Mungo
Member
And that may be your opinion but I disagree.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Why did Jesus say "I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God."?
Why?
Jesus would not celebrate with wine until He is celebrating with them in His kingdom.
Its not about drinking wine per se, its about abstaining from celebrating with wine UNTIL they celebrate with Him in His kingdom.
If this were not so, Jesus wouldn't mention the disciples at all. He would have said: I won't drink wine again until the Kingdom comes. So its not about wine alone, its Jesus showing love to His disciples.
Therefore, the "sour wine" given to Him on the cross, did not contradict His promise.
29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth.
30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. (Jn. 19:29-30 NKJ)
Some argue Jesus didn't drink it, but the Greek word translated "received" implies He did. But "sour wine" isn't what Christ promised not to drink.
I believe you are under demonic attack. Making someone confused, causing them to believe contradiction exists in scripture, is a favorite device of the Devil:
"Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Lk. 8:12 NKJ)
Devil and demons can telepathically argue against believing in scripture so subtly, their victim will believe "they are arguing with themselves."
lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2 Cor. 2:11 NKJ)
Free Bible software with commentaries are a great way to deal with demonically inspired doubts about the scripture:
e-Sword: Free Bible Study for the PC
e-Sword is a feature rich and user friendly free Windows app with everything needed to study the Bible in an enjoyable and enriching manner!
e-sword.net
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E-Sword is a good tool. And it is free.Jesus would not celebrate with wine until He is celebrating with them in His kingdom.
Its not about drinking wine per se, its about abstaining from celebrating with wine UNTIL they celebrate with Him in His kingdom.
If this were not so, Jesus wouldn't mention the disciples at all. He would have said: I won't drink wine again until the Kingdom comes. So its not about wine alone, its Jesus showing love to His disciples.
Therefore, the "sour wine" given to Him on the cross, did not contradict His promise.
29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth.
30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. (Jn. 19:29-30 NKJ)
Some argue Jesus didn't drink it, but the Greek word translated "received" implies He did. But "sour wine" isn't what Christ promised not to drink.
I believe you are under demonic attack. Making someone confused, causing them to believe contradiction exists in scripture, is a favorite device of the Devil:
"Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Lk. 8:12 NKJ)
Devil and demons can telepathically argue against believing in scripture so subtly, their victim will believe "they are arguing with themselves."
lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2 Cor. 2:11 NKJ)
Free Bible software with commentaries are a great way to deal with demonically inspired doubts about the scripture:
e-Sword: Free Bible Study for the PC
e-Sword is a feature rich and user friendly free Windows app with everything needed to study the Bible in an enjoyable and enriching manner!
.
And its reasonable to add commentaries etc. Although I have Logos 9 now, E-Sword is great.
Leaving Dodge
Ephesians 5:17 kjv
17. Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
18. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19. Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20. Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
I suppose it is time to check in with what this thread is really about.
It really is not about wine, sour wine and vinegar. Verse 17 is about wisdom.
Verse 18 is about excess. Excess in what? Excess in the human man. We are really a body of death that changes enough to have Christ in us and us in Christ. We will be delivered from this body of death at the last trump. In the mean time we daily put to death the flesh, and fill ourselves with the spirit. for_his_ glory really understands the change that has to be made in us.
More later
eddif
Ephesians 5:17 kjv
17. Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
18. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19. Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20. Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
I suppose it is time to check in with what this thread is really about.
It really is not about wine, sour wine and vinegar. Verse 17 is about wisdom.
Verse 18 is about excess. Excess in what? Excess in the human man. We are really a body of death that changes enough to have Christ in us and us in Christ. We will be delivered from this body of death at the last trump. In the mean time we daily put to death the flesh, and fill ourselves with the spirit. for_his_ glory really understands the change that has to be made in us.
More later
eddif
Verse 19 is about placing spiritual things inside a new born again person. Spiritual things will rupture the carnal man.
So what is wine. I do not mean fermented grape juice. Wine is a type and shadow. Just as Jesus tells that seeds are the Word of God, wine is the presence of the word become flesh inside us. Jesus was broken for us. I suppose we could see the fermentation process as what happened spiritually to Jesus. His body did not see corruption, but he bore our sins in his body. You do realize others can help in this description (verse 21).
Verse 20 gives the credit to God. This is where we see giving undue credit to our work is excess, but give credit to God. God works in us to will and do pfhisgood pleasure. The Holy Spirit is the power to witness. Our obedience springs from God working in us. As we complete the suffering of Christ.
Colossians 1:24 kjv
24. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25. Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28. Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29. Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
And this verse 29 is where we should be (striving). Totally arrived? Not till the last trump.
So
Fruit of vine sweet in our mouth.
Wine fermenting in our belly
Sour wine out taste of natural death.
All this placed in two areas
Law placed in our heart where suffering takes place.
Law placed in our mind where the influence of Spirit works.
Romans 7:25 kjv
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Types and shadows of things to come.
Verse 28 is we. Comments of others.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
On the one hand:
"It is true that He had not yet died, but His death, burial, and ascension were as certain as if already accomplished."
And on the other:
"he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Heb 9:11-12
The middle clause is subordinate to the first clause, not the last clause. That is standard grammatical method. That means that the last clause pertains to the first clause, not the middle clause. Therefore, in English at least, the sentence may be read as if the middle clause is in parenthesis. So, the question of whether "entered" or "blood" is of primary importance in this sentence is clear; "entered" is primary. That does not mean that "blood" is irrelevant. Both are needed to effect the intended consequence.
I suppose that this would fall under the heading of transition theology, like the OT/NT transition, so it is relevant.
There are two aspects to this, the physical completion, and the spiritual completion.
It's that simple.
The physical completion of the Lord's work coincided with the completion of the fourth cup.
The teaching of the fourth cup is a wonderful aspect of God's plan as it unfolded in time.
The number four is very significant, and this goes far deeper than is generally known.
The spiritual completion of the Lord's work occurred when entering the heavenly Holy Place.
Everything that happened between these two points is not soteriologically relevant, as;
Everything that happened between these two points was soteriologically determinate.
So, in terms of salvation, it's as if Jesus said, "It is finished", then entered the Holiest.
It really is that simple. Or is it?
Further, it may well be that both things occurred simultaneously. There is nothing saying that Jesus had to wait until after He ascended to the Father (in His physical resurrection body). Jesus is the high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. As high priest, in Spirit He can enter the Holiest in Heaven when it is proper, even previous to His death. He had a juxtaposed existence, just as do we: "But God ... made us alive together in Christ, and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places" Eph2:4-6.
What I find interesting is that previously Jesus said, "I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I drink it new with you in the kingdom of heaven". Yet it is written in John19:29 that He drank sour (or common) wine from a sponge at the end of a hyssop branch. John prefaced this event with the statement that "Jesus, knowing that all things had been accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!". This is from Psa69:21 "They also gave me gall for my food, And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink". The gall wine is recounted in the synoptic gospels, and the vinegar wine is recounted in John.
The fact that all things had been accomplished before the sour wine was received means that Jesus entered the Holiest in heaven just before He received the sour wine, and the reception of the sour wine was what was meant when He had said in the upper room, "until I drink it new with you in the kingdom of heaven". The fact that He was not just drinking sour wine on earth, but also drinking wine in the spiritual kingdom of heaven indicates that His blood had been received, and His blood was the wine of the new covenant, and it was being dispensed and consumed as He had previously said, "I drink it new with you in the kingdom of heaven". Therefore, as His blood had been given, and was being consumed, He died. He did not die because of the crucifixion, therefore, but because He had given His blood in the kingdom of Heaven. His death was the result of His sacrifice, and so it was not the case that his death provided the atonement. It was rather, His life which provided the atonement; his lifeblood.
This is the correct conclusion, and it may only be reached through the juxtaposition doctrine.
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John 20:17 kjv
17. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God
eddif
Here is that section of Scripture -- in context: Hebrews 9:11-14, "But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, and he entered once for all into the Most Holy Place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God." NET
The word "thus" is in some translations but not others. It is poor exegesis to base doctrine on one translated English word.
Translated into English, in context...
John 20:15-18, "Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Who are you looking for?” Because she thought he was the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will take him.” Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabboni” (which means Teacher). Jesus replied, “Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Mary Magdalene came and informed the disciples, “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them what Jesus had said to her." NET
Here is the order of events for you people.
Jesus first mentions the cup He has to drink from ( we know it is His own blood) and the baptism is unto the death, and it is why we are baptized unto His death.)
Maybe you do not know this, and the cup is the cup of His death, which also is the cup of His resurrection.
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Jesus made clear what the cup was, it is His blood of the new testament, shed for many for the remission of sins( Jesus speaks as it is done, as with God all already is.)
Now here is the point for you people, ( and not talking about whether Jesus did or did not receive the vinegar)
Focus, and you might see higher than earth reasoning of men.
Jesus will not drink henceforth until the day He drinks it NEW WITH US, IN THE FATHERS KINGDOM.
Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Here is that fulfillent( it is testified for faith so we believe in the rising of Jesus Christ from the dead, as all is spoken for this purpose in scripture)
We drink that cup in remembrance of Christ, the cup is the NEW testament in His blood.
1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
This is HOW it is NEW. This is how we drink this fruit of the vine NEW WITH JESUS IN THE KINGDOM OF THE FATHER.
HENCEFORTH, WE KNOW NO MAN AFTER THE FLESH, NOW HENCEFORTH WE KNOW CHRIST NO MORE AFTER THE FLESH.
IF WE ARE IN CHRIST, TO DRINK THE FRUIT OF THE VINE NEW WITH HIM IN THE FATHERS KINGDOM WITHIN US NOW, WE ARE A NEW CREATURE, OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW.
Now knowing Christ only in the Spirit, we drink that cup of the fruit of the vine, the cup of the new testament in the Lords blood, new in ourselves, with Him in us in a NEW CREATURE.
All the earthly reasoning in the world means just that, you show you beliefs are on earth. Why not look up higher while it is being told for you, for a little while. ( unless you only want to ignore, as you have done for all I have shared on the forum, but I am only here as a testimony, for exactly that.)
2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Jesus first mentions the cup He has to drink from ( we know it is His own blood) and the baptism is unto the death, and it is why we are baptized unto His death.)
Maybe you do not know this, and the cup is the cup of His death, which also is the cup of His resurrection.
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Jesus made clear what the cup was, it is His blood of the new testament, shed for many for the remission of sins( Jesus speaks as it is done, as with God all already is.)
Now here is the point for you people, ( and not talking about whether Jesus did or did not receive the vinegar)
Focus, and you might see higher than earth reasoning of men.
Jesus will not drink henceforth until the day He drinks it NEW WITH US, IN THE FATHERS KINGDOM.
Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Here is that fulfillent( it is testified for faith so we believe in the rising of Jesus Christ from the dead, as all is spoken for this purpose in scripture)
We drink that cup in remembrance of Christ, the cup is the NEW testament in His blood.
1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
This is HOW it is NEW. This is how we drink this fruit of the vine NEW WITH JESUS IN THE KINGDOM OF THE FATHER.
HENCEFORTH, WE KNOW NO MAN AFTER THE FLESH, NOW HENCEFORTH WE KNOW CHRIST NO MORE AFTER THE FLESH.
IF WE ARE IN CHRIST, TO DRINK THE FRUIT OF THE VINE NEW WITH HIM IN THE FATHERS KINGDOM WITHIN US NOW, WE ARE A NEW CREATURE, OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW.
Now knowing Christ only in the Spirit, we drink that cup of the fruit of the vine, the cup of the new testament in the Lords blood, new in ourselves, with Him in us in a NEW CREATURE.
All the earthly reasoning in the world means just that, you show you beliefs are on earth. Why not look up higher while it is being told for you, for a little while. ( unless you only want to ignore, as you have done for all I have shared on the forum, but I am only here as a testimony, for exactly that.)
2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Objection as to the method of entry? Here's how:
Jaybo was making a different point, but the text was the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I boldfaced the part that is relevant to the perspective of His entry into the Holiest in heaven just before the sour wine
(fourth cup).
Now consider this. I said that Jesus did not die as a result of the crucifixion, but rather His death was the result of the Him delivering His blood into the Holiest in Heaven, then dispensing His blood of the new covenant as believers drink it new in the kingdom of God.
Jesus was not put to death, because He could not be killed. He chose to die for the sins of the world.
John10:18 "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."
Now savor this, as you read it over, and contemplate it in your heart. Be blessed.
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Now consider who Jesus Christ is, who is made after the power of an endless life, that is the power He received of the Father, as it was not possible to hold the Prince of life in death.
Hear the voice of the Son of God( the voice of life) and live.
John 5: 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Mungo
Member
"It is poor exegesis to base doctrine on one translated English word".
I'll remember you said that.
Thank you. Very wonderful to me.
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
It was the intent of the people to kill Jesus, and free Barabbas. Peter wanted them to understand the magnitude of their error, and repent; for the proof was that such a miraculous healing had occurred. Still, Jesus was not killed, but rather he laid down His life. Otherwise, His atonement would not have been able to cover the sins of those that murdered Him. It was a perfect atonement:
Luke23:34 "Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots."
Four garments:
John19:23 "Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece."
2Col5:2 "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
2Col5:3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
2Col5:4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life."
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
It was the intent of the people to kill Jesus, and free Barabbas. Peter wanted them to understand the magnitude of their error, and repent; for the proof was that such a miraculous healing had occurred. Still, Jesus was not killed, but rather he laid down His life. Otherwise, His atonement would not have been able to cover the sins of those that murdered Him. It was a perfect atonement:
Luke23:34 "Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots."
Four garments:
John19:23 "Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece."
2Col5:2 "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
2Col5:3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
2Col5:4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life."
What is the matter with you? Why are you so combative?
I wrote: "The word "thus" is in some translations but not others. It is poor exegesis to base doctrine on one translated English word". I was referring to the word "thus", which obviously has weak importance.
Can you ban yourself for your nasty attitude or do you just ban me whenever you feel like it?
Mungo
Member
I thought you would be pleased that I valued your advice.
So now add sarcasm to your attitude. Where did you learn to be so hostile? Is that combative, nasty attitude taught by your priests?
Quite obviously you are using your position as moderator improperly. You aren't discussing the OP subject. You're making it personal. I am reporting you to the site owner.
He banned me as well.