Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
M
Mitspa
Guest
I would ask you Digger what does the scripture say overcomes sin? Grace! What does the scriptures say produces sinful desires and is the strength of sin? The Law!
The law has no power to overcome sin but only has power to condemn and make guilty. Now grace is the only biblical answer for sin that dwells in the flesh of all men. Paul when he confronts those who in in the lust of the flesh, he NEVER points them to the law, but ALWAYS to the spirit!
Now some claim they control their lust by looking to the law? that is a biblical lie!
The commandments will produce a desire to sin!
THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW!
the reason those who are under law, think about sin so much is because the law is causing sinful desires from their flesh.
No! one must die to the law. And come alive to Christ alone.
Will a man who has absolute confidence in Christ and His Grace be held in bondage to sin? No way!
A man who is condemned and guilty and feels seperated from God by his sin, will be held in bondage to his sin.
FOR SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE!
if Agape "love" is the answer to all sin issues? and it is! Then who has more access to the agape of God, by which we love?
A justified man is confident in Gods Love and loves others as God loves him. A condemned man has no confidence in Gods love for him and cannot love others as he should.
precepts
Member
Mitspa 12:23 Yes he fulfilled every jot and tittle! That's not what the scripture says!!
Including the sacrificial and judicial shedding of blood!
Sounds more like pessimism! That's were grace abounds. This is a nation under occupation. It would be impossible to keep every law of Moses in these times, but the law still stands as the definition of sin but grace abounds.
For example the making of any likeness of anything in heaven above to bow down to?
Mitspa 12:34. How do you interpret Mat 5:17-19 and Luke 16:15-18 or do you just ignore them and keep chanting no man is justified by the law?
You're doing what you're accusing others of doing, accepting what you want to accept and totally ignoring what Christ said about the law!
The least teach to break the least of the laws of Moses, that's what Christ said. Paul is referring to the whole law. You're the one omitting and accepting what you want to accept. I accept all, the law, grace, and the tittle.
Regardless of what Christ said?!
It's not everything said to be written by Paul is really Paul. So called teachings of Paul contradict Revelation's doctrine of Balaam, aka the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, that teach to commit fornication by eating foods sacrificed to idols. This is a fact!
So you're saying if there was no law there would be no sin? Sin in man is caused by the law and not by man's fall from Eden?!
He has to die to the whole law, not the law. You're contradicting Christ's word, not one tittle. You're one of the least by definition.
That's the point you're missing. We are not under the whole law but under grace, but the laws that aren't fulfilled will never pass away!
And it's quite simple, he will be called the least in the kingdom, if he makes it there. It's not all who cry Lord, Lord, will make it.
M
Mitspa
Guest
I have taken the time to place the word "believer" when I speak of those who are set free from the law of moses!
Now if i have failed to make that point clear? Then I make it clear now!
IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST HE IS A NEW CREATION, THE OLD THINGS HAVE PAST AWAY, BEHOLD ALL THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW!
a new heaven and a new earth! This is for the beliver in Christ!
Now again Paul epistles and Words of the Lord are not at all in conflict! The conflict is in the natural mind of man trying to understand spiritual truths! As long as one looks to the law they will be carnal in their thoughts and mind. But when one turns to Christ the veil of the flesh is removed.
All men will indeed be judged by Pauls gospel, if any preach another gospel, EVEN AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN, they are cursed! As one looks to Christ alone through the gospel and the ministry of righteousness by the Spirit, they will be able to understand ALL SCRIPTURE and its true purpose!
I reject all doctrine that is contrary to Pauls epistles as false doctrine!
M
Mitspa
Guest
Hi digging,
I think I like digger better.
Nothing meant, Mitspa. It just caught me funny.
- Davies
I did not see my error! sorry Digging it was not on purpose!
We see this very much alike precepts. If I may add to what you have said here, to be under the law means that one is subject to, or under the penalty of the law for breaking it. I am not sure why some seem to think that Paul's teachings contradict Christ and supercede Christ. Paul never thought this or taught this. We are all guilty of sin (tthe transgression of the law) whether we want to acknowlege it or not....
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
That puts us all under the law. Christ's sacrifice pays the price for sin and justifies us...
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Now if that sacrificial law is done away, what does one do with this scripture? If the law that Paul plainly says is still in force...
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
if this law were done away, there is no remission.
precepts
Member
I notice Mitspa ignored my responses. I wonder why?
John 8:32's quote:
John 8:32's quote:
One cannot be penalize for breaking the laws if one is not conscious of the laws, thus covered by grace. Even if he is unable to keep certain laws, he is still covered by grace. The unknowing Christ-tian will not be penalized, that's the point. My point is having confidence at Christ's return by being blameless. How can you be confident if unconscious of what sin is? That's the point. You will feel fear at Christ's return!
M
Mitspa
Guest
Paul said all men will be judged by his gospel! that any that preach another gospel is cursed!
So his writtings do establish all truth of scripture!
Hear pauls report and then you will be able to understand purpose of the law!
As for now it seems to be very far from some of you.
Christ went about preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the Gospel of Paul...
Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Wonder where that leaves Him? And Peter is done for...
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
In the GWTJ, billions will be judged from the words of the Bible...
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
All 66 books.
Perhaps you should not be so hasty to post until you have thoroughly considered what you are saying.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Gal 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
I find it really hard to understand how satan has so blinded much of the "church" It seems so few understand what is so clear?
Over and over and in every epistle written by the Apostles of the Lord, we are warned against those who would attempt to bring the church back under bondage to the law. Why is it that satan is so determined to put believers under bondage to the law? Be he is the ACCUSER! satan uses the law to keep belivers in bondage to their flesh.
Why in all this false teaching of the law are there so many different doctrines? Because no one in light of the NEW TESTAMENT can affirm any part of the law be laid upon the righteous in faith! Thus we have group with this part of the law and another group with that part!
So all satan needs is for a "believer" to feel that grace is not enough to justify them. If he can get a believer to justify themselves any any way, he (satan) has defeated the grace of God in that believers life!
God is not confused as some are! grace is grace! Its all by grace or its all by works of law! This other stuff is just double minded and religious nonsense!
I find that a very interesting concept. Interesting in the fact that Satan was the first lawless being...
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
He deceived our parents with the notion that they really didn't have to obey God...
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
No, just because God said don't do this or you will die, He really doesn't mean that. You can be a law unto yourselves, you will know good from evil without all of God's restrictive laws and rules.
He deceived our first parents and has deceived the whole world ever since with his lawlessness...
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
M
Mitspa
Guest
What is it in the heart of a man that would make him reject the free gift of salvation and turn to the law and self-justification?
These are as the pharisees, who think themselves better than others and that of themselves they are something. They think in their heart that they have a righteousness that the scriptures declare they do not have. Look at the term "moral law" that many of them use to replace the law of moses. They think themselves "moral" and able to do moral things! Now this is the deception of the flesh! There is NONE GOOD, NO NOT ONE! none are "moral" All must come and be saved by Christ and faith in His Moral strength. He is salvation! Salvation is the Person of Christ! We must die with Him and see His death as our own. Paul said through the law i died to the law? This means that when one understands the law and its pupose they will go the the Cross Of Christ and die to all self-ability, self-righteousness and self morality!
So then those who are still seeking to keep any part of the law are really just looking for a way to justify there own flesh, because they have not learned to submit to the scriptures? I KNOW NOTHING GOOD LIVES IN MY FLESH! they think they have some moral nature of themselves!
add in the fact that satan has deceived and continues to deceive those who are self-righteous, and then one can understand why the church is as it is.
M
Mitspa
Guest
THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL?
I have had some discussions about looking to the law and its place in a justified believers life? Now I think I should explain How I look at the law? Now I know that what the law is to natural man by the letter is not what it is in Spirit?
As I grew in the righteousness of faith I was able to see what the law repesented in spirit! First I say that The Spirit was long before the law was given. The Lord new long before he gave the law through moses, that He would redeem man by the Blood of His Son and the giving of the Holy Spirit. So the law was a shadow of that which was to come! The Spirit was the goal, tha law was the tutor as Paul called it, to bring us to the promise. So now that we have the substance we do not walk in the shadow but we walk in the Light.
Why would we look to the letter when we have the Spirit?
Example; The law commanded that the sabbath and the rest of that day was an Holy Thing unto God. Now everybody with a brain, knows that the true sabbath day is not Sun. but Sat.
According to the letter! Now the church from the beginning knew they where set free from all the law! They would always worship on the first day of the week. This is repeated over and over in the scriptures. They held this day as the true sabbath because the Lord was raised from the dead on the first day of the week. Now Heb 4 tells us that the eternal rest of God, that was before the foundations of the world, is the sabbath.
To enter into the eternal rest of Christ is to cease from ones own works! All by faith!
so we see that by the letter and mans understanding that the commandment looked like one thing, when it was really a great "spiritual" truth, that was only fulfilled as we rest in Christ!
All the commandments are like this! The natural mind my think it is keeping the commandment, but it cannot apart from being in Christ and being in the Spirit.
Consider circumcision? by the letter it is a physical act performed by natural man. But the letter was really a shadow of a great "spiritual" truth!
The scriptures do not say in vain "become as a fool and God will make you wise" Become weak and God will make you strong! Not by power nor by might but by My Spirit saith the Lord.
Now I can look at the law, but I know its purpose and I know who I am in Christ. I have no confidence in my flesh and I know the law was but a shadow of the Holy Spirit within me!
Blessings and grace upon all who Look to Christ!
I have had some discussions about looking to the law and its place in a justified believers life? Now I think I should explain How I look at the law? Now I know that what the law is to natural man by the letter is not what it is in Spirit?
As I grew in the righteousness of faith I was able to see what the law repesented in spirit! First I say that The Spirit was long before the law was given. The Lord new long before he gave the law through moses, that He would redeem man by the Blood of His Son and the giving of the Holy Spirit. So the law was a shadow of that which was to come! The Spirit was the goal, tha law was the tutor as Paul called it, to bring us to the promise. So now that we have the substance we do not walk in the shadow but we walk in the Light.
Why would we look to the letter when we have the Spirit?
Example; The law commanded that the sabbath and the rest of that day was an Holy Thing unto God. Now everybody with a brain, knows that the true sabbath day is not Sun. but Sat.
According to the letter! Now the church from the beginning knew they where set free from all the law! They would always worship on the first day of the week. This is repeated over and over in the scriptures. They held this day as the true sabbath because the Lord was raised from the dead on the first day of the week. Now Heb 4 tells us that the eternal rest of God, that was before the foundations of the world, is the sabbath.
To enter into the eternal rest of Christ is to cease from ones own works! All by faith!
so we see that by the letter and mans understanding that the commandment looked like one thing, when it was really a great "spiritual" truth, that was only fulfilled as we rest in Christ!
All the commandments are like this! The natural mind my think it is keeping the commandment, but it cannot apart from being in Christ and being in the Spirit.
Consider circumcision? by the letter it is a physical act performed by natural man. But the letter was really a shadow of a great "spiritual" truth!
The scriptures do not say in vain "become as a fool and God will make you wise" Become weak and God will make you strong! Not by power nor by might but by My Spirit saith the Lord.
Now I can look at the law, but I know its purpose and I know who I am in Christ. I have no confidence in my flesh and I know the law was but a shadow of the Holy Spirit within me!
Blessings and grace upon all who Look to Christ!
Davies
Member
M
Mitspa
Guest
Well? Does a justfied man need to be condemned as a sinner by the letter?
Or does he need to be taught true righteousness by the Spirit?
TO HIM WHO HAS MORE WILL BE GIVEN?
when one understands that the law of God in already a living truth within them? They will be set free from sins power!
The flesh is nothing! But the law will always point out and give strength to the sinful desires of the flesh.
The law is not of faith for this reason! because it puts the burden of righteousness upon the flesh, which it can never fulfill!
Now if some think that they can keep the letter? they are deceived just as the hypocrites and parisees! They are far from God!
I say that all who look to any part of the written code, and attempt to judge themselves or justify themselves in any way? Has not heard the true gospel! No! justified freely by His Grace, means exactlly what it says.
Davies
Member
Good morning,
Not only is the Law good, but it is just. Not only is the Law just, it is holy. How is this conclusion made?
Romans 7:11-12
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
This is a repeat, but it's a good reminder.
- Davies
Not only is the Law good, but it is just. Not only is the Law just, it is holy. How is this conclusion made?
Romans 7:11-12
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
This is a repeat, but it's a good reminder.
- Davies
digging
Member
I agree with this statement you made Mitspa
"All the commandments are like this! The natural mind may think it is keeping the commandment, but it cannot apart from being in Christ and being in the Spirit.,"
I believe the fulfillment of the law within the heart of each believer can only occur through faith in Christ and with the power of the spirit. However we are really still WAITING for this to happen, we are looking toward the restoration of all things to come in God's Kingdom at Christ's return. We have this hope, and thus we do still have a High Priest to mediate for us and offer to cover us with his sacrifice.
IF Jesus is our High Priest then there is still sin and sin is shown through the law, righteousness is not achieved by the law but is a result of faith. When we are truly restored one of the fruitage of this righteousness will be the whole law being honored as a result of faith in Christ.
We can't put the cart in front of the horse, Jesus is the horse the cart is the law.The two do however still go together the challenge for us today as Christians is understanding this order and why.
It's like we are standing in between two worlds,
half way out of the old (law), and half way into the new (spirit).
Digging
"All the commandments are like this! The natural mind may think it is keeping the commandment, but it cannot apart from being in Christ and being in the Spirit.,"
I believe the fulfillment of the law within the heart of each believer can only occur through faith in Christ and with the power of the spirit. However we are really still WAITING for this to happen, we are looking toward the restoration of all things to come in God's Kingdom at Christ's return. We have this hope, and thus we do still have a High Priest to mediate for us and offer to cover us with his sacrifice.
IF Jesus is our High Priest then there is still sin and sin is shown through the law, righteousness is not achieved by the law but is a result of faith. When we are truly restored one of the fruitage of this righteousness will be the whole law being honored as a result of faith in Christ.
We can't put the cart in front of the horse, Jesus is the horse the cart is the law.The two do however still go together the challenge for us today as Christians is understanding this order and why.
It's like we are standing in between two worlds,
half way out of the old (law), and half way into the new (spirit).
Digging