Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

Donations

Total amount
$1,592.00
Goal
$5,080.00
What I fail to understand is how Scripture can be presented, and it is overlooked. I was hoping that MarkT or MEC would atleast comment on it - but posts have come and gone, and no discussion of the True Source, the Word of God.
 
Imagican said:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.

FUNNY, but even though the CC IS mentioned in the APOSTLE'S Creed, there is NO MENTION of 'trinity' or even that which could be misconstrued into this 'belief'.

And THIS IS what WAS written between the second and seventh century AD.

The Nicean Creed, accepted by practically all Christians lays out the Church's belief in the Trinity. This was done in opposition to Arius, who, much like yourself, thought he had a pipeline to God in contradistinction to the rest of the Community of God.

It is very fortunate the Christ left an authoritative body of men to guide the Church, rather than a book that anybody could pick up and misinterpret, calling their own heretical ideas as "God inspired".

Regards
 
OK Folks....
I just finished deleting two pages of insults and nonsense and I am not done yet, but to the point where I can unlock it.....I am sure many will notice some of their post deleted and know I deleted many of mine also....
Here is the OP again...Blessings all....



I apologize to Mutz for any redundancy this thread has, but I will be taking a different approach than he did, although I applaud his stirring up of discussion by means of employing a poll.

I'm going to say something that may shock you so brace yourself. The reason belief in Jesus' diety is necessary is because you can believe in Jesus and yet not be saved. You are probably saying "What?!". Oh yes, but I didn't mean quite what you thought I meant. Allow me to explain myself.

Allow me to build up a background against which to examine this.

---------------------------------------------------------
Your kind of belief and desires affects what you believe in in your mind, and what you serve. Let's first take an example of sin, something which we all followed after when we were unbelievers. What does James say about sin? "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14-15). What James says here is also why some genuine Christians still sin, they have stuggles with desires in themself that are not submitted under the cross of Christ. These are desires that we carry into salvation with us from our previous unregenerate way of life. And when we sin after we have been saved what we do reflects something in us which we still desire and it shapes our actions. Take note of that word "shapes" for I will apply it here in a moment to my main point.

John Bevere in his excellent book "A Heart Ablaze" preaches extensively on the fear of God and focuses alot on Exodus in parallel with the NT. One of his main points that he makes is Paralleling the command in 2 Corinthians 7:1, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God", with God's command in Exodus to consecrate the People of Israel for 3 days at the foot of Mt. Sinai in preparation for God's coming Glory & Presence, also pointing out that Paul's reference to "having these promises" comes directly from God's promises in Exodus to the people (which Paul just got done summarizing in Chapter 6).

Now his point is that the people needed to "cleanse themselves from the filth of Egypt", because God commanded them to "wash their clothes" in their 3-day preparatory consecration at Sinai. Paul's parallel idea is "cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of [the garment of] the flesh and spirit." Why was this command given? Because they needed to cleanse themselves from their old ways in Egypt in order to be ready for God and recieve his promises. Yet we all know how it plays out, and it becomes the basis of my main point, so let's rehash it a bit:

They all were scared of God when he came down and told Moses to speak to God for them. And as a result they gravitated away from the mountain yet Moses by contrast came closer to God by coming up on the mountain. John Bevere in his book then points out something which he takes God as saying in a melancholy tone, almost moaning. Indeed, John Bevere even calls this the saddest verse in the OT, as he takes it: "Go, say to them, 'Return to your tents.'"

Here is the context of what God said:

Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me [God moans this - John Bevere says] and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!
Go, say to them, "Return to your tents."
'But as for you, stand here by Me." (Deuteronomy 5:29-31)

They couldn't come near God because they didn't fear him. God, according to John Bevere, is telling them to go back to their tents and "play church", but as for Moses God told him to come closer to him and have intimacy with him.

Now getting closer to my main point. Of those who shrinked away from God's presence they enticed Aaron to create for them a golden calf, and Aaron did it. The people called it their elohim and proclaimed a feast to Yahweh, attributing the calf to being Yahweh himself who delivered them from Egypt! This is precisely the idolatry that Paul was talking about in Romans when he said, "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. " (Romans 1:21-23). Now Aaron did this with the Golden Calf. Exodus says he "carved it with an engraving tool" he "formed" and "shaped" it, and in the process he changed the Glory of the incorruptible God (Yahweh) into a poor mockery of an imitation.

Why did Aaron create the calf and call it his God (Yahweh himself)? Because since he did not go up to the Mountain (though he was invited to go) he did not cleanse himself from the filth of Egypt and did not have himself changed by God as Moses did, the culture & lifestyle that he grew up in is what came out of him. This is John Bevere's main point in one of his chapters in A Heart Ablaze.

Idolatry was all the Israelites and Aaron had ever known in Egypt and since they were not changed by God they still desired things which they had not submitted to God, which shaped their view of God. Ezekiel 23:8 says, "She did not give up the prostitution she began in Egypt, when during her youth men slept with her, caressed her virgin bosom and poured out their lust upon her. " They never changed their idolatry, and it shaped their conception of God Almighty, and it came out of them in the expression of the golden calf.
---------------------------------------------------------

Now my main point: I said you can believe in Jesus and still not be saved. But I failed to say which Jesus. There ofcourse really isn't any more than one true Jesus, but in peoples minds there are. Paul warned explicitly against this saying, "For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully [being extremely sarcastic]" (2 Corinthians 11:4). Gnostics believe in "another Jesus" and they are not saved no matter how many points of similarity they have to the true faith of Jesus Christ. Why? Because they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into a mockery of the real thing. John's whole point in 1 John was to refute the Gnostic heresy, and prove them to be walking in darkness. This is what destroying the diety of Christ does and John in 1 John made it necessary to believe in Jesus' diety to believe in the real Jesus else you make a mockery of Jesus and are walking in darkness. And if you don't serve the real Jesus, you don't have the real gospel (Galatians 1:6-7), or the real faith. Not all who say to Jesus, "Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom." We must allow Jesus to transform our minds to see the truth (transform our mind from our old ways, or else we will make a Jesus after our own desires - a Jesus we "want to have")), so we do not prostitute the incorruptible image of God.
---------------------------------------------------------

Simply put the punch line is this: Some people do with Jesus what Aaron did with the Golden Calf, because they haven't had their mind transformed and they worship "another Jesus" of their own making. The diety of Christ is one part of believing in the real Jesus or we cannot understand who he is or what he really did for us.

"Do not be conformed [reduce to a likeness of something - like Aaron did for the calf] to this world,but be transformed [changed completely in mind by Christ] by the renewal of your mind." (Romans 12:2)


~Josh
 
cybershark5886 said:
God alone is truely holy and good. Is this an admission?

~Josh

UNTRUE.

For, ONCE Christ 'took on the flesh' and defeated death through a 'sinless' MORTAL life, HE TOO became HOLY and GOOD.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
UNTRUE. For, ONCE Christ 'took on the flesh' and defeated death through a 'sinless' MORTAL life, HE TOO became HOLY and GOOD.
MEC
By your statement are you saying at one time Christ was not holy and good?
 
j,

While I am able to appreciate your passion in your BELIEF, I belive that it is WRONG for you to INSIST upon that which is NEITHER Biblical nor offered THROUGH the Spirit to MANY that DISAGREE with your 'belief'. Let ME explain.

There is NOT ONE instance of Biblical PROOF of what you offer. I could quote scripture that OVER AND OVER states what one must do in order to 'be saved'. And NOT ONE LINE would state that one MUST accept or believe that Christ IS God Himself.

And from the perspective of THE BIBLE, it is THOSE that have 'chosen' to accept this 'trinity' that have ALTERED or CHANGED that offered through scripture.

NOT ONCE does the Bible offer that ONE MUST 'believe' that Christ IS God. The Bible explains over and over and over again that Christ IS The Son of God. PERIOD. Christ states OVER AND OVER AND OVER again that God IS HIS FATHER and that HE IS God's Son.

Now, by me ACCEPTING what is offered by God, Christ and His apostles, HOW HAVE I ALTERED ANYTHING? I have SIMPLY accepted WHAT I have been TOLD by God, Christ and the apostles. NOT 'choosing' to dwell in areas that have NOT been explicitly defined by God, Christ OR the apostles, I have been LED to accept EXACTLY what has been revealed. And the FRUIT is apparent in the 'changes' that have taken place in MY life.

There is ADEQUATE PROOF to plainly SHOW that 'trinity' was 'created' by MEN. Not offered by God, Christ OR the apostles. For there is NO 'trinity' in the Holy Bible. The WORD 'trinity' does NOT EVEN EXIST IN THE WORD.

You would state that MEN 'found' 'trinity' in the Word. I would REFUTE that and state that they ALREADY had 'trinity' in their previous pagan religion and simply transferred it over into 'their FORM' of Christianity. For OVER a HUNDRED years AFTER Christ's death there was NO MENTION of this 'man-made doctrine. And it took MUCH effort on the part of those that 'created' this 'trinity' to indoctrinate it INTO Christianity.

Now, I ask you POINT BLANK; Are you TRULY willing to place you reputation and your Salvation on the line by STATING that one MUST accept that Jesus Christ IS God in order to 'be saved'? Would you HONESTLY be SO engrossed in a 'concept' that you would 'believe' that it is YOUR belief in a 'doctrine' that is the deciding factor of 'who it' and who is NOT saved'?

For the Bible does NOT state that a 'belief' in 'trinity' is NEEDED. In fact, there is NO 'trinity' in The Word.

MEC
 
AVBunyan said:
By your statement are you saying at one time Christ was not holy and good?

Absolutely NOT. For Christ was Holy BEFORE, and BECAME Holy AFTER.

Av,

For those that 'believe' Christ IS God, there is little that I can offer concerning WHO Christ was and WHO Christ IS. My words can ONLY seem 'foolishness' to them that have 'accepted trinity'.

Christ existed BEFORE the 'creation of man'. But, in order to 'save' mankind, He NEEDED to 'take on the flesh' which was THE WILL of His Father. BUT, by taking on the 'flesh', He would be EXPOSED to the 'temptation of the flesh'. Fortunately for us, He overcame temptation, lived a sinless life, and DIED for OUR sins.

That would be an indication of THREE distinct personages of Christ. That which PRE-EXISTED in heaven, with God, and Christ that NOW sits at the right hand of God, triumphant over death and awaiting His Kingdom here on Earth. And Christ that LIVED among us. Remember when Christ stated that He was NOT to be touched, for He had NOT ascended unto the Father YET?

To believe that Christ IS God is to TAKE AWAY all that He lived and died for. For God cannot be tempted. God CANNOT sin. And, so far as what has been offered in The Word, God WILL NOT 'take on flesh' for ANY REASON.

So far as we KNOW, God is UNABLE to 'take on flesh'. For God IS Spirit. That He IS able to 'send' angels, His Son, or influence prophets is WITHOUT DOUBT. But we KNOW that NO MAN has EVER 'seen' God. Otherwise the scriptures LIE. And this I KNOW is NOT true. For the scriptures 'may have been' manipulated by men, but LIE they DO NOT.

And Av, PERHAPS this is EXACTLY WHY God NEEDED to have a Son. To be ABLE to 'take on the flesh' in order to LIVE among MAN.

So, we have Christ that WAS Holy 'before taking on the flesh', and Christ JUSTIFYING His Holiness in 'taking on the flesh and defeating death'. Giving US an example to follow. Allowing us a KNOWLEDGE of the Father that was previously UNKNOWN. Revealing the 'truth of the Father' through Word and example. Allowing us a 'glimpse' of that which IS Holy.

I know, just more 'silly words' right? Offered through a PURE lack of understanding for I do NOT 'believe' that Christ IS God Himself. So be it.

But, when one is ABLE to 'shed' themselves of this 'belief in trinity' there is MUCH more to BE revealed. For ONCE one 'buys into trinity' it BLOCKS the ability to gain a DEEPER understanding. For to 'believe in trinity' STOPS one at this point from learning ANYTHING 'other than trinity'. One is denied the understanding of the relationship of Father and Son and the REASON for MANY things that MUST be denied in order to 'believe' that Christ IS God.

So, Christ was MOST CERTAINLY HOLY previous to 'taking on the flesh'. Yet His HOLINESS was PROVEN upon His defeat of death through the denial of temptation.

MEC
 
AVBunyan said:
Just wondering - would you mind giving me a couple here?

Let me FIRST offer this:

Matthew 24:36

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

For one to 'accept trintiy' this passage MUST be IGNORED or 'altered'. For Christ PLAINLY states here that HE IS NOT GOD HIMSELF.

Now, I really find it hard to believe that you would choose to WASTE my time in offering scripture that states that to BE saved one MUST repent of thier sin, accept Christ AS their PERSONAL Savior and follow Him in LOVE.

Now, this MAY not BE what YOU believe, but I WILL offer scripture to PLAINLY show this.

Give me an hour or so and I WILL offer NOT ONLY scriptural PROOF of what one MUST DO in order to BE 'saved', but scripture PLAINLY stating that Christ existed PREVIOUS to the 'flesh' and that it WAS INDEED Christ that 'took on the flesh' and NOT God Himself.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Imagican said:
j,

Now, I ask you POINT BLANK; Are you TRULY willing to place you reputation and your Salvation on the line by STATING that one MUST accept that Jesus Christ IS God in order to 'be saved'? Would you HONESTLY be SO engrossed in a 'concept' that you would 'believe' that it is YOUR belief in a 'doctrine' that is the deciding factor of 'who it' and who is NOT saved'?



MEC

YES!!!!!!I have stated many times before....It is Not necessary to believe Jesus is God in order to be saved, but evidence of ones Salvation is the realization that Jesus is God for the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth about Jesus Christ, who is God......Mec...You have been provided with many proofs and scripture that Jesus is God and yet you do not believe....

I am truly astounded as to how you can be so blind to truth....

Jesus / AKA The Alpha and the Omega tells us He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says......Inspite of how much scripture is shown you, You don't hear.....
 
JG,
It takes the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT in order for anyone to confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD GOD JEHOVAH come in the flesh. Those who cannot confess this truth are not born again, born of God.

MEC will not be able to confess this truth until he is born again, born of God.
 
j,

Do YOU believe in what is offered below, other than that underlined)?

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.

And DO YOU 'believe' that there is ANY MORE that I NEED to KNOW in order to 'accept Christ INTO your heart'?

Now, I have been baptised through water and through the Spirit. And YOU would state that THIS IS NOT TRUE? I do NOT 'believe' that Christ IS God Himself, but THE SON OF GOD. I believe in EVERY WORD that is above. I 'believe in the HOLY Catholic Church, I just DON't 'believe that the CC of today IS the Holy Catholic Church.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
Let me FIRST offer this:

Matthew 24:36

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Easy....While Jesus became flesh he willingly submitted to the will of the father....It is true, that in his humanity he did not know the day or the hour...Now that he is back with the father, you bet he knows...Perhaps this picture will help you see.......


trinitydiagramka3.jpg
 
Imagican said:
j,

Do YOU believe in what is offered below, other than that underlined)?

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.

And DO YOU 'believe' that there is ANY MORE that I NEED to KNOW in order to 'accept Christ INTO your heart'?

Now, I have been baptised through water and through the Spirit. And YOU would state that THIS IS NOT TRUE? I do NOT 'believe' that Christ IS God Himself, but THE SON OF GOD. I believe in EVERY WORD that is above. I 'believe in the HOLY Catholic Church, I just DON't 'believe that the CC of today IS the Holy Catholic Church.

MEC

MEC - what about the Apostles Creed?

And you are correct, the Holy catholic Church is different than the Roman Catholic church.

please note the intentional use/non-use of capitalization.
 
Av,

I was UNABLE to produce what I stated that I would in the time that I 'thought'. Upon attempting to offer what I stated, I ran into SO MUCH that it has taken me longer to compile the information that asked. What I have so far is BUT A BEGINNING. But let us start HERE; The Book of Matthew. What you asked was for scritural reference to what one NEEDS in order to BE SAVED. While MOST would say to simply confess that Christ is their Savior, I BELIEVE that there is MUCH MORE to actually BEING SAVED than a 'simple statement'. That the churches teach this 'watered down' PHILOSOPHICAL approach is of NO CONSQUENCE to 'truth'. And here IS TRUTH as offered BY Our Savior:

Everything offered so far is from the Book of Matthew. I am working on Mark and will proceed through the other Gospels as time allows. And please note, that there are scriptural references to not only the Salvation issue, but the ENTITY of Christ as well.

Matthew 5:1-38

Matthew 6:1-34

Matthew 7:1-29

Matthew 10:32-33

Matthew 12:31-37

Matthew 13:15

Matthew 16:6

Matthew 16:16-17

Matthew 16:24-26

Matthew 18:3

Matthew 18:21-22

Matthew 18:35

Matthew 20:23

Matthew 22:14

Matthew 22:37-40

Matthew 28:18-20

You guys are 'something else'. You should WELL know me by now. I have stated OVER AND OVER that I 'thought' that I was discussing issues with others that HAVE read The Word. Guys, I HAVE read the Word and STILL read it over and over. My understanding goes BEYOND simple concepts to a MUCH deeper level and THIS IS why I am here; to OFFER this to ANY that have ears to HEAR.

Like I said, I am working my way through Mark and then on to the rest of the 'books'.

MEC
 
aLoneVoice said:
MEC - what about the Apostles Creed?

And you are correct, the Holy catholic Church is different than the Roman Catholic church.

please note the intentional use/non-use of capitalization.

Do you have any evidence to prove that statement?

Seems to me and my historical readings, there wasn't another "Holy catholic Church" around when the Apostle's Creed was written...

Regards
 
aLoneVoice said:
MEC - what about the Apostles Creed?

And you are correct, the Holy catholic Church is different than the Roman Catholic church.

please note the intentional use/non-use of capitalization.

My question was; DO YOU 'believe' what is offered IN the Apostle's Creed? Is this what one should confess upon their Baptism? And IF SO, where is this; Jesus IS God understanding. WHY, if it MUST be 'accepted' is there NO indication or instruction of this 'trinity doctrine'?

Solo insists that IF one IS 'born again' that their UNDERSTANDING will be 'transformed' into this 'Jesus IS God' understanding. IF this IS 'true', WHY did NONE of the apostles OFFER this? Why is there NO instruction based on this 'trnity doctrine'?

I am NOT asking HOW one justifies 'trinity' in their OWN heart, what I AM asking is WHERE IS THE INSTRUCTION concerning this 'belief'? Why is there NO direct offering of 'trinity' IN THE WORD if it is SO crucial to one's understanding of the relationship of God and His Son?

MEC
 
Fran what I was point out is that the Holy catholic Church - refers to the the global Christian Church with Jesus at it's head, who is the bride.

The holy Roman Catholic church - refers to a denomination that has the Pope at it's head.

My reference to the Apostles' Creed was to ask MEC's thoughts on it - since he has only referenced the Nicene Creed.
 
francisdesales said:
Do you have any evidence to prove that statement?

Seems to me and my historical readings, there wasn't another "Holy catholic Church" around when the Apostle's Creed was written...

Regards

I will NOT speak for another but WILL offer my understanding in regards to your question.

Fran, I BELIVE that the CC as we know it today has veered 'away' from that which existed 'in the beginning'. The CC that we know of today has 'gone it's OWN way' instead of simply adhering to that which was offered by God, His Son and the apostles.

While the Apostle's Creed MOST likely DID come from the 'beginning of the CC' it by NO means offers adherance TO that which the CC follows today or even soon after it's inception.

But Fran, I see NO "TRINITY" in the Apostle's Creed. Your 'belief' is that it was 'gradually inerpreted'. MY belief is that what was offered by Christ and His Apostles was COMPLETE. Anything ELSE that was NEEDED would be offered THROUGH The Spirit as 'deeper' understanding. That 'your' deeper understanding led to a 'belief' that Jesus Christ IS God is a 'belief' offered through 'other men' rather than THE Spirit. For EVERYTHING offered by God, Christ AND the apostles stated PLAINLY that Christ IS the Son of God. And that God IS The Father of Christ. NOT God 'the Son', but CHRIST the Son of God.

So, the Apostle's Creed MUST have been compiled BEFORE this 'trinity' was allowed to INVADE Christianity THROUGH the CC. Otherwise, there would have been SOME mention of IT in the Creed.

I have exhibited the PROOF of what I offer here on NUMEROUS occasions. things like warnings that there would COME a time that the 'truth' would be altered into 'something different'. And the CC purely shows that THEY were at least a PART of what was warned against. Forbidding to wed. Calling a priest Father. Changing the 'simplicity that IS Christ Jesus into 'something else'. The list goes on and on.

I would go through the 'effort' to offer it AGAIN, but you would simply deny the 'truth' of it in defense of your 'religion'.

MEC
 
jgredline said:
Easy....While Jesus became flesh he willingly submitted to the will of the father....It is true, that in his humanity he did not know the day or the hour...Now that he is back with the father, you bet he knows...Perhaps this picture will help you see.......


trinitydiagramka3.jpg

And in what 'part' of the Holy Bible did you find this 'chart'? Looks like some sort of 'symbolism' to me that is NOT contained ANYWHERE but in the imaginations of man.

MEC
 

Donations

Total amount
$1,592.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Back
Top