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Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

rogerg said:
The Holy Spirit alone purges a trust in works from the conscience of those saved unto a trust in Christ
as Saviour. Christ's work, not ours. He alone is the Saviour

[Heb 9:14 KJV] 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

the baptism that comes only through and by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not of ourselves.

[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Click to expand...
Roger
What are dead works?
 
wondering said:
What is salvation anyway?
Click to expand...

It is what we are informed of in Romans:
[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

At a time of God's choosing, for those whom He has selected for salvation, by Christ, God positionally
takes those from under the law of sin and death and translates them to being under the law of the Spirit of life
in Christ Jesus. At the end of time for those saved, salvation is manifested to them in a final bodily sense.
Salvation encompasses both the positional and the physical.
 
wondering said:
Roger
What are dead works?
Click to expand...
Dead works (to include works of all kinds, believing included) are works of any kind that someone undertakes to achieve or add to one's salvation. Salvation is only though that which Christ has already achieved perfectly: it cannot be added to nor improved upon in any sense.
 
rogerg said:
It is what we are informed of in Romans:
[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

At a time of God's choosing, for those whom He has selected for salvation, by Christ, God positionally
takes those from under the law of sin and death and translates them to being under the law of the Spirit of life
in Christ Jesus. At the end of time for those saved, salvation is manifested to them in a final bodily sense.
Salvation encompasses both the positional and the physical.
Click to expand...
Yes, I seem to remember that you're of the reformed faith.
As you know, I can't agree with this.

I don't know what you mean by POSITIONALLY.
God DOES take us from under the law of sin and death...
 
rogerg said:
Dead works (to include works of all kinds, believing included) are works of any kind that someone undertakes to achieve or add to one's salvation. Salvation is only though that which Christ has already achieved perfectly: it cannot be added to nor improved upon in any sense.
Click to expand...
I understand dead works to be any work that is accomplished without the aid of faith in God.
For instance, someone could do a lot of good works, give away a lot of money, etc.
but if they don't believe in God it will be to no avail.

Works without faith are useless.
Faith without works is uselsess.
 
rogerg said:
Up to you, but those weren't Roger's words, they were taken directly from the Bible.
Are you disagreeing with what the Bible says?
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I agree with what the bible says.
I don't agree with what the Institutes say.
But I think we're been through this before.

Take John 3:16 for instance.
How do YOU get around that?

By saying it's DESCRIPTIVE and not PRESCRIPTIVE.
So, what to say?

I think if God were going to do the choosing, Jesus didn't have to travel around Israel for 3 years or more attempting to teach people how to get to heaven. Those that were going to heaven were going anyway, and those that were not going were not going anyway.

We could discuss this biblically, but I miss the logic in the reformed faith...
And the reason I don't care for it, is that it totally changes the nature of God.
 
wondering said:
We could discuss this biblically, but I miss the logic in the reformed faith...
And the reason I don't care for it, is that it totally changes the nature of God.
Click to expand...

Miss the logic? It's simple: that Jesus Christ alone is the Saviour, we are not.
Christ is the foundation, apex and everything in between of salvation
 
rogerg said:
Miss the logic? It's simple: that Jesus Christ alone is the Saviour, we are not.
Christ is the foundation, apex and everything in between of salvation
Click to expand...
OK
If you care to discuss this we're going to have to follow an important rule.
You'll have to post MY COMPLETE post to you and not just pick out the little part that suits your fancy.

You don't have to do this of course,
but that will end this conversation.
And I'm sure you can understand why.

For instance, who said Jesus is not the Savior?
See...you change my entire concept.
 
wondering said:
For instance, who said Jesus is not the Savior?
See...you change my entire concept.
Click to expand...

Aren't I allowed to make a point and bring forth information and clarification, or am I restricted
only to the points that you've made - I changed nothing pertaining to your post? And, by the way, what is your "entire concept"?
 
rogerg said:
Aren't I allowed to make a point and bring forth information and clarification, or am I restricted
only to the points that you've made - I changed nothing pertaining to your post? And, by the way, what is your "entire concept"?
Click to expand...
You could only reply to the part you want to reply to.
But the entire post should be visible...not only for me but for others.
This is how I treat your posts.
It's a request.
 
rogerg said:
Jesus tells us that He never "knew" them - as in they not being of those He foreknew from before the foundation of the world. In other words, their sin was that they trusted in their works for salvation, as do all those who have not been
covered by Christ's offering.

[Mat 7:23 KJV] 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Click to expand...

One who works iniquity = a practice of sin= satans will, not Jesus Fathers will. It had nothing to do with trusting in their works. That was showing, whatever you think you do for Jesus, but practice a sin, it was worth nothing to God or Jesus.
 
rogerg said:
And what in your opinion would make God not those things?
Click to expand...
This is what I stated about a god that would CHOOSE who is to be saved and who is to be a reprobate:

He is capricious, unjust, unloving and malevolent.
You worship a false God and a monstrous god.

This is what would make God NOT those things, as you've asked me:
God would be a just God.
This means that He would allow us to make a choice as to whether or not we wish to worship Him.
Calvin himself asks this question in the Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 4. He is quoting what others ask of the reformed thinking: If God CAUSES the corruption of the reprobate, why would they perish for the corruption to which God has predestined them? Calvin's answer is the mere pleasure of the divine will.

Well, if God receives PLEASURE from creating a man and predestinating him to hell,
then it is indeed an unjust God.

And an unloving God.
Instead God is a loving God.
God does not have love as an attribute...
He IS LOVE, as John tells us in
1 John 4:8b

A loving God will give to all His creatures the OPPORTUNITY to be saved.
He will lay down the rules by which a person can come to spend eternity with God.
He will not choose by some system that we do not know...like a game. Eeeny, meeny, miney, moe....
It's horrible to think that we don't even know HOW He chooses.
Except that He is God and He can do whatever He will?
Well that does not denote justice or love, does it?

And God is not a malevolent God.
He desires persons to seek and find Him.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Deuteronomy 4:29
But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

and so many more...
God tells us to SEEK HIM
and we will FIND HIM.
Seeking is our part, finding Him is our part.
Revealing Himself is His part.
 
rogerg said:
Jesus tells us that He never "knew" them - as in they not being of those He foreknew from before the foundation of the world. In other words, their sin was that they trusted in their works for salvation, as do all those who have not been
covered by Christ's offering.

[Mat 7:23 KJV] 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Click to expand...
Roger,
You have posted who Jesus did not know...

Depart from me, I never knew you, YOU WHO WORK INIQUITY.
Matthew 7:23

Jesus never knew those that sinned all their life because they never turned to Him for salvation.
If they had, they would not have worked iniquity...sinned all their life.

Jesus knows a person that is seeking salvation.
Seek and ye shall find,
knock and it shall be opened to you.

Matthew 7:24 Jesus said:
Therefore anyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man...

Anyone who HEARS THESE WORDS
and ACTS ON THEM.

Who is Jesus speaking of?
Those who hear
Those who act

WE hear
WE act
 
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