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Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

How does God "intervene" to change us into a spiritual man?

Does God not intervene for everyone?

No. They become changed to a spiritual man through that God as a complete gift, gives to them spiritual rebirth and spiritual life - being born again.
No, He definitely does not do that for everyone but only for those whom He has chosen to salvation, at salvation

[Jhn 3:3 KJV] 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[Jhn 3:6 KJV] 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

[1Pe 1:23 KJV] 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
 
God admonishes man to seek God and His Kingdom.

[Mat 5:45 KJV] 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Rain is a symbol of the gospel. God, by sending that rain upon everyone didn't intend that everyone can, will, or are supposed to respond to it in a way that is to their spiritual advantage: It is to the one, life unto life, and to the other, death unto death.
 
Had been justified by Christ's works, not his. Only Christ can give spiritual justification.

[Tit 3:7 KJV] 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We are justified by God's grace.
We agree.

Christ's faith was imputed to Abraham- only Christ's faithfulness has righteousness, not ours.
Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS (being right with God) is imputed to man...
NOT HIS FAITH.

Could you please provide some verses that support this idea?
Maybe 2 or 3 would be nice.

[Rom 4:3 KJV] 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Correct.
RIGHTEOUSNESS
NOT FAITH
Abraham's faith, his belief in God - which is faith- was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

If v23 was meant the way you interpret it, logically speaking, it should say that righteousness was counted to him for (because of) his faith, but instead it says that it (faith) was counted for righteousness. Therefore, since that Christ's faith that was reckoned, works and righteousness were also reckoned to Abraham. Faith, Christ's faith, was counted/reckoned to Abraham and because of that, he believed.

Huh?
I'm not here to debate the English language.
Please read that again until it's understood by you.

ABRAHAM'S FAITH WAS COUNTED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

For goodness sake Roger, try again:
(and maybe use a modern version that doesn't have to be translated first by us...

Romans 4:9 NASB
9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Faith was credited to Abraham....Abraham got Faith credited to his bank account.
As righteousness.... The credit in his bank account is RIGHTEOUSNESS....not faith


Romans 4:9 NLT
9Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles?c Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith.

Abraham was counted as RIGHTEOUS BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH.

FAITH makes you RIGHTEOUS with God.
Not the other way around.
It's simple English.
The KJV was written 400 years ago.
We have enough problems trying to understand this scripture (or so it seems)
without using OLD ENGLISH, which most cannot comprehend.

Tit 3:7 KJV] 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We're justified by grace.
Correct.

Maybe you could explain
JUSTIFICATION
RIGHTEOUSNESS
FAITH

[Gal 3:10-11, 14 KJV]
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith. ...
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Again, you have THE LAW mixed up with good works/deeds, which are necessary for the born-again believer.
 
We are justified by God's grace.
We agree.


Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS (being right with God) is imputed to man...
NOT HIS FAITH.

Could you please provide some verses that support this idea?
Maybe 2 or 3 would be nice.



Correct.
RIGHTEOUSNESS
NOT FAITH
Abraham's faith, his belief in God - which is faith- was counted to Abraham as righteousness.



Huh?
I'm not here to debate the English language.
Please read that again until it's understood by you.

ABRAHAM'S FAITH WAS COUNTED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.



For goodness sake Roger, try again:
(and maybe use a modern version that doesn't have to be translated first by us...

Romans 4:9 NASB
9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Faith was credited to Abraham....Abraham got Faith credited to his bank account.
As righteousness.... The credit in his bank account is RIGHTEOUSNESS....not faith


Romans 4:9 NLT
9Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles?c Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith.

Abraham was counted as RIGHTEOUS BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH.

FAITH makes you RIGHTEOUS with God.
Not the other way around.
It's simple English.
The KJV was written 400 years ago.
We have enough problems trying to understand this scripture (or so it seems)
without using OLD ENGLISH, which most cannot comprehend.



We're justified by grace.
Correct.

Maybe you could explain
JUSTIFICATION
RIGHTEOUSNESS
FAITH


Again, you have THE LAW mixed up with good works/deeds, which are necessary for the born-again believer.
Appropriate yes, necessary no.
 
For goodness sake Roger, try again:
(and maybe use a modern version that doesn't have to be translated first by us...

Romans 4:9 NASB
9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

Faith was credited to Abraham.
 
For goodness sake Roger, try again:
(and maybe use a modern version that doesn't have to be translated first by us...
If you're translating for me, then why are you doing all of the asking, and I doing all of the answering?
I don't need your translation for me. You, apparently, need to have it translated for you - that's why you keep asking
the questions, not me.
 
It's only in your imagination that I am making an accusation against James teaching salvation by works, by teaching justification by works. Just as you quoted James, I am quoting Paul, "Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?"

I'm not interested in the OSAS doctrine. I don't know where you are getiing your doctrine rom, nor do I care.

You need to let Scripture rule your mind and doctrine, not your own imagination. Until you cease twisting the teaching of others into a lie, and become a serious person who answers serious questions, I won't discuss anything further with you.
Thank you.
 
Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast."

You can post whatever you want, but I believe what Paul clearly wrote.
I thought you were done with me.

Lying is sinning.
 
But what you say would make NO SENSE whatsoever to a first century Jew who followed Jesus. The mentality is completely off.
Because I'm not a Jew, nor in the first century, and I care about neither. Neither do you, except to somehow use them to justify yourself.

You have to realize that sin encompasses a LOT more than just what you think it does. And no, not all sins are equal. they never were and never will be.

The Hebrew Scriptures (OT) list sins, transgressions and iniquities. They are all different and should not be lumped together into the same pot.

Sins are things you are trying to do right but fail in the attempt. (archery term to aim at the target but miss)
Transgressions are when you INTENTIONALLY disobey God. (much worse than sins)
Iniquities are the transgenerational effects and tendencies of your parents and grandparents sins and transgressions.
I don't care about your definitions either. Scripture says all sin is transgression of the law, and all unrighteousness is sin.

The law of Christ tells us what sin is today, which includes fornication, drunkenness, thefts, idolatry, etc...

Your refusal to answer a simple question that Scripture speaks of, is your own guilty conscience.

No man can be born of God and not of the devil, while committing the sin of fornication, drunkenness, idolatry, etc..

If you or I are sinning against God with the devil, neither of us are being saved and justified by Christ.

The reason you don't answer, is because I leave you no room to now pull out your back of tricks theology and definitions about what 'commit' is, or 'committing' is, or even what 'sin' is.

Which also I care nothing for, because neither does Jesus. Our theological seminaries do not save nor justify us while committing sin with the devil. It didn't help Adam nor Eve, nor Cain, nor Judas, nor even Lucifer himself.

The eternal consequences of all 3 are mitigated by the death of our Messiah.
You don't even know what that means. I use Scripture words to teach Scriptural doctrine of Christ. Jesus died for our sins. He did not die for our sinning.

No man repents of sinning for his name's sake, while thinking He died, so that they could be sinning under grace.

That is why the grace and cross of Jesus is blasphemed by the unbelievers.

The strength to change them into effective obedience is in His resurrection.
Which strength is not there while sinning against Him and His resurrection. The soul sinning is dead, and not alive to God.

No birth, no Spirit, no fellowship, nothing but the devil and the lust of this world like any other sinner on earth.

Christians sinning not only stinks like others, but stinks more to God, than others that don't name His name.

Salvation brings us thru adoption into the New Covenant. My wife and I raised 4 kids, and now we are helping to raise 2 adopted grandkids. Do they always do everything perfectly? No. Do they intentionally disobey sometimes? You bet. Does any of that have any bearing on whether or not they are my kids and grandkids? NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT!
You're not God.

And you're boldly printed words with exclamation is not the word of God.

And not sinning for the devil, is not doing everything perfectly. Mixing perfect living in the flesh with sinning for the devil, is the favorite play for self-justification.

Fornication is rebellion against God. Forgetting where our keys are is not.

Also, your kids don't save you, no matter how many you have.

Likewise, if we mess up, accidentally or intentionally, we are still HIS children and still saved. But just as my kids get disciplined, so do we.

Neither is sinning with the devil called messing up. That's child talk. "Sorry, Mommy, I messed up."

God's chastisement is letting us separate ourselves from Him by sinning, and only a born son would know the difference, and be brought to repentance to be restored to his fellowship and salvation:

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

The chastisement of the Lord is not the common affects of sinning upon the mind and flesh of all sinners.

His chastisement is not having us suffer the 'morning after', like all sinners do.

And if you don't know the difference between being separated from God, to not know Him, because of sinning against Him, then you don't know Him, because you are still a sinner committed to sinning, and have not repented of sinning to be born of Him with power to become His righteous and holy son on earth.

Which don't include sinning for the devil.

The flesh of bones of Jesus is not sinning now today, nor more than he was in the days of His flesh.

I know Him, and I know as John says, I can't be sinning against Him in riotous living tonight, and still be born of Him and know Him.

All that matters is now with the Lord, and our last step on earth will either be doing righteously with Him, or sinning with the devil.

He paid the price just to make it our choice:

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
 
Because I'm not a Jew, nor in the first century, and I care about neither. Neither do you, except to somehow use them to justify yourself.
You should. The truth of scripture cannot be derived from looking at it with 21st century eyes. You have to go back to the original language texts and see them how the initial audience would have seen them.
 
Which logic? Pagan Aristotelian or biblical Hebrew logic?

Did you know there was a difference?
Neither - logic-logic. I believe that, as much as is possible, it transcends and is independent of other factors, standing
only upon itself to identify the possible.
 
I’d agree with that, except it’s God that does the changing…

1 Corinthians 15:10 NASB
[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

The grace of God gave Paul the energy to carry on as he did.
He was what he was by the grace of God, who appeared to him on the way to Damascus.
So he had the energy.
But it was Paul that did not put it to waste...

Do you give him any credit at all?

Again...
If we do not adhere to what the Holy Spirit whispers in our ear...
does this mean that He is weak and unable to do His job?
Or does it mean we don't listen?
So if it means we don't listen...
don't you think we deserve some credit for being obedient to God?

Romans 5:10 NASB
[10] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
This has nothing to do with our discussion.
 
The ten commandments are pretty easy to keep. I mean, which of us has murdered or stolen a man’s goods. It’s the loving others as you love yourself that tough.

The problem with lowering the bar to “no one can obey 100%” is it begs the question as to what % is ok and does God measure % anyway? What if God measures particular disobedience as worse than another? What if numbers aren’t important to him? uh oh!

And yes, I agree. He is faithful to forgive confessed sin.
Can't remember if I replied to the above.
I know what you're saying.
And I agree.

But the question that is begged is:
Are we Christians sinless?
Do we obey 100% of the time?

Probably God does think of some sin as worse than others, although to such a perfect being all sin must be horrible.
I think I did say that God cannot be mocked. (if I've already answered, please ignore).
 
What could you possible love more than our Savior that would cause you to commit a sin?
Sin puts other desires above God's desires, ergo sin is idolatry.
Well Hopeful, you would say something like this.
I've become tired of debating this with you.
If you could be sinless, I applaud you and wish I could be the same.
But, being human, I'm sure I sin every day, even at times without realizing it, maybe,
and I'm thankful that God can forgive us, as John stated several times, and as Jesus Himself stated.

Matthew 6:12
"And forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us..."


I think this means that Jesus knew we could sin.
 
Of course. It's called obedience.

We are not justified without them, and eternal salvation is only for them that obey Him.

Our first works and obedience to God is within a pure heart, to cast away any unrighteous thoughts and imagination for sinning.

Once we are doing that by His Spirit, then it becomes easy to do so in the flesh.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matthew)
Amen to that!
 
Good point. Sinners always accuse the righteous of trying to be saved by works, and of teaching it. It's like the only cross they bear, to throw up against any works having anything to do with being saved and justified by Christ.

They treat James 2 like an evil vampire coming to suck out all their permanently saved and preserved blood.




The church of Satan's 1st commandment is "I will do no harm."

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3)

Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. (3 John)

Faith alone only hears the knocking, but obeying His voice to open the door is them that are doers of the word and hearers only.

Scripture does not say we are being saved by grace through faith alone. Alone is added to Scripture by the hearers only.
Very well put.
:nod
 
You should. The truth of scripture cannot be derived from looking at it with 21st century eyes. You have to go back to the original language texts and see them how the initial audience would have seen them.
That is a favorite tool of those changing the Scriptures as written today: they dive into the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic or Syriac or Latin or whatever, and come up with something completely different than what is plainly written.

And it always results in justifying sinning and/or denying Jesus is God.

God did not have His Scriptures translated into all languages of men, if they still need to be some sort of original languages scholar to know the simple truth of Christ, that faith without works is dead, and no man sinning for the devil is a born son of God.

It's not rocket science, but Scripture written as to little children.

And becoming manuscript gurus is even worse.
 
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