. He didn't glorify himself because his glory was from God. He said, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God." John 8:54 We are not good yet God in his Word gave us the promise of eternal life with him by being faithful to and having faith in his Son, Jesus Christ. I can't say Jesus was good, when he himself would not say he was good. I understand he was sent by God. God is the Father; the true God.

Sorry Bundy, but your wrong again....When the Father is Glorified, Jesus is Glorified, When Jesus is Glorified, the fatther is Glorified, for you see they are one.....

Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:


Bundy...You do know who the son of man is right? :-?

Now Bundy...The only way possible for Jesus not to be good, is if he sinned....Since you admit Jesus is without sin, that makes him ''perfect''ly good!!!!!!!

 

[jgredline]

jr

Just admit you're wrong about the one statement. He was not saying he was God.

 

[jgredline]

UNTRUE, Christ had NOT taken on the 'sin of the world YET'. There was STILL time left for Him to ABANDON His purpose. He COULD have sinned. Until His ACTUAL death upon the cross, He was on shaky ground. His prayers for strength are PURE indication that He became 'WEAKER' the closer He came to the END.

j, HOW MANY SINS does it TAKE to BE a sinner? What if the ONE sin that you committed was the DAY of your death?

MEC

Perhaps your ''Jesus'' could have sinned,

2 Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

but My Jesus who is God, the second person of the Godhead, could not have sinned.....P.S...My Jesus can also Atone for sin because he is sinless God....

 

[MarkT]

MarkT, Revelation 2:12-17 talks about a double-edged sword, but doesn't say Jesus is evil. I'd like to know what your answer is to my question about good and evil being absolute or relative and defined by us.

Quote:
Imagican wrote:
But, to 'believe' that Jesus Christ WAS God in the flesh is to TOTALLY ignore the sacrifice that Christ MADE.


We have God emptying himself, and sacrificing some of His qualities to become like us.

He sacrificed so much that He let Himself endure temptation just like we do.

God is the source of all life, and somehow, He sacrificed even that and died for us. God sacrificed Himself TOTALLY and beyond our understanding.

But, how awesome it is that we can relate to God so TOTALLY.

Then it wouldn't be like Abraham's sacrifice. God sacrificing himself is totally wrong. I didn't say Jesus was evil or good, Veritas. The question of his goodness is something the scholars are interested in. Like how high up is up. But what interests the scholars does not interest me. It's like, 'what would Jesus wear? What would Jesus do? Was Jesus married?' The Bible says, only God is good. That's what I believe. You know what's good Veritas. Doesn't your conscience inform you? Doesn't everything good like love, hope, joy, peace, faith, perseverance, etc. come from God?

God is good and kind and love and right in his judgment of us. We don't do good. We are evil. And God gets angry. And when God gets angry, his Word gets angry and when his Word gets angry and God sends him, there will be blood on the streets. Blood on the streets! Have you no fear of God? Or is your fear of God learned by rote; a philosophy of the philosophers. They are of the devil, Veritas. You are of God. We get pulled into these vain discussions by the scholars who run this forum but we're not here to teach them. I'm telling you the truth. We are here because it is God's will that he will lose none of his own.

 

[Solo]

I'm telling you the truth.

You have shown that you reject the truth, and walk in the unbelief perpetrated upon you by your own desire. When you repent and believe what the HOLY SPIRIT is telling you, then you can be born again, born of God; after which you can see and enter the Kingdom of God.

Until then you are one of many deceived by the enemy of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Imagican]

We have God emptying himself, and sacrificing some of His qualities to become like us.

He sacrificed so much that He let Himself endure temptation just like we do.

God is the source of all life, and somehow, He sacrificed even that and died for us. God sacrificed Himself TOTALLY and beyond our understanding.

But, how awesome it is that we can relate to God so TOTALLY.

No, we have Christ 'emtying HIMSELF' to become as one of us. Steping DOWN from the 'side' of God to dwell among us and OFFER us The Word of God and MAKE the ULTIMATE sacrifice that ONLY The Son of God COULD make. Following the WILL of God all the way to the CROSS.

Have YOU NOT read, 'This IS my beloved SON in whom '''I''' am well pleased.

Your statement would COMPLETELY negate God offering this statement IF Christ were INDEED God Himself.

Deity? NO DOUBT. AS God's SON, Christ was CERTAINLY worthy of our worship; AS the SON of God. But God IS STILL the Father regardless of the deity of Christ.

MEC

 

[Guest]

MEC - Phillippians 2:6 clearly states that He (Jesus) existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped (utilized or asserted)."

There are two very important keys here:

1) Existed in the form of God

2) Did not regard equality with God

------------------

1) Jesus 'existed' in the form of God. While we are made in His image, we do not exist in the 'form" of God.

2) This says that Jesus possess equality with God. Noone else is equal to God, except God. Therefore, Jesus is God since He is equal to God.

 

[MarkT]

You totally missed the mark with that statement. It proves you don't really understand the culture in which Jesus lived and conversed in 2,000 years ago. Actually, it's not much different now. If someone were to call out to me and say, "Yo junior, do me a favor." I might respond just like Jesus and ask, "Why did you just call me junior? Only men named after their fathers are called junior".

I don't understand your analogy. Why would someone call you junior if he didn't know you? And why would you say, 'Why did you call me junior?' to someone who knows you? Is it because you don't like being called 'junior'? Or are you paranoid that the man seems to know about you?

Anyways the man called him Good Teacher. When people do good, they are called good. It's not blasphemy to call someone 'good'. It's not making them God. The man in this case wasn't calling him God. The people who followed Jesus saw him doing good; healing the sick and feeding the hungry. And Jesus said his teaching was from God. So the man called him 'Good Teacher'. But Jesus didn't object to being called Teacher. Why? Because he was the Teacher. He said, 'Why do you call me good', as if to say, 'Even though my teaching comes from God, only God is good.' Which means he was not making himself God or equal to God.

 

[Imagican]

I know Veritas it was sorta a mixed message but i intended it that way. Immanuel one of Christ's names means "God with us". I really don't have time right now to debate it, Anyways, Cya all!

Christ was FILLED with the Spirit of God. He PERSONIFIED God THROUGH The Spirit. Remember? 'This IS my 'beloved Son' in whom 'I' am well pleased'. A DIRECT statement that Christ WAS NOT GOD Himself, (The Father), but The Son of God. IF Christ is NOT the Son of God, then we have been UTTERLY decieved. For God called Christ HIS SON, Christ called Himself the Son of God. And the apostles called Christ the Son of God.

And NOT ONLY do we have their COLLECTIVE words concerning Christ BEING The Son, we also have Christ OPENLY admitting that the power that He weilded CAME FROM THE FATHER, (God). The WORDS that He offered 'WERE NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN HIM ''''BY THE FATHER''''.

I am UTTERLY confused as to HOW this could be SO difficult to understand. while Christ was 'in the flesh' GOD WAS STILL IN HEAVEN. We KNOW this for Christ PRAYED to The Father OVER AND OVER. There WERE TWO distinct entities and STILL ARE. Christ sits at the RIGHT HAND of God. He is NOT God Himself but the Son of God. Deity NO DOUBT, for HE IS The Son of God. The ONLY begotten.

And ONCE again, When Christ returns to this Earth, God will STILL BE in Heaven. Two DISTINCT entities acting in complete harmony for the 'sake of mankind'. One IN LOVE and understanding, but SEPARATE as in Father AND Son.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

You have shown that you reject the truth, and walk in the unbelief perpetrated upon you by your own desire. When you repent and believe what the HOLY SPIRIT is telling you, then you can be born again, born of God; after which you can see and enter the Kingdom of God.

Until then you are one of many deceived by the enemy of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

MEC

 

[Guest]

MEC - how can one exist in the 'form of God' and not be God?

 

[MarkT]

how can one exist in the 'form of God' and not be God?

We're responding to your post. Your post is a form of you. Your voice is a form of you. Your physical appearance is a form of you. Your name is a form of you. The light that was in the beginning with God was in a form of God.

 

[MarkT]

Equality with God is not something you can grasp. It is not something to be comprehended. It is not something you can seize. It is not something to reach out and grab.

 

[Guest]

We're responding to your post. Your post is a form of you. Your voice is a form of you. Your physical appearance is a form of you. Your name is a form of you. The light that was in the beginning with God was in a form of God.

But there is a difference of being in the "form of" and being "made in the likeness of".

Being in the "form of God" speaks to being equal to God.

My voice, my physical appearance is who I am - it is not a 'form' of me.

The "light" that was in the beginning was not only with God, but IS God.