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Hi Mungo
In post #11 I asked for evidence for your claim in post #10
You have given none.
Evidence? You mean is there a sentence in the Scriptures where we are told that Jesus' words as he died upon the cross as to 'something' being 'finished' was saying that God's great plan of salvation was finished? No, but then there are very, very few places in the Scriptures where God gives some secondary explanation for something found written in the Scriptures. I know that Jesus did, on one or two occasions, sit down with his disciples and explain something that he had previously said, but that's really about it.

If you've been reading my follow up posts you will see that I have explained my position, however. But for your pleasure, I will do so again and with a bit more depth. Here goes:

There was a day in which God called a man by the name of Abram of Ur and made a number of commitments to him, for Abram's faithfulness. He told Abram, and I'll go now with Abraham, that He, God, would make his descendants into a great nation. A people that would eventually be innumerable. So, for the next thousand years or so, God worked through the future descendants of Abraham and raised them up to be just such a nation. But there was a purpose for God having stopped to call Abraham in the first place. God had a plan and purpose for working through Abraham and his descendants that would culminate in what God had promised to Adam and Eve. That one would come who would crush the head of the Serpent.

Throughout those thousand or so years, God also sprinkled liberally throughout His Scriptures, His revelation of Himself to us, His created, prophecies concerning this coming Messiah, Anointed One. God honored Daniel with a particularly spectacular prophecy that told us the exact time that the Anointed One would be with us. God's word tells us that this Anointed One would be born of a virgin and that his birth would be Bethlehem. That he would be God's servant and not a smoldering wick or a swaying reed would he harm. Jesus even read to the people gathered in the synagogue on one particular day the prophecy of Isaiah's writing that spoke of him and declared before all of them that they were witnessing the fulfillment of that prophecy before their very eyes.

All of this came to pass because one day God called a man by the name of Abram of Ur, and made a number of promises to him as to his future descendants and their responsibility in doing God's bidding upon the earth. Finally, after the Scriptures were written that foretold of how we would know God's Anointed One...Jesus came to us. He was born in Bethlehem of a virgin woman. He did go down into Egypt where God then called him to return to His people. He did preach the righteousness of God and healed the lame and the blind and deaf. He did arrive in Jerusalem at exactly the time that Daniel's writings foretold that he would. He was hung on a cross with the dogs baying at his heels. He did give his life as the blood sacrifice required for our sin.

All of that was laid out throughout the old covenant Scriptures as God's 'plan' of salvation that He had been telling us about since the days of Adam's sin in the garden. It was a perfect plan that only God could accomplish because only God could raise up a servant who would be that sinless sacrifice. On the day that Jesus gave up his last breath on this earth, he looked up to his Father and proclaimed to Him, "It is finished!" When Jesus died on that cross that day on a hillside called Golgotha, he completed the plan of salvation that God had begun on the day that He called Abram of Ur. He even used His own people, although they were clueless that they were being used in the hands of a mighty God, to accomplish the task, just as Daniel had also told us would be the case.

That is what was finished. God's great plan of salvation. Today we live in the days of God's mercy and grace, as the new covenant writings tell us. Where the servant's sacrifice, that was too great to only be of value to the Jew, was laid out before the whole world as their only way of salvation. God then used the disciples of His Son to continue to carry on that message and to work in building, with Jesus and the Spirit, the church, the gathering of those called out by the gospel. The body of those who would believe God's great message. Today, as Peter writes to us, God is sitting back being patient with us and allowing all who will to come to the knowledge of God's salvation. But the plan of God's 'way' of salvation was 'finished' on that hillside in Jerusalem called Golgotha.

Hopefully that answers any questions that you might have. Now, I'm fully able to accept that some might not agree with my understanding, but then the question must be asked, "What did Jesus mean when he looked up to his Father and said, 'It is finished!'" What is your explanation for those words that Jesus spoke? I'm perfectly happy and willing to read, and prayerfully study, your position on the matter.

God bless,
Ted
 
That's just speculation. And it ignores the point that Jesus had to present his offering to the Father in heaven.




Or perhaps it's all the work of the one Godhead.


And Pilate did his work as part of the plan?

You are just speculating on no firm basis.
All you have to do IMHO
Is present your information with proofs and hopefully it will be accepted. Perhaps it is your place to take care of the presentation.

The priest examined the lamb presented for sacrifice. If the lamb was blemish free it was accepted.

Jesus was the spiritual sacrifice. The Jews found him blemished, but Rome declared him innocent of guilt.
You are welcome to present all scriptures that support the proof.

eddif
 
Hi Mungo

Evidence? You mean is there a sentence in the Scriptures where we are told that Jesus' words as he died upon the cross as to 'something' being 'finished' was saying that God's great plan of salvation was finished? No, but then there are very, very few places in the Scriptures where God gives some secondary explanation for something found written in the Scriptures. I know that Jesus did, on one or two occasions, sit down with his disciples and explain something that he had previously said, but that's really about it.

If you've been reading my follow up posts you will see that I have explained my position, however. But for your pleasure, I will do so again and with a bit more depth. Here goes:

There was a day in which God called a man by the name of Abram of Ur and made a number of commitments to him, for Abram's faithfulness. He told Abram, and I'll go now with Abraham, that He, God, would make his descendants into a great nation. A people that would eventually be innumerable. So, for the next thousand years or so, God worked through the future descendants of Abraham and raised them up to be just such a nation. But there was a purpose for God having stopped to call Abraham in the first place. God had a plan and purpose for working through Abraham and his descendants that would culminate in what God had promised to Adam and Eve. That one would come who would crush the head of the Serpent.

Throughout those thousand or so years, God also sprinkled liberally throughout His Scriptures, His revelation of Himself to us, His created, prophecies concerning this coming Messiah, Anointed One. God honored Daniel with a particularly spectacular prophecy that told us the exact time that the Anointed One would be with us. God's word tells us that this Anointed One would be born of a virgin and that his birth would be Bethlehem. That he would be God's servant and not a smoldering wick or a swaying reed would he harm. Jesus even read to the people gathered in the synagogue on one particular day the prophecy of Isaiah's writing that spoke of him and declared before all of them that they were witnessing the fulfillment of that prophecy before their very eyes.

All of this came to pass because one day God called a man by the name of Abram of Ur, and made a number of promises to him as to his future descendants and their responsibility in doing God's bidding upon the earth. Finally, after the Scriptures were written that foretold of how we would know God's Anointed One...Jesus came to us. He was born in Bethlehem of a virgin woman. He did go down into Egypt where God then called him to return to His people. He did preach the righteousness of God and healed the lame and the blind and deaf. He did arrive in Jerusalem at exactly the time that Daniel's writings foretold that he would. He was hung on a cross with the dogs baying at his heels. He did give his life as the blood sacrifice required for our sin.

All of that was laid out throughout the old covenant Scriptures as God's 'plan' of salvation that He had been telling us about since the days of Adam's sin in the garden. It was a perfect plan that only God could accomplish because only God could raise up a servant who would be that sinless sacrifice. On the day that Jesus gave up his last breath on this earth, he looked up to his Father and proclaimed to Him, "It is finished!" When Jesus died on that cross that day on a hillside called Golgotha, he completed the plan of salvation that God had begun on the day that He called Abram of Ur. He even used His own people, although they were clueless that they were being used in the hands of a mighty God, to accomplish the task, just as Daniel had also told us would be the case.

That is what was finished. God's great plan of salvation. Today we live in the days of God's mercy and grace, as the new covenant writings tell us. Where the servant's sacrifice, that was too great to only be of value to the Jew, was laid out before the whole world as their only way of salvation. God then used the disciples of His Son to continue to carry on that message and to work in building, with Jesus and the Spirit, the church, the gathering of those called out by the gospel. The body of those who would believe God's great message. Today, as Peter writes to us, God is sitting back being patient with us and allowing all who will to come to the knowledge of God's salvation. But the plan of God's 'way' of salvation was 'finished' on that hillside in Jerusalem called Golgotha.

Hopefully that answers any questions that you might have. Now, I'm fully able to accept that some might not agree with my understanding, but then the question must be asked, "What did Jesus mean when he looked up to his Father and said, 'It is finished!'" What is your explanation for those words that Jesus spoke? I'm perfectly happy and willing to read, and prayerfully study, your position on the matter.

God bless,
Ted
Your long history through the OT is not the issue. It's just padding.
The issue is your claim:
On the day that Jesus gave up his last breath on this earth, he looked up to his Father and proclaimed to Him, "It is finished!" When Jesus died on that cross that day on a hillside called Golgotha, he completed the plan of salvation that God had begun on the day that He called Abram of Ur.
That is your speculation.
But the plan was not finished.
Jesus had to rise again, ascend to heaven and present his sacrifice to the Father.
Then it was finished and Jesus could sit down on God's right hand - Job done!
 
All you have to do IMHO
Is present your information with proofs and hopefully it will be accepted. Perhaps it is your place to take care of the presentation.

The priest examined the lamb presented for sacrifice. If the lamb was blemish free it was accepted.

Jesus was the spiritual sacrifice. The Jews found him blemished, but Rome declared him innocent of guilt.
You are welcome to present all scriptures that support the proof.

eddif
I gave you one theory in post #7. What is your response to that?

Walpole gave you another one in post #12. No rebuttal has been given to that either.

You and miamited just keep repeating your assertions.
 
All you have to do IMHO
Is present your information with proofs and hopefully it will be accepted. Perhaps it is your place to take care of the presentation.

The priest examined the lamb presented for sacrifice. If the lamb was blemish free it was accepted.

Jesus was the spiritual sacrifice. The Jews found him blemished, but Rome declared him innocent of guilt.
You are welcome to present all scriptures that support the proof.

eddif
Another point.
Jesus was not a spiritual sacrifice.

The lambs that were presented were actually killed
Jesus actually died on the cross.
 
Your long history through the OT is not the issue. It's just padding.
The issue is your claim:
On the day that Jesus gave up his last breath on this earth, he looked up to his Father and proclaimed to Him, "It is finished!" When Jesus died on that cross that day on a hillside called Golgotha, he completed the plan of salvation that God had begun on the day that He called Abram of Ur.
That is your speculation.
But the plan was not finished.
Jesus had to rise again, ascend to heaven and present his sacrifice to the Father.
Then it was finished and Jesus could sit down on God's right hand - Job done!
HI Mungo

Well, as I also said, you're welcome to propose your own understanding of 'what' exactly Jesus was referring to as being finished when he made that statement. I'm all ears.

For the record, I disagree that any of your long list of things that Jesus had to do to finish the placement of God's plan of salvation, was necessary to that plan. The resurrection and presenting of himself to the Father are all consequences of the plan having been put in place, but not anything to do with 'what' had to be done that man might have God's salvation available to them.

But, I'm all ears as to what you believe Jesus was referring to when he said 'it' is finished. What was 'it' that was finished?

God bless,
Ted
 
And why did he drink the sour wine vinegar before his death on the cross? This part of the gospels has been confusing me lately and I have been struggling to understand what he meant


Matthew 26:29- 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.


Mark 14:25- 25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.


Luke 22:18- 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
This means Jesus will drink with them anew when they meet again in heaven.
That is a beautiful promise and something to look forward to.
.
 
HI Mungo

Well, as I also said, you're welcome to propose your own understanding of 'what' exactly Jesus was referring to as being finished when he made that statement. I'm all ears.

For the record, I disagree that any of your long list of things that Jesus had to do to finish the placement of God's plan of salvation, was necessary to that plan. The resurrection and presenting of himself to the Father are all consequences of the plan having been put in place, but not anything to do with 'what' had to be done that man might have God's salvation available to them.

But, I'm all ears as to what you believe Jesus was referring to when he said 'it' is finished. What was 'it' that was finished?

God bless,
Ted
John 19:30 “It is finished!” The work he had come to do was finished. He had poured out of His soul as an offering for sin which was the work of redemption and of atonement he had come to do.

It is true that He had not yet died, but His death, burial, and ascension were as certain as if already accomplished. So the Lord Jesus could announce that the way had been provided whereby sinners could be saved. We need to thank Jesus today and every day for the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary!
.
 
HI Mungo

Well, as I also said, you're welcome to propose your own understanding of 'what' exactly Jesus was referring to as being finished when he made that statement. I'm all ears.

For the record, I disagree that any of your long list of things that Jesus had to do to finish the placement of God's plan of salvation, was necessary to that plan. The resurrection and presenting of himself to the Father are all consequences of the plan having been put in place, but not anything to do with 'what' had to be done that man might have God's salvation available to them.

Really? You think that if Jesus was not resurrected and didn't present his offering of blood to the Father in heaven then we would still have been saved?
They are not consequeces, They are essential.
Read Levitcus about atonement - especially Lev 16 about the Day of Atonement.


But, I'm all ears as to what you believe Jesus was referring to when he said 'it' is finished. What was 'it' that was finished?

God bless,
Ted

See post #7 for the short version.
And for the long version from the4thcup
So this Passover meal, the Feast of the Passover, is instituted and practiced annually on the 14th
day of Nissan for nearly 1300 years. During the Jewish Passover meal (also called the Seder Meal) there is an obligation. I repeat: An obligation, to drink four cups of wine. Now this meal can be broken down into four basic parts.

1st Cup - The first part of this Passover meal is the festival blessing and in that festival blessing the presiding priest says, "Let the festival begin." They say a few prayers and they drink from the first cup of wine.

2nd Cup - Then they go on to the second part of the meal. At this point the youngest person in the room would ask the presiding priest, "Father, why is tonight different from all other nights? " And the person administering the meal or priest would read from Exodus in the Torah. This was a very special way to remember the exodus so that future generations would never forget how Yahweh saved the Israelites from the bondage of slavery. After they read from Exodus, they would sing the Little Hallel. Hallel means “praise.” It’s a praise song, ”Halleluiah.” It’s Psalm 113. Then after they would sing the Little Hallel, they would drink from the second cup of wine, and this would finish the second part of the meal.

3rd Cup - The third part of the meal would begin as they ate the main course. They would eat different foods, each with a symbolic meaning. They ate the roasted lamb. It represented the Pascal lamb that was sacrificed in Egypt. They also ate bitter herbs and spices. These bitter herbs would remind them of the bitterness of bondage, and how bitter it was to be enslaved for so many years. They also ate green herbs dipped in salt water. It tasted bad, but the salt reminded them of the tears that the Israelites shed in the 400 years of slavery. They would also eat something called haroseth, which was apple that was mashed up and cooked with wine and a little bit of cinnamon and nutmeg. It represented the mortar used in the bricks to build Egypt. They also ate unleavened bread called matzah, just as they ate on that first night in Egypt. They ate many symbolic foods and when the meal was done, they would drink from the third cup of wine. By the way, the
third cup of wine is referred to as the “Cup of Blessing.” This is the cup that Jesus changes later on, and if you recall sometimes in Mass, you may sing, “The Cup of Blessing Which We Bless.” This is the origin of the phrase. Drinking the cup would close the third part of the meal. Then they would go on to the fourth part. 4th Cup - The fourth part is the climax of the meal where they would conclude with several more prayers, and then they would sing the “Great Hallel”, which was Psalms 114-118. Then they would drink the fourth cup of wine and the presiding priest would say the words, “TEL TELESTI” which means “IT IS FINISHED” or “IT IS CONSUMATED”. The meal is completed. Jews still practice this Passover meal today much like they did nearly
3300 years ago
 
John 19:30 “It is finished!” The work he had come to do was finished. He had poured out of His soul as an offering for sin which was the work of redemption and of atonement he had come to do.

It is true that He had not yet died, but His death, burial, and ascension were as certain as if already accomplished. So the Lord Jesus could announce that the way had been provided whereby sinners could be saved. We need to thank Jesus today and every day for the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary!
.
Hi Cooper,

That's my position also, but I do believe that his reference is to a plan that extends beyond his life and work upon the earth. I believe what was finished, as I'm sure you've gathered from my previous postings, was the work of the entire plan of God's salvation. Beginning with His call to Abram to begin the entire process of having all the prophecies of Jesus' coming and the work that he would be doing, written down for all and future generations.

God bless,
Ted
 
Hi Mungo
Really? You think that if Jesus was not resurrected and didn't present his offering of blood to the Father in heaven then we would still have been saved?
Absolutely!! The Scriptures declare that it is the shed blood of Christ that provides for us our salvation. There's no requirement that I can find that there had to be some ceremony of performance 'required' that the shed blood of Christ could fulfill its work.

Read Levitcus about atonement - especially Lev 16 about the Day of Atonement.
Yes, I've read all about the Levitical process of atonement.

Look, I've offered now twice that you're free to not accept my explanation. Now, have you wasted enough of our time that you feel worthy to give us your answer to the question? I'm fine with the fact that you don't agree with my explanation, brother, I've been in disagreement with a lot of folks about theological understandings. So, let's just go with you don't accept my answer and let's see yours. OK?

Maybe once I read yours, I'll reconsider and declare, "gosh! I've been wrong all this time."

God bless,
Ted
 
Hi Cooper,

That's my position also, but I do believe that his reference is to a plan that extends beyond his life and work upon the earth. I believe what was finished, as I'm sure you've gathered from my previous postings, was the work of the entire plan of God's salvation. Beginning with His call to Abram to begin the entire process of having all the prophecies of Jesus' coming and the work that he would be doing, written down for all and future generations.

God bless,
Ted
Yes, I totally agree. I think this was the culmination of God's plan of salvation from the foundation of the earth and now it was finished. All those who in faith believe, like Moses, Abraham, and millions more down the ages, will/shall be saved. In my view this is what is meant by predestination. What do you think?
.
 
Hi Mungo

Absolutely!! The Scriptures declare that it is the shed blood of Christ that provides for us our salvation. There's no requirement that I can find that there had to be some ceremony of performance 'required' that the shed blood of Christ could fulfill its work.

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Heb 9:11-12

But you believe what you want.
 
Romans 8:29 kjv
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I wish I could open this up more.


The things of the law of Moses are about things crafted by mens hands. These physical things are seen as shadows of things to come. The sacrifice of an animal is not the ultimate reality.

Our human body was not crafted by man, but They / ( the Us of creation) made man in the image of God. The tabernacle we are is to manifest the things of God. A living soul is not a born again spiritual person.

Jesus the High Priest of the temple we are, needs the quickening spirit Jesus allowed inside us.
Revelation 3:20 is the moving of what Jesus, the second Adam, became into our being. Not external items of Moses, but love, joy, peace patience, long suffering, compassion, etc.

Not the redneck coveralls replaced by a three piece suit, but a change of inner heart and mind. My flesh is not just spiffed up but a new creation inside. At the last trump the change will be completed. Then the wedding ceremony with total transformation can can be celebrated with new wine. Not with sour wine (vinegar), but new wine.

We see some of the transformation at Pentecost, but the fullness is yet to come.

eddif
 
But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Heb 9:11-12

But you believe what you want.
Hi Mungo

Don't mean to belabor the point and I've considered your arguments against my understanding of what Jesus was referring to when he uttered the words, "it is finished". However, should I expect an answer to any of my questions to you or should we rather move on with only your disagreement that I'm correct?

BTW it is worth considering some English sentence structure here. 'What', in the quoted passage secured the eternal redemption? Was it Jesus entering the Holy Place? Or was it the blood through which he was able to enter the Holy Place. I contend that if it is the blood, then it was when Jesus poured out his blood for us that we became able to attain God's salvation. That would have been when he was on that cross proclaiming that 'it' was finished.

God bless,
Ted
 
Last edited:
Hi Cooper
In my view this is what is meant by predestination. What do you think?
For me, the issue of predestination is not that God, before this realm of His creating came to exist, chose individuals by name to be saved. I don't see it as, "Well, I'm going to save Mary Smith over there and Billy Thomas." I see it as His effort to save an entire group of people for which He established His word and the sacrifice of His servant, to save. As Jesus said, and I paraphrase here to show my meaning, "my Father has predestined that all those who will believe and be baptized will be saved." The group of people who would, as they live their lives upon the earth, hear the gospel and believe it; trust the truth of the gospel and the one to whom it points, are predestined, since the foundations of the world were established, to be saved on the day of God's judgment upon all of mankind that would come to exist as time marches on. From the days of Adam, to the days of the last man standing when the earth is destroyed by fire and the heavens be rolled up like a scroll.

I also have an understanding that those who are predestined are not necessarily the same as those who are the 'elect'. The elected, for me, refers to specific and individual people that God has elected to use to further His purposes upon the earth. Enoch was elected. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were elected. Moses was elected and the prophets of the old covenant were elected. John the baptist was elected. Paul and the 12 disciples were elected. Although I believe that Judas forfeited his elected place.

God bless,
Ted
 
Hi Cooper

For me, the issue of predestination is not that God, before this realm of His creating came to exist, chose individuals by name to be saved. I don't see it as, "Well, I'm going to save Mary Smith over there and Billy Thomas." I see it as His effort to save an entire group of people for which He established His word and the sacrifice of His servant, to save. As Jesus said, and I paraphrase here to show my meaning, "my Father has predestined that all those who will believe and be baptized will be saved." The group of people who would, as they live their lives upon the earth, hear the gospel and believe it; trust the truth of the gospel and the one to whom it points, are predestined, since the foundations of the world were established, to be saved on the day of God's judgment upon all of mankind that would come to exist as time marches on. From the days of Adam, to the days of the last man standing when the earth is destroyed by fire and the heavens be rolled up like a scroll.

I also have an understanding that those who are predestined are not necessarily the same as those who are the 'elect'. The elected, for me, refers to specific and individual people that God has elected to use to further His purposes upon the earth. Enoch was elected. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were elected. Moses was elected and the prophets of the old covenant were elected. John the baptist was elected. Paul and the 12 disciples were elected. Although I believe that Judas forfeited his elected place.

God bless,
Ted
Yes, the promise from the foundation of the earth is to those who believe in Jesus and are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
.
 
Hi Mungo

Don't mean to belabor the point and I've considered your arguments against my understanding of what Jesus was referring to when he uttered the words, "it is finished". However, should I expect an answer to any of my questions to you or should we rather move on with only your disagreement that I'm correct?

I'm not aware that there are outstanding questions.
BTW it is worth considering some English sentence structure here. 'What', in the quoted passage secured the eternal redemption? Was it Jesus entering the Holy Place? Or was it the blood through which he was able to enter the Holy Place. I contend that if it is the blood, then it was when Jesus poured out his blood for us that we became able to attain God's salvation. That would have been when he was on that cross proclaiming that 'it' was finished.

God bless,
Ted

The English structure seems quite clear to me.
he [Jesus] entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

The thus follows from the entering the Holy place taking his blood.
 
I'm not aware that there are outstanding questions.


The English structure seems quite clear to me.
he [Jesus] entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

The thus follows from the entering the Holy place taking his blood.
Hi Mungo

Uh, no. The 'thus' follows the taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood. Good try though. Have we gotten to the place now where you start answering the questions put to you, or is it merely your intention to just beat my understanding without any rebuttal as to your understanding of the words of our Savior?

Is there a valid reason that you're not willing to answer the questions? I mean, is the truth really that you've read the words that Jesus spoke, but you merely have no idea what 'it' was that Jesus was referring to? I mean, I can accept that, but then it makes your position of denial of my understanding rather empty since you obviously have no understanding, how can you 'know' that mine is wrong?

God bless,
Ted
 

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