RBDERRICK
Supporter
I didn't cease, and you still came back.
Also, accusing people of twisting Scripture, because they ask you a simple straightforward question, would be called an accusation.
You made it personal.
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Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?
- Thread starter RBDERRICK
- Start date
Also, accusing people of twisting Scripture, because they ask you a simple straightforward question, would be called an accusation.
You made it personal.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Yes. I have a difficult time understanding how a person could believe that, yes, Jesus is the atonement for our sins...
but sees nothing in His life to support the teachings of Jesus to try to make this a better world through our Christian faith.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Right.
So where in the above verses does it state that GOD CHOOSES WHOM WILL BE SAVED???
Please point it out since I don't see and probably 90% of the persons on this thread.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Whatever you wish to believe regarding this..go ahead and believe that
Jesus did not intend to make this world a better place through His teachings.
I guess the Beatitudes, Matthew chapters 5 through 7, He was just talking with no
end game in mind.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Oh, I see.
You mean like this:
. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
John Calvin's Insitutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5
So, basically, the problem here is that you prefer to learn from a man named John Calvin, who wrote a book about 5 or 6 hundred years ago, instead of the Apostles who lived and breathed the same air as Jesus for over 3 years.
Smart move.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Good works/deeds are necessary Jaybo.
Make no mistake about it.
Read Matthew chapter 25:31-46 and then come back and give us a report.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Cute Roger.
I ask questions so you could THINK.
Not because I need answers.
And certainly not from someone who is calvinist in his theology.
Calvin, born in the 1500's.
Got a brand new idea which did NOT EXIST before him.
Except for some guy named Augustine, who lived about 4 or 5 hundred years after Christ and got some weird idea WHICH THE EARLY CHURCH THEOLOGIANS NEVER EVEN DREAMED OF.
Yeah. Caps.
Because this is very important.
And I'm not the one that needs to translate the KJV before I understand...
but some on these here threads are the ones that should be using a more modern translation
so verses could actually be understood.
These enough? They are as clear and as precise as they can be. Read them carefully and think about what they're saying. There are many more like these - in fact this doctrine is the basis of the Bible.
[2Ti 1:9 KJV]
9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
[2Ti 1:10 KJV]
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
[Eph 1:1, 3-6, 11, 17 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: ...
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
[Rev 17:8 KJV] 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Please, wondering, don't do me any favors.
I don't really want to get between you and jaybo on this except to say that you've asked the wrong question and
made the wrong assumption about those verses. You should have asked: who would do the things
stated in the verses, and why would they do them? Answer: only those who have been saved, because they have been saved. You need to look at those verses through a spiritual perspective, that they are symbolic and as such,speak of things spiritual, not humanistic or temporal - they are that the saved are to share the gospel.
Good works/deeds should be done according to one's ability. There are people who are old, handicapped, mentally challenged, etc. who are incapable of performing meaningful "works" for others (excluding prayer). It is not a competition!
I am 78 years old and cannot do the "works" that I used to do when I was younger. For example, I was a church elder and did many things for our congregation and our community. Now my main "work" is contributing what I can financially for the well-being of others. For example, we had devastating forest fires this year in New Mexico; I contributed what money I could.
Do you think that God holds it against me if I no longer do what you consider "works"?
That's absurd. I always include verses that support any statement I make. I don't care about Calvin, and am unfamiliar
with him except in passing. You would do well to read the Bible yourself and try to understand its message, instead of criticizing me - you never know, you just might stumble upon the same verses and gain wisdom.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Roger,
1. God foreknew everything that was to happen over all time.
Foreknowing is different than Predestinating.
God would be an incredibly unjust God if HE chose who would be saved and who would be damned.
Please don't go into the WE ALL SHOULD BE DAMNED...I just can't take it anymore.
A just God will give everyone equal opportunity to be saved.
Just as scripture states:
John 3:16
And yes, John 3:16 is a PRESCRPTIVE verse, and not DESCRIPTIVE.
It is a prescription for HOW to be saved.
It is not speaking for who is already saved.
Why would we even need the NT if God chooses whom He will?
Why would Jesus have to atone for our sins if God chooses us AND
predestines the rest to horrible acts: Like murder, terrorism, rape, etc.
God wrote names in the Book of Life.
But HE didn't pick the persons, He just knew who would come to believe in Him.
2. None of your verses state that God predestined those who will be saved.
Only the following sounds like He did and there is a very simple explanation for it.
[Eph 1:1, 3-6, 11, 17 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: ...
Ephesians 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
Paul is writing to the born again at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Jesus.
Ephesians 1:3
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Blessed by God means that we acknowledge how worthy God is for us.
He is the Father of Christ and has blessed us with knowing Jesus, thus having been chosen for salvation through Jesus
because we are united with Him.
Ephesians 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
God chose us IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world.
His plan was that we would be saved by God's grace in the acceptance of His Son by us.
CHOSEN IN HIM. In Christ we are saved. This was God's plan of salvation because He knew we would fail in the Garden. The plan of our salvation was PREDESTINED...the HOW was PREDESTINED... not the WHO.
Ephesians 1:5
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
What is predestined in the above is the ADOPTION as children by Jesus.
THIS is His good pleasure...that through the atoning work of Christ we can be saved and called Children of God.
Ephesians 1:6
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. ...
By the good grace of God, we are accepted by Him through His Beloved...Jesus.
Ephesians 1:11
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: ...
We have obtained an inheritance...heaven.
This has been predestined according to God's purpose...
His purpose must surely be to save as many as possible as Paul state in 1 Timothy 2:4...God our savior desires that all men come to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.
Verse 6 of 1 Timothy 2:6 states that Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL.
God knew we would fail in the Garden.
He planned from the beginning how to resolve this problem.
It was through the atoning work of Jesus FOR ALL MEN.
Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself.
God wishes that all men be saved...but not all will accept Him.
Why would Paul say this if God chose who would be saved?
The predestinating was as to HOW and not as to WHO.
I hope you really read this and give it thought.
It took some time to write it.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
And yet, my Christian love for you would want that you come to see how faulty calvinism is.
And that you're serving a God of love and mercy.
AND JUSTICE...I never leave that out.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I agree!
Only those that are saved need to obey what Jesus commands in Matthew 25...certainly the unbelievers could also do these works but they will be useless since they have no faith.
However, they are not symbolic.
Jesus said to feed the hungry...with food.
Cloth the naked...with clothes.
Visit the sick....actually go to the home or hospital.
I don't think Jesus said anything about sharing the gospel in Matthew 25.
This is just a cheap grace way of getting out of doing good for others.
And you're not getting between Jaybo and myself.
This is a thread for everyone...not a formal debate between 2 posters.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
No.
I think God is smarter than I am and He knows your condition.
I have an autistic granddaughter.
What do you suppose God expects from her?
God will not be mocked.
He knows our hearts and our conditions.
Everything we do we do for God.
Colossians 3:17
You completely missed the message of the verses. You either didn't read them, or if you did, you failed to grasp them. No sense continuing further with this dialogue, at least not for now.
So that whole argument against "works" has no merit.
Thanks, and not to be rude, but I'd rather not follow the blind
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I'm sorry Roger.
But the verses you post do not support your theology.
They cannot.
Because you're not properly representing the God of the NT as revealed by Jesus.
Even the OT exhorts us to seek God.
1 Chronicles 16:11
Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!
2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Deuteronomy 4:29
But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Psalm 9:10
And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.
Isaiah 55:6-7
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.
Why would we need to seek God IF it's HE doing the choosing??