Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Runmyramble]

I thought I said that. Works do not effect salvation, but works do affect aspects of salvation. Because everything is related.

Doing good works with no faith or love will not get anyone into heaven. Works can only mean anything after one has been born again and received salvation..



Good question. Want the textbook answer or the street answer? lol.

I have been born again, ok? And if you have ever been in the presence of the Lord, you will know that...that is our reward! Ohhh, His Name is Yeshua and to know Him and talk with Him is Life changing. It means more than just not dying in the lake of fire, it means I have a friend who is closer than my Brother.

When Jesus walks into the room (it happened to me one time. I didnt see Him but He spoke audibly), but when Jesus walks into the room, His very presence is absolute love and a power which bring ones very soul into expotentiation. I was lifted up in spirit. It felt good. I suppose I was exposed to a minute bit of the Lord's glory?

In John 14:3 it says,
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.../KJV

And 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tells us it will be forever.

17 ...to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.../

And that my Brother, is my salvation. That is the reward. The relationship with Yeshua. Scripture seems to explain as some sort of adoption process and we have been given the power to become sons of God. And scripture also speaks of an inheritance, one where we are like family and we help each other out. So becoming born again leads on right into good works. Be as we cooperate with our friend in Jesus and do what He says, it is allowing Him the ability to do His own good works through us. And we are the boots on the ground. If we go awol then it doesn;t get done. If we obey. then the world is more able to see the light of God. And scripture also referes to good works as the clothing of the roghteous or the Linen, some thing like that. And the Lord rewards Obediance. He said build up your treasures in Heaven.

So you are right, you can not separate good works from salvation. It's just a part of it. That's the business that God is in. He does good things for the people on earth. So we do too. But the Treasures in Heaven is not the reward! And it is not our motivation. It's being able to hang out with my Friend and my Abba. To just walk and talk in the cool of the evening perhaps?

From all the Testimonies that I've heard it would seem that the Lord likes to show people things, and share things with them. What could be better than that?

Beautiful!
God is simply amazing...
He loved me too...I believe His reward is his gift, Himself

 

[Runmyramble]

I thought I said that. Works do not effect salvation, but works do affect aspects of salvation. Because everything is related.

Doing good works with no faith or love will not get anyone into heaven. Works can only mean anything after one has been born again and received salvation..



Good question. Want the textbook answer or the street answer? lol.

I have been born again, ok? And if you have ever been in the presence of the Lord, you will know that...that is our reward! Ohhh, His Name is Yeshua and to know Him and talk with Him is Life changing. It means more than just not dying in the lake of fire, it means I have a friend who is closer than my Brother.

When Jesus walks into the room (it happened to me one time. I didnt see Him but He spoke audibly), but when Jesus walks into the room, His very presence is absolute love and a power which bring ones very soul into expotentiation. I was lifted up in spirit. It felt good. I suppose I was exposed to a minute bit of the Lord's glory?

In John 14:3 it says,
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.../KJV

And 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tells us it will be forever.

17 ...to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.../

And that my Brother, is my salvation. That is the reward. The relationship with Yeshua. Scripture seems to explain as some sort of adoption process and we have been given the power to become sons of God. And scripture also speaks of an inheritance, one where we are like family and we help each other out. So becoming born again leads on right into good works. Be as we cooperate with our friend in Jesus and do what He says, it is allowing Him the ability to do His own good works through us. And we are the boots on the ground. If we go awol then it doesn;t get done. If we obey. then the world is more able to see the light of God. And scripture also referes to good works as the clothing of the roghteous or the Linen, some thing like that. And the Lord rewards Obediance. He said build up your treasures in Heaven.

So you are right, you can not separate good works from salvation. It's just a part of it. That's the business that God is in. He does good things for the people on earth. So we do too. But the Treasures in Heaven is not the reward! And it is not our motivation. It's being able to hang out with my Friend and my Abba. To just walk and talk in the cool of the evening perhaps?

From all the Testimonies that I've heard it would seem that the Lord likes to show people things, and share things with them. What could be better than that?

He never spoke audibly to me...so I'm a little jealous. Unless it was his voice from that out of no where quick storm we had the other the day, I thought I heard...that said I got you....smile...or was it a dream....idk

But what did He say to you?

 

[rogerg]

Cheap grace is for those who stand by idle in the marketplace while the laborers work in the Vineyard.

I suggest you cease from calling grace "cheap"

[Heb 10:26 KJV] 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[Heb 10:38 KJV] 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

 

[D-D-W]

I laughed at this one. So true. I got a picture of a scene in the original Toy Story where those identical space toys encountered something and all simultaneously said, “ahhhhh” in great reverence and respect. That’s how we are to respond when a Greek word is dissected before us…

Not really. It should be as common as your mechanic explaining why your air filter needs to be replaced or your doctor telling you to change your diet.

Your pastor (and every other pastor as well) should be explaining every scripture from the Greek and Hebrew words in the original text; and if he/she is NOT doing that, they are falling down on their responsibilities.

 

[Edward]

He never spoke audibly to me...so I'm a little jealous. Unless it was his voice from that out of no where quick storm we had the other the day, I thought I heard...that said I got you....smile...or was it a dream....idk

But what did He say to you?

You're quick! True enough, He wasn't there there to just let me bathe myself in His glory, lol. He said to me that a certain Brother in Christ needs help and He wants me to pray for him....

And I was a total idiot and questioned God. I said why? What happened? Is he ok? Like a total idiot! One does not question God. The proper response is, Yes Lord.

And the Lord did not rebuke me! He did not strike me dumb! (PTL!). But what He did do struck terror into my soul and heart. He repeat the request, e said, He needs help right now, pray for him now...but He used a very Parental tone in saying this that all children know, when the parent takes this tone, you better obey instantly! He said nothing in words to rebuke me, but His tone changed and that was very scary for me! At which time I said, Yes Lord and I immediately went into prayer for my Brother in Christ. And the presence of the Lord went away then and left me sitting there wondering what happened to the guy to need help? I finished my prayer for him pretty quickly and now I'm like, now what? What was that all about?

Now the Brother in Christ I have never met but have met online, and he is good cookie. A Brother in Christ. So I went online to the website I know him from, and fired him off a PM and said, hey, the Lord's presence came to me and said pray for you that you needed help. What happened? Did anything happen? and all I could do then is wait for him to go online and answer.


A few hours later he got home and answered me. He said he was at his adult classes in a scholl he goes to and started having a medical emergency. He needed orange juice from the vending machine, so he got up and left the classroom and was on his way to the vending machine, and pretty much began collapsing in the hallway, and a stranger who he had never seen before was suddenly there (wearing a suit), and said I'm here to help Brother, what do you need? And he told him OJ. And the stranger went and got him some and then he was gone. And according to the time stamp on your PM Edward, that's right about when all this stuff was happening!

So this was a time sensitive issue going on. I learned a valuable lesson, the correct response is Yes Lord. And I felt honored to realize that...God doesn't need me to do anything does He? No. So God just let me participate, a nobody. I felt that deeply. Along with a little fear of would he have not got help in time if I had wasted any more time by asking questions? That was close!

And the weird thing is about it all is that, when Jesus spoke to me, I instantly recognized His voice! And I can't remember ever having heard it before, but there was no mistake. And then he let me find it in scripture, my sheep will know my voice.

I've told this testimony before and sometimes Christans will say we are instructed to test all spirits, and for all I know that what an evil spirit!
Yeah, whatever. I heard it. I recognized it. And somehow I just can't get behind the idea that evil spirits are out there telling Christians to pray for Brothers in Christ! I mena, come on you guys! Wow.

I wasn't praying or doing anything spiritual, I was checking my email, and Whoosh, the presence of the Lord entered. I knew it was Him before He even spoke. It was the most intense presence of the Lord that I havve ever felt before, or since!

I've heard a few Testimonies where people felt inclined to Test the Lord. (People who had a manifistation and could see Him!) And they ask Him, did Jesus come in the flesh, lol. IIRC, they've all said the same thing, He doesn't say anything. He smiles and shows them the nail prints which He still carries.

So Testing the Spirits is for everybody that is not Father/Son/Holy Spirit! Because you wont need to, lol.

 

[crossnote]

Hi, thanks now what does that mean...what does it look like

It looks like this…

John 15:5 NASB
[5] I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not really. It should be as common as your mechanic explaining why your air filter needs to be replaced or your doctor telling you to change your diet.

Your pastor (and every other pastor as well) should be explaining every scripture from the Greek and Hebrew words in the original text; and if he/she is NOT doing that, they are falling down on their responsibilities.

Well, those receiving the original writings didn’t always understand them because understanding doesn’t come to those who are educated in Greek or Hebrew. It was their language and they didn’t see.

I’ve heard those so educated. I don’t detect a superior understanding there. What is worse, some use their knowledge dishonestly as well, as a means to control.

You see, God hides matters from the wise and educated and reveals them to those of a certain character.

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought I said that. Works do not effect salvation, but works do affect aspects of salvation. Because everything is related.

Doing good works with no faith or love will not get anyone into heaven. Works can only mean anything after one has been born again and received salvation..



Good question. Want the textbook answer or the street answer? lol.

I have been born again, ok? And if you have ever been in the presence of the Lord, you will know that...that is our reward! Ohhh, His Name is Yeshua and to know Him and talk with Him is Life changing. It means more than just not dying in the lake of fire, it means I have a friend who is closer than my Brother.

When Jesus walks into the room (it happened to me one time. I didnt see Him but He spoke audibly), but when Jesus walks into the room, His very presence is absolute love and a power which bring ones very soul into expotentiation. I was lifted up in spirit. It felt good. I suppose I was exposed to a minute bit of the Lord's glory?

In John 14:3 it says,
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.../KJV

And 1 Thessalonians 4:17 tells us it will be forever.

17 ...to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.../

And that my Brother, is my salvation. That is the reward. The relationship with Yeshua. Scripture seems to explain as some sort of adoption process and we have been given the power to become sons of God. And scripture also speaks of an inheritance, one where we are like family and we help each other out. So becoming born again leads on right into good works. Be as we cooperate with our friend in Jesus and do what He says, it is allowing Him the ability to do His own good works through us. And we are the boots on the ground. If we go awol then it doesn;t get done. If we obey. then the world is more able to see the light of God. And scripture also referes to good works as the clothing of the roghteous or the Linen, some thing like that. And the Lord rewards Obediance. He said build up your treasures in Heaven.

So you are right, you can not separate good works from salvation. It's just a part of it. That's the business that God is in. He does good things for the people on earth. So we do too. But the Treasures in Heaven is not the reward! And it is not our motivation. It's being able to hang out with my Friend and my Abba. To just walk and talk in the cool of the evening perhaps?

From all the Testimonies that I've heard it would seem that the Lord likes to show people things, and share things with them. What could be better than that?

Great post !
:nod

 

[GodsGrace]

I suggest you cease from calling grace "cheap"

[Heb 10:26 KJV] 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[Heb 10:38 KJV] 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Walpole is not the one calling grace cheap.

Matthew 7:5

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh there is a whole world of delightful information for you to discover. Did you know that slavery was ended first in Britain (who ruled a great deal of the planet) by a christian? He worked tirelessly to make it illegal solely because of the view that each human is equally valuable. Did you know that the Red Cross was started by christians? I live in Europe and as the gospel went through the nations, Christians started schools and hospitals and orphanages and homes for the aged. The major universities in the east were started by Christians. The idea of men created equal is a christian concept pure. I could go on and on. Christians have established just governments, education for all, not just the rich, medical care, inventions to ease the drudgery of labor, many many things. Christians saw this as bringing the Kingdom of Christ to the world. God loves people. His goal isn’t that Heaven is populated. It’s positively delightful.

Do you want a real good book that’s an autobiography so not dry? “Bruchko” is excellent.

Good post Dorothy
In fact, if it were not for Christianity, we might have remained in the dark ages.

Christianity brought civility to a dark world.
Thanks for listing the different ways.

Unfortunately, this information is not properly diffused in our society.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Good post Dorothy
In fact, if it were not for Christianity, we might have remained in the dark ages.

Christianity brought civility to a dark world.
Thanks for listing the different ways.

Unfortunately, this information is not properly diffused in our society.

Yes, you’re right,

 

[Runmyramble]

Not really. It should be as common as your mechanic explaining why your air filter needs to be replaced or your doctor telling you to change your diet.

Your pastor (and every other pastor as well) should be explaining every scripture from the Greek and Hebrew words in the original text; and if he/she is NOT doing that, they are falling down on their responsibilities.

That is a very very good ideal in deed...
Greek

 

[Runmyramble]

Walpole is not the one calling grace cheap.

Matthew 7:5

Hi, ....from what I've gathered from other forums, the term "cheap grace" it is not that grace is cheap. But some say that through some doctrinal teachings such as osas that the adherents make it as though it was to them......

 

[Edward]

Hi, ....from what I've gathered from other forums, the term "cheap grace" it is not that grace is cheap. But some say that through some doctrinal teachings such as osas that the adherents make it as though it was to them......

I've heard it called, Greasy Grace before.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi, ....from what I've gathered from other forums, the term "cheap grace" it is not that grace is cheap. But some say that through some doctrinal teachings such as osas that the adherents make it as though it was to them......

Exactly.
And the terms are used by some pastors.
Easy believism is another term which means the same.

Some that believe in OSAS are humble and obedient Christian's. Some are not because they've been taught that no matter what, they are still saved. A very dangerous doctrine indeed.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Walpole]

I suggest you cease from calling grace "cheap"

[Heb 10:26 KJV] 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[Heb 10:38 KJV] 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

I call it what it is and will not cease from doing so.

Those who stand by idle in the marketplace are those who are relying on cheap grace. Only the workers can enter the Vineyard.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi, ....from what I've gathered from other forums, the term "cheap grace" it is not that grace is cheap. But some say that through some doctrinal teachings such as osas that the adherents make it as though it was to them......

It seems that way from observation. That is, grace costs them nothing in their thinking but it cost Christ everything and that’s great to them.

I call it what it is and will not cease from doing so.

Roger means it cost Jesus everything so you shouldn’t call it cheap. What Bonhoeffer meant by cheap grace is that it costs the believer nothing. The term is appropriate.

 

[Walpole]

It seems that way from observation. That is, grace costs them nothing in their thinking but it cost Christ everything and that’s great to them.

Roger means it cost Jesus everything so you shouldn’t call it cheap. What Bonhoeffer meant by cheap grace is that it costs the believer nothing. The term is appropriate.

"Cheap grace the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ." (Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship, pgs. 44-45)

Again, those standing by idle in the market place are relying on cheap grace. The Vineyard, however, is reserved for those who labor.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

"Cheap grace the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ." (Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship, pgs. 44-45)

Again, those standing by idle in the market place are relying on cheap grace. The Vineyard, however, is reserved for those who labor.

I read Bonhoeffer as a teenager. “When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.”

 

[Walpole]

I read Bonhoeffer as a teenager. “When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.”

What a beautiful truth.