Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

[AVBunyan]

Yes, it IS accurate and the verse in it's original syntax is inline with how He/they would "talk" in their culture.

AV, I chuckled, because your ''paraphrase'' is accurate....and yet even with that, those who think Jesus sinned and do not believe he is God will still not get it.

Thanks gang...

You know folks, as you both know, the verse was clear without my ad-lib commentary but people want to corrupt the simplicity that is in Christ. You have to work real hard to make these simple verses on Christ's deity mean anything other than what they say unless...unless...the person just can't see it. :o
1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

God bless :wink:

 

[MarkT]

MarkT, your explaination doesn't address Jesus' second statement "No one is good - except God alone."

Is Jesus good? Yes or No.

Nope. Jesus has nothing to do with being good. Again, you're misunderstanding because you're seeing him as God. If you send a servant to do good in your name, do you call the servant good? Or if you send him to do evil in your name, do you call him evil? What Jesus said was God alone is good. That is our perspective. Jesus was faithful. Yes he kept the commandments which is good. But that isn't the way we look at him. God didn't send him to earth to keep the commandments. He didn't say, 'Jesus, go to earth and keep the commandments and be good!' That's completely missing the point. We don't look at keeping the commandments to be good or to be called good. We keep the commandments because we love the commandments and we love God. We do not call ourselves good. We are sinners. We say God is good. We don't take credit for God working in us. We don't pat ourselves on the back for the works of God. Anything good that we do as servants we thank God for doing it. We don't know how to do good. Besides that good is whatever God says good is. We don't decide what is good.

The Jews who crucified him didn't think he was good. There are people who hate him for no reason. Some people think God is a monster.

However God's Word is his servant to do both good and evil. He is a two edged sword doing good to those who love God and evil to the ones who hate God. Jesus is the righteousness of God. Let me ask you, when Christ returns will you call him good if he throws you into the pit for not knowing God?

 

[MarkT]

Look at his words. That statement alone implies he was not God.

 

[jgredline]

It is quite cool to see how the syntax of the Spanish Language, the Old KJV and the Greek is pretty much the same.....But no matter what, with out the Holy Spirit it is but a book of riddles....Here we have 4 versions of the scripture including AV's paraphraze....and they all Say Jesus is God....

Yes, it IS accurate and the verse in it's original syntax is inline with how He/they would "talk" in their culture.

Another example: here is Mary asking her Son to do something about the wine "situation" at the wedding;

And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. (John 2:3)

Not once did she actually ask Him to make water into wine; but to Him, the implications were clear.

When my boss, who is Jewish, says to me, "Did you know the light is not working in my office?" I know he means, "Vic, please replace the bulb in my office."

My "parapharase" -
Jesus - "Do you know why you are calling me good? It is because I am good. And since there is only one that is good, that is God, then this makes me God."

Mark 10:18
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.


18 Y Jesús le dijo: ¿Por qué me llamas bueno? Nadie es bueno, sino sólo uno, Dios.
19 Tú sabes los mandamientos: “No mates, no cometas adulterio, no hurtes, no des falso testimonio, no defraudes, honra a tu padre y a tu madreâ€Â.
20 Y él le dijo: Maestro, todo esto lo he guardado desde mi juventud.
21 Jesús, mirándolo, lo amó y le dijo: Una cosa te falta: ve y vende cuanto tienes y da a los pobres, y tendrás tesoro en el cielo; y ven, sígueme.
22 Pero él, afligido por estas palabras, se fue triste, porque era dueño de muchos bienes.


18 ο δε ιησους ειπεν αυτω τι με λεγεις αγαθον ουδεις αγαθος ει μη εις ο θεος
19 τας εντολας οιδας μη μοιχευσης μη φονευσης μη κλεψης μη ψευδομαρτυρησης μη αποστερησης τιμα τον πατερα σου και την μητερα
20 ο δε αποκριθεις ειπεν αυτω διδασκαλε ταυτα παντα εφυλαξαμην εκ νεοτητος μου
21 ο δε ιησους εμβλεψας αυτω ηγαπησεν αυτον και ειπεν αυτω εν σοι υστερει υπαγε οσα εχεις πωλησον και δος τοις πτωχοις και εξεις θησαυρον εν ουρανω και δευρο ακολουθει μοι αρας τον σταυρον
22 ο δε στυγνασας επι τω λογω απηλθεν λυπουμενος ην γαρ εχων κτηματα πολλα

 

[MarkT]

Regarding:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

My "parapharase" -

Jesus - "Do you know why you are calling me good? It is because I am good. And since there is only one that is good, that is God, then this makes me God."

Absolutely not. He is not asking him if he knows why he called him good. There is no, 'do you know why you are calling me good.' And Jesus is not saying he is good. In fact he is saying, 'only God is good'. What nonsense. Jesus was making a true statement. There was no lie in him; no deception. Certainly no one would think he was saying he was God if he heard Jesus make this statement. In fact the implication is he is not God. This was a rebuke. To paraphrase, Jesus said, 'Why call me good? Only God is good.' The message is, 'Don't call me good'. God is good. Do what God commanded. You know the commandments that God gave Moses: Do not kill. Do not commit adultery, ... I'm not teaching something different.

 

[jgredline]

Absolutely not. He is not asking him if he knows why he called him good. There is no, 'do you know why you are calling me good.' And Jesus is not saying he is good. In fact he is saying, 'only God is good'. What nonsense. Jesus was making a true statement. There was no lie in him; no deception. Certainly no one would think he was saying he was God if he heard Jesus make this statement. In fact the implication is he is not God. This was a rebuke. To paraphrase, Jesus said, 'Why call me good? Only God is good.' The message is, 'Don't call me good'.

Bundy
So if Jesus is not good as you claim, then what would ''not make him good''?...The only thing that would not make him good is sin....This is where your interpretation and theology falls apart....How could Jesus atone for sin when he is no good? When he is a sinner :-? ...Sorry Bundy, but your wrong...I suggest you get born again and then you will see thw truth and truth will set u free....

 

[MarkT]

In verse 18 we see Jesus challenging the man’s false perception of good as something measured by human achievement...... No one is good, absolutely perfect, except God alone, The man needed to see himself in the context of God’s perfect character. Jesus’ response did not deny His own deity but was a veiled claim to it. The man, unwittingly calling Him''good'' needed to perceive Jesus’ true identity......

A veiled claim? So the statement wasn't true? Are you saying Jesus deliberately misled him into thinking he wasn't God when he was? Because that's what the statement would amount to if Jesus was God. There is no way to understand he is God from his statement. If I said, 'Why call me rich? Bill Gates is rich', would you think I was Bill Gates? Of course not. But if I was Bill Gates, then why would I make that statement unless I was trying to deceive you into thinking I wasn't. Jr, You're calling Jesus a liar and a deceiver. Your understanding might make sense to a deceptive spirit but it doesn't make sense to me.

In verse 19 and 20, Jesus brings up part of the 10 commandments knowing that this man (see verse 20) has kept them....Notice also that in Verse 20 the man drops the ''Good''...BECAUSE HE KNEW JESUS WAS SPEAKING OF HIM......

Indeed. He did not not call him 'good' again because he listened to Jesus who told him, basically, 'don't call me good.'

Then we look in Verse 20 and 21 and and the scriptures tell us that Jesus Loved him deeply as he saw ''beneath this mans religious works'' and his real love for his wealth and he walked away sad.....

So this man went to Jesus wanting to be a part of the ''GOOD CLUB'' but instead received a rebuke from God himself....

No. Jesus told him to sell what he had and give it to the poor and he would have treasure in heaven. Jesus spoke truly. It's also true the man walked away because he had great possessions. But Jesus was not rebuking him here. He was telling him the truth and he was teaching the disciples that having money and great possessions make it hard to enter the kingdom but all things are possible with God.

 

[jgredline]

So bundy
Can you address my post..

Bundy
So if Jesus is not good as you claim, then what would ''not make him good''?...The only thing that would not make him good is sin....This is where your interpretation and theology falls apart....How could Jesus atone for sin when he is no good? When he is a sinner ...Sorry Bundy, but your wrong...I suggest you get born again and then you will see thw truth and truth will set u free....
________________

 

[MarkT]

Bundy
So if Jesus is not good as you claim, then what would ''not make him good''?...The only thing that would not make him good is sin....This is where your interpretation and theology falls apart....How could Jesus atone for sin when he is no good? When he is a sinner ...Sorry Bundy, but your wrong...I suggest you get born again and then you will see thw truth and truth will set u free....

Sin is to do with the law, jr. And as Paul said, "the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law." Romans 3:21, and, "No human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law." Romans 3:20

Jesus said, "The Law and the prophets were until John" Luke 16:16 So since John, we're looking at faith which is reckoned as righteousness. I agree Jesus kept the commandments perfectly; he was without sin. But he taught us only God is good. What it means is God gave us Jesus. God gives us the Spirit through him and good gifts. Even Jesus would not say he was good. He didn't glorify himself because his glory was from God. He said, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God." John 8:54 We are not good yet God in his Word gave us the promise of eternal life with him by being faithful to and having faith in his Son, Jesus Christ. I can't say Jesus was good, when he himself would not say he was good. I understand he was sent by God. God is the Father; the true God.

 

[Veritas]

MarkT, I'm praying for you. I hope you can someday see Jesus for who He is. I know you think we are all mistaken, but I hope scripture will catch up with you and show you Truth. I pray it contines to reveal Truth to all of us...

MarkT wrote:
However God's Word is his servant to do both good and evil. He is a two edged sword doing good to those who love God and evil to the ones who hate God.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

I see the words: living, active, penetrating, judging... but no evil. Check the context around it too. You won't find evil in there describing Christ. Rather we find this:

but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we areâ€â€yet was without sin. Hebrews 4:15

MarkT wrote:
Jesus is the righteousness of God. Let me ask you, when Christ returns will you call him good if he throws you into the pit for not knowing God?

MarkT, are good and evil absolute, or is it relative based on us?

 

[MarkT]

jr

Just admit you're wrong about the one statement. He was not saying he was God.

 

[MarkT]

Veritas

Revelation 2:12-17
12 "And to the angel of the church in Per'gamum write: 'The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword. 13 "'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; you hold fast my name and you did not deny my faith even in the days of An'tipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice immorality. 15 So you also have some who hold the teaching of the Nicola'itans. 16 Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Both of these arguments are right and wrong. Both of you are also stubborn and straining nats, and fitting camels through a needle. Also it may be suggested that the rich man's son inherited his wealth. And albeit, through deceitful gain, by ripping off the poor, which is why he needed to give it back, and inherit what Christ was offering him. (tradition says, anyways) Which is the basis for the pledge of the earlirest new testament church under Peter, James and John.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

It should also be noted that some are claimed to be keep blind so that they maybe saved later on someday, plus theres the millenium. also the reference to the fact you may reject Christ, but not the Holy Spirit. The point was if the rich man considered him good & wise he might as well consider him God. Because no one is good and wise but God. But sense you consider him good and wise, (and every human would have to ) then you might as well consider him God or Godlike. Cause the gap between you and Christ is as infinite as the gap between you and God. Which raises another good point. Why would Christ say some of you will do greater things than him? In a way, I'm just pulling all your strings, but not really, just making you think. AV Bunyan knows this all to well from his posts, I've seen. With all that being said. Theres more than one judgement. And the message Christ preached was rejected also, as well as Paul. Can a Jew be saved? Or do they get special privledges because of Abraham?

The Gospels
--------------
THE FIRST ADVENT. The coming of the "Son of Man" to present the kingdom. The rejection of the kingdom and crucifixion of the King.

The Acts and the Earlier Pauline Epistles
---------------------------------------------
THE KINGDOM RE-OFFERED. The Acts and earlier Pauline Epistles (Acts iii. 19, 20). The "Signs and Wonders of the Holy Ghost (Heb. ii. 3, 4). The offer rejected (Acts xxviii. 25, 26).

The Later Pauline Epistles
------------------------------
THE KINGDOM IN ABEYANCE. The "Not Yet" of Heb. ii. 8. The Mystery revealed and consummated, Rom. xvi. 25, 26; Eph. iii. 1-4; Col. i. 5 - ii. 3; 1 Tim. iii. 16; Phil. iii. 14.

The Apocalypse
------------------
THE SECOND ADVENT. The coming of the "Son of Man" to set up the kingdom in power and great glory. The establishing of the kingdom and the crowning of the King.

Just something to think about!

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Delete Double Post

 

[Imagican]

Boy, you are really going off the deep end now....You by this statement are saying Jesus sinned.... :o

NO, I did NOT even INDICATE that Christ sinned. I simply stated that the 'flesh' IS corruptable. Christ OVERCAME sin by overcoming temptation. But in warning others NOT to 'call Him GOOD', He simply pointed out that there is ONLY ONE 'ultimate' SOURCE of GOOD; The Father, GOD. And only one FORM of GOOD, and that BEING SPIRIT.

Christ stated OVER and OVER again that what WORDS He offered WERE NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN HIM, by The Father. He NEVER took credit for 'being God', Always offered that the power that allowed Him to perform that which He did was FROM God.

So, NO, Christ DID NOT sin.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

So bundy
Can you address my post..

Bundy
So if Jesus is not good as you claim, then what would ''not make him good''?...The only thing that would not make him good is sin....This is where your interpretation and theology falls apart....How could Jesus atone for sin when he is no good? When he is a sinner ...Sorry Bundy, but your wrong...I suggest you get born again and then you will see thw truth and truth will set u free....
________________

UNTRUE, Christ had NOT taken on the 'sin of the world YET'. There was STILL time left for Him to ABANDON His purpose. He COULD have sinned. Until His ACTUAL death upon the cross, He was on shaky ground. His prayers for strength are PURE indication that He became 'WEAKER' the closer He came to the END.

j, HOW MANY SINS does it TAKE to BE a sinner? What if the ONE sin that you committed was the DAY of your death?

MEC

 

[Guest]

UNTRUE, Christ had NOT taken on the 'sin of the world YET'. There was STILL time left for Him to ABANDON His purpose. He COULD have sinned. Until His ACTUAL death upon the cross, He was on shaky ground. His prayers for strength are PURE indication that He became 'WEAKER' the closer He came to the END.

j, HOW MANY SINS does it TAKE to BE a sinner? What if the ONE sin that you committed was the DAY of your death?

MEC

While I am not speak for J, the promise that I have from the Word of God is that Christ's death is sufficient to cover ALL my sins - past, present, and future. As one who believes in the Lordship of Jesus Christ - that he came to be my propiatation (sp), I know that Christ's sacrifice has covered my sins.

However, this does not give me a license to sin - but rather, because of my LOVE for Christ, and recognizing what He did for me, and my reliance on the Holy Spirit - I can overcome sin. Will I continue to sin? Yes. Does Christ's sacrifice cover my sins? Yes! Praise God.

What are the consequences of that sin? That it will be burned up, that I will not be rewarded in heaven with crowns of glory to present to my Lord!

 

[AVBunyan]

While I am not speak for J, the promise that I have from the Word of God is that Christ's death is sufficient to cover ALL my sins - past, present, and future. As one who believes in the Lordship of Jesus Christ - that he came to be my propiatation (sp), I know that Christ's sacrifice has covered my sins.

However, this does not give me a license to sin - but rather, because of my LOVE for Christ, and recognizing what He did for me, and my reliance on the Holy Spirit - I can overcome sin. Will I continue to sin? Yes. Does Christ's sacrifice cover my sins? Yes! Praise God.

Nicely put - I'll amen this.

God bless

 

[Imagican]

Av,

I assume then that THIS is what you are looking for:

Romans 3:28

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

And THIS IS a 'true saying', BUT, there is MORE to it than a 'word'; Faith. For we have example over and over of the apostles themselves LACKING faith. Christ standing beside them and their faith faltering.

Through The Spirit there WILL be offered LOVE. And LOVE was the PURPOSE of the commandments; to teach LOVE of God and LOVE of 'each other'. There can BE NO SPIRIT without the fruit of LOVE being present in one's walk. So, regardless of one's WORDS of faith, for there to BE faith in the ONE TRUE GOD, there MUST be LOVE present. And a MAJOR 'part' of LOVE IS forgiveness.

I know what you would LIKE to believe Av. You, obviously, are a 'church man'. The churches have spent MUCH time 'trying' to condense it down to it's MOST compact form in order to deliver the 'package' as easily as possible. This does NOT 'make it truth'.

You would have me believe that it's OK to sin. That 'we all do it' so it's OK. We ARE all sinners, so it's OK. WRONG. One MUST come to the 'truth' in order to be ABLE to overcome sin.

Tell me this guys, since YOU have it ALL figured out. What does this MEAN; "Straight is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth unto life and few there be that find it."? PLEASE explain this to me if YOUR understanding IS correct. And WHY should we 'Run the race as if we MEAN to WIN it'? Why not 'just walk'?

And WHO are those that Christ will say; "Go away from me, for I know NOT who you are"?

No, MANY will be sorely disappointed on that day that they stand before God and His Son to be judged of their WORKS. (Another little 'tid-bit' of inside information for those that MIGHT NOT be aware; it is NOT ''What'' you DO so much as WHY you do it. Upon judgement it is YOUR HEART that will be judged. And THAT, my friends, IS the WHY). For MANY have been 'taught' that it's simply a matter of SAYING that they ARE 'saved'. Yet we HAVE The Word. For those that REFUSE to EAT of it, there is LITTLE that they are ABLE to understand. And therefore LITTLE that they are ABLE to BE.
Fear and trembling folks. A recognition of JUST HOW NASTY we REALLY ARE. And a SINCERE WISH to be 'something MORE'.

Repentance, Submission, REGENERATION, Faith and LOVE. And an ADHERENCE to LOVE is what MATTERS MOST. And this is NOT possible without Christ IN one's heart. Yet there ARE those that would PICK ONE and insist that 'it is ENOUGH'.

No Av, there IS not 'magical statement' or 'SIMPLE WAY' to Salvation. And ANY church that teaches such is leading those that they teach in the WRONG direction. Watered-down words mean little except to those that are UNABLE to drink from the water of LIFE.

Even though; ONCE one 'comes to the TRUTH' it IS simple to understand, Coming to it can be ALL but impossible for MOST. For MOST will simply read and see what they WANT to. NEVER able to come to the REALITY that it is God's will that they MUST accept in order to BE WORTHY. And the ONLY way that this is EVEN possible is through LOVE.

The scriptures that I offered that you dismissed so eagerly offer MUCH 'insight' into EXACTLY 'what' it IS to BE 'saved'. How one BECOMES 'saved' will ONLY be known upon judgement. Yes, there are those that THINK they are justified in their 'statement of faith', but time WILL tell whether they are correct or MISTAKEN. For MANY will be UTTERLY disappointed on that day.

Paul points out that we are to STRIVE for 'perfect understanding'. He mentions over and over the FACT that a 'man CAN be perfect'. NO, not in the dimension that YOU would perceive. Christ was the ONLY man that will EVER be this 'in the flesh', but IN understating of 'what MATTERS MOST' one CAN be 'perfect'. And THIS, my friend, IS what it TAKES to 'be saved'. For without it, one is ABLE to 'do' or 'BELIEVE' little that is ABLE to 'justify' their Salvation.

And this and other reasons are why it has been SO difficult for me to 'find' a church that I could actually be 'a PART' of. Upon listening to many of the 'cute' sermons offered, I can do nothing but be REPELLED by such lackadaisical
sheppards that teach such 'watered down Christianity'.

MEC