Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[GodsGrace]

You completely missed the message of the verses. You either didn't read them, or if you did, you failed to grasp them. No sense continuing further with this dialogue, at least not for now.

You could explain them just like I did.
I take time Roger, because this is an important aspect of our faith.
If you notice, I don't participate unless it's about soteriology.
This is important for understanding God.

 

[GodsGrace]

So that whole argument against "works" has no merit.

Of course it has merit.

I think we get The Law mixed up with works.

Works are a necessary component of the Christian faith.
It's all Jesus spoke about.
Having faith and doing good works.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks, and not to be rude, but I'd rather not follow the blind

Good.
Then don't follow the teachings of John Calvin.

 

[rogerg]

Then don't follow the teachings of John Calvin.

I don't - although we both may have independently reached the same conclusions regarding what the Bible teaches.

 

[rogerg]

Then don't follow the teachings of John Calvin.

Actually, I had you in mind

 

[crossnote]

The grace of God gave Paul the energy to carry on as he did.
He was what he was by the grace of God, who appeared to him on the way to Damascus.
So he had the energy.
But it was Paul that did not put it to waste...

Do you give him any credit at all?

Again...
If we do not adhere to what the Holy Spirit whispers in our ear...
does this mean that He is weak and unable to do His job?
Or does it mean we don't listen?
So if it means we don't listen...
don't you think we deserve some credit for being obedient to God?

All I said was, “God does the changing”. Do you disagree with that?

 

[Runmyramble]

The new birth of the spirit is inwardly but not outwardly which would be the flesh, right? The flesh is unchanged after the new birth of the spirit. It's left to us to overcome the flesh.

Overcoming the flesh is done by always doing the right thing. Always doing the best thing. This trains one's mind and flesh to submit to the Spirit. So it becomes natural to do the right thing as you say. Which are typically good works.

Works do not effect salvation but works do make changes to ones heart and affecting spiritual growth. But of course most of us do not always know what is the right thing to do in every given situation. So this keeps us clinging to the Lord.

Pray without ceasing indeed.

---

but works do make changes to ones heart and affecting spiritual growth. But of course most of us do not always know what is the right thing to do in every given situation. So this keeps us clinging to the Lord.

Works do not effect salvation? Isn't all related....

What is the Salvation you speak?

 

[Runmyramble]

All I said was, “God does the changing”. Do you disagree with that?

Does He do it with or without your effort?

 

[crossnote]

Does He do it with or without your effort?

What effort did the thief on the cross expend?

In our case...
we expend 'effort' because it is God who is working in us...

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Php 2:12-13)

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
(Gal 2:20)

 

[Runmyramble]

What effort did the thief on the cross expend?

In our case...
we expend 'effort' because it is God who is working in us...

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Php 2:12-13)

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
(Gal 2:20)

Did the theif fall under the new Covenant?

 

[Runmyramble]

What effort did the thief on the cross expend?

In our case...
we expend 'effort' because it is God who is working in us...

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Php 2:12-13)

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
(Gal 2:20)

Hi, thanks now what does that mean...what does it look like

 

[Miyagisan]

Which is nothing but a doctrine of demons.

I agree with that. Where is the faith? Does not scripture say, "Faith without "WORKS" is dead? Remember, you are the church. There is only ONE Gospel! Have you ever heard of "The Church of the What's Happening Now"?

 

[Hopeful]

Well Hopeful, you would say something like this.
I've become tired of debating this with you.
If you could be sinless, I applaud you and wish I could be the same.
But, being human, I'm sure I sin every day, even at times without realizing it, maybe,
and I'm thankful that God can forgive us, as John stated several times, and as Jesus Himself stated.

Matthew 6:12
"And forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us..."

I think this means that Jesus knew we could sin.

I retired from being merely a "human" when I was crucified with Christ and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
I am a new creature now, reborn of God's seed, and with a divine nature.
Thanks be to God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes. I have a difficult time understanding how a person could believe that, yes, Jesus is the atonement for our sins...
but sees nothing in His life to support the teachings of Jesus to try to make this a better world through our Christian faith.

Oh there is a whole world of delightful information for you to discover. Did you know that slavery was ended first in Britain (who ruled a great deal of the planet) by a christian? He worked tirelessly to make it illegal solely because of the view that each human is equally valuable. Did you know that the Red Cross was started by christians? I live in Europe and as the gospel went through the nations, Christians started schools and hospitals and orphanages and homes for the aged. The major universities in the east were started by Christians. The idea of men created equal is a christian concept pure. I could go on and on. Christians have established just governments, education for all, not just the rich, medical care, inventions to ease the drudgery of labor, many many things. Christians saw this as bringing the Kingdom of Christ to the world. God loves people. His goal isn’t that Heaven is populated. It’s positively delightful.

Do you want a real good book that’s an autobiography so not dry? “Bruchko” is excellent.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Good works/deeds should be done according to one's ability. There are people who are old, handicapped, mentally challenged, etc. who are incapable of performing meaningful "works" for others (excluding prayer). It is not a competition!

I am 78 years old and cannot do the "works" that I used to do when I was younger. For example, I was a church elder and did many things for our congregation and our community. Now my main "work" is contributing what I can financially for the well-being of others. For example, we had devastating forest fires this year in New Mexico; I contributed what money I could.

Do you think that God holds it against me if I no longer do what you consider "works"?

The works God wants are those He tells you to do.

 

[D-D-W]

That is a favorite tool of those changing the Scriptures as written today: they dive into the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic or Syriac or Latin or whatever, and come up with something completely different than what is plainly written.

The only reason that those who do that "come up with something completely different," is because no translation is ever adequate to truly convey what is said in the original. You are taking a translation as being the bottom line when it clearly is not.

 

[D-D-W]

Did the theif fall under the new Covenant?

No - under the Mosaic (assuming he was Jewish)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That is a favorite tool of those changing the Scriptures as written today: they dive into the Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic or Syriac or Latin or whatever, and come up with something completely different than what is plainly written.

And it always results in justifying sinning and/or denying Jesus is God.

God did not have His Scriptures translated into all languages of men, if they still need to be some sort of original languages scholar to know the simple truth of Christ, that faith without works is dead, and no man sinning for the devil is a born son of God.

It's not rocket science, but Scripture written as to little children.

And becoming manuscript gurus is even worse.

I laughed at this one. So true. I got a picture of a scene in the original Toy Story where those identical space toys encountered something and all simultaneously said, “ahhhhh” in great reverence and respect. That’s how we are to respond when a Greek word is dissected before us…

 

[Runmyramble]

I agree with that. Where is the faith? Does not scripture say, "Faith without "WORKS" is dead? Remember, you are the church. There is only ONE Gospel! Have you ever heard of "The Church of the What's Happening Now"?

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Edward]

Works do not effect salvation? Isn't all related....

I thought I said that. Works do not effect salvation, but works do affect aspects of salvation. Because everything is related.

Doing good works with no faith or love will not get anyone into heaven. Works can only mean anything after one has been born again and received salvation..

What is the Salvation you speak?

Good question. Want the textbook answer or the street answer? lol.

I have been born again, ok? And if you have ever been in the presence of the Lord, you will know that...that is our reward! Ohhh, His Name is Yeshua and to know Him and talk with Him is Life changing. It means more than just not dying in the lake of fire, it means I have a friend who is closer than my Brother.

When Jesus walks into the room (it happened to me one time. I didnt see Him but He spoke audibly), but when Jesus walks into the room, His very presence is absolute love and a power which bring ones very soul into expotentiation. I was lifted up in spirit. It felt good. I suppose I was exposed to a minute bit of the Lord's glory?

In John 14:3 it says,
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.../KJV

And 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tells us it will be forever.

17 ...to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.../

And that my Brother, is my salvation. That is the reward. The relationship with Yeshua. Scripture seems to explain as some sort of adoption process and we have been given the power to become sons of God. And scripture also speaks of an inheritance, one where we are like family and we help each other out. So becoming born again leads on right into good works. Be as we cooperate with our friend in Jesus and do what He says, it is allowing Him the ability to do His own good works through us. And we are the boots on the ground. If we go awol then it doesn;t get done. If we obey. then the world is more able to see the light of God. And scripture also referes to good works as the clothing of the roghteous or the Linen, some thing like that. And the Lord rewards Obediance. He said build up your treasures in Heaven.

So you are right, you can not separate good works from salvation. It's just a part of it. That's the business that God is in. He does good things for the people on earth. So we do too. But the Treasures in Heaven is not the reward! And it is not our motivation. It's being able to hang out with my Friend and my Abba. To just walk and talk in the cool of the evening perhaps?

From all the Testimonies that I've heard it would seem that the Lord likes to show people things, and share things with them. What could be better than that?