Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[PeterJens]

Doing right begins with not sinning.

Doing good begins with not doing evil.

Loving begins with not hating.

You are mistaking loving, and loving to do it.

We love in deed and in truth, even if not in desire and feeling.


Without supping with Jesus within, then that is true, and is only mind-control and power of positive thinking, which man can do for a corruptible crown, but the saints do for incorruptible in Christ.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

I do so for fellowship with Jesus in the Light, not just in some things for success' sake, but in all things for Christ's sake.

"Doing right begins with not sinning."
I have a problem with this sentence. It miss-understands what loving others means, and what sinning is.
Loving others is being concerned for their welfare, for their ability to function and do the things they need to do each day. Sinning is hurting them, taking away things that are rightfully theirs and causing them problems.

So they are mutually exclusive. What makes things more subtly different is doing nice things while harming the individuals in other ways. This is the nice social face which being something different in private, which Jesus criticized the pharisees for, teaching good things, but not doing them in practice.

We often start with believing sin is within ourselves alone, when sin arises through hurt relationships and the wrong perception of who we are and how we can work with others. I have lived most of my life not realising I felt attacked and shy, needing to defend and attack others to make my presence felt. In truth all I need to do is appreciate others and show this through helpful and enjoyable interactions. Jesus is central to realising both our worth and what our interactions are really all about. He is the vine that transforms and changes all those approaches and expectations.
And the first step is repentance, admitting we do things wrong and desiring a different approach, which is intertwinned with Jesus

God bless you

 

[rogerg]

BY THE washing of regeneration AND...

"of the Holy Ghost"

 

[rogerg]

That is the gift of the Holy Ghost God grants folks who have done the repentance and water baptism Peter commanded in Acts 2:38.
In 1 Cor 6:11 both are mentioned together..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

In 1 Cor 6:11 both are mentioned together..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

"washed in the name of the Lord Jesus and the Spirit of our God". God alone justifies and washes those He has chosen to salvation.

 

[Runmyramble]

This is one way, in my view, of what Jesus did. Correct me if you think I'm wrong.


He becomes Lord.....over all...

No longer a God just to the Jews but to those who were formerly without God in the world-on earth.

So what does that mean for me as a former Gentile?
It means I too can have access to the Father. (into his presence and access to His promises)

But How? Will it be like those who were first called- to obey the law by their natural abilities?

No, for that was proven not to work.

So How can I enter into His presence and be a benefactor?

Through a "living way"

Well why was it not a living way before?...because by being weak in the flesh(my natural abilities) it brought death-seperation from God. For the wages of sin is death.

Well so what does the scriptures say about this new and living way in Hebrews 10?
Let's see:
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

"Intering beyond the veil"- this title kept popping up in my mind.....so I better google it later.

So then the entrance into the presence of God is through Jesus's Flesh(His natural abilities)...

Ok so what does that mean for me... Well that means that I can't be the source of my Salvation and that Jesus is.....

Which Carries this passage, "the author and finisher of our faith"

And so where does that leave me...if He is the beginning and the end?

It leaves your salvation in the middle with Him....

So it is what you do with/by/through Christ that is your Salvation.

Therefore your salvation is your walk with Him.

And that defines faith for me.....It's to believe with intent on following...

So....While the devil believes according to James.....He does not believe with intent
On following God as Lord.

 

[rogerg]

So it is what you do with/by/through Christ that is your Salvation.

Christ's faith alone was/is the faith that saves ours does not. The faith of the saved is given to them only from, by, and "through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" -- see the below verse. Did those of that verse obtain faith through themselves, of themselves? No! It was Christ's righteousness which was imparted to them that gave them their faith. Only those receive it who are those chosen by God. From salvation comes our faith, our faith does not bring salvation.
Christ alone is Saviour, we are not.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

 

[PeterJens]

Christ's faith alone was/is the faith that saves ours does not. The faith of the saved is given to them only from, by, and "through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" -- see the below verse. Did those of that verse obtain faith through themselves, of themselves? No! It was Christ's righteousness which was imparted to them that gave them their faith. Only those receive it who are those chosen by God. From salvation comes our faith, our faith does not bring salvation.
Christ alone is Saviour, we are not.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

When one uses language that excludes the believers response to Jesus and their faithful walk with Him, you end either in universalism, or predestination, where the saved are those chosen by God, changed by God and without a choice.

Once you introduce the idea of choice or rejection, which is implicit in love, the believers response is a critical part of salvation. I do climbing on a climbing wall. My life is saved by the rope, but I have to climb and deal with the problems along the way to the top. Without the rope, when I fail I will fall.

Jesus's instruction we are yoked to Him and learn from Him, is learning skills and approaches that Jesus has that we need. Or the word follower, disciple, obeying Jesus's commandments are all active realities. They are the fruit of salvation, of the communion with Christ which is Heaven brought to earth. Some go so far as to say salvation is just the promise of eternity with Jesus not its living reality today. But holding to this extreme you end up justifying sinful behaviour while claiming to know Jesus.

My conclusion is Jesus is not an idealist, but knows our weaknesses and through forgiveness and grace will work alongside us. It is the transformation or perfecting Christs work in our lives that is true salvation.

Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Corinthians 7:1

8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 5:8-10

How could Jesus be made perfect? Prior to learning obedience, in some sense the writer is saying Jesus was not yet perfect, or maybe the word is proven. Here perfect is about finishing a path, and the fact of finishing shows perfection which until the path was walked there was always a question could it be done.

I know many people who claim the ability to do lots of different things, yet when they try they fail.
So in faith we can claim we know Jesus, but Peter emphasis if we do not know love we do not know God.

This poses the dilemma that it is easy to say one believes various concepts but unless it is lived out it is just show.

20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

This language of proof is about a heart change, going from darkness into the light.
God bless you

 

[rogerg]

esus went on to say why all would not be allowed-verse 22-23--They worked iniquity= practiced a sin. Yes all raised up to judgement.

Jesus tells us that He never "knew" them - as in they not being of those He foreknew from before the foundation of the world. In other words, their sin was that they trusted in their works for salvation, as do all those who have not been
covered by Christ's offering.

[Mat 7:23 KJV] 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[rogerg]

When one uses language that excludes the believers response to Jesus and their faithful walk with Him, you end either in universalism, or predestination, where the saved are those chosen by God, changed by God and without a choice.

Yes, it's God's glory, divine prerogative and good pleasure to choose those whom He has for salvation.
And none of His glory will God give to another:

[Isa 42:8 KJV] 8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

 

[Runmyramble]

When one uses language that excludes the believers response to Jesus and their faithful walk with Him, you end either in universalism, or predestination, where the saved are those chosen by God, changed by God and without a choice.

Once you introduce the idea of choice or rejection, which is implicit in love, the believers response is a critical part of salvation. I do climbing on a climbing wall. My life is saved by the rope, but I have to climb and deal with the problems along the way to the top. Without the rope, when I fail I will fall.

Jesus's instruction we are yoked to Him and learn from Him, is learning skills and approaches that Jesus has that we need. Or the word follower, disciple, obeying Jesus's commandments are all active realities. They are the fruit of salvation, of the communion with Christ which is Heaven brought to earth. Some go so far as to say salvation is just the promise of eternity with Jesus not its living reality today. But holding to this extreme you end up justifying sinful behaviour while claiming to know Jesus.

My conclusion is Jesus is not an idealist, but knows our weaknesses and through forgiveness and grace will work alongside us. It is the transformation or perfecting Christs work in our lives that is true salvation.

Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Corinthians 7:1

8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
Heb 5:8-10

How could Jesus be made perfect? Prior to learning obedience, in some sense the writer is saying Jesus was not yet perfect, or maybe the word is proven. Here perfect is about finishing a path, and the fact of finishing shows perfection which until the path was walked there was always a question could it be done.

I know many people who claim the ability to do lots of different things, yet when they try they fail.
So in faith we can claim we know Jesus, but Peter emphasis if we do not know love we do not know God.

This poses the dilemma that it is easy to say one believes various concepts but unless it is lived out it is just show.

20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Acts 26:20

This language of proof is about a heart change, going from darkness into the light.
God bless you

Hi, to add:
The issue stems from what is said to the Evangelized.

For example some may have heard...If you believe Jesus died for your sins and arose from the dead You are saved; This meaning you have heaven when you die.

So they say, "I believe" well then you are saved.

But had we really read Ephesian 2:8 in its context it tells us other things... like what the saving actually is from.

Well let's underline one specific in the context:

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So highlighted in green we can see what Gentles were saved(delivered) from..

And you can see what God's grace is....
And in verse 18...one can see that through Jesus we can have access to the father

Point is many miss out...on the fact that we can be saved(delivered)from many things.

Example, we are saved from being dead in our sins.

But does this scripture say "so we can have heaven when we die"? Even though I can show how that comes/is to be (a) part of it. Does it say it? The passage reveals the answer in Verse 22

And this show that God delivers us from being dead in sin so that through one Spirit we can be the habitation of God.

When?....when we die physically? No!
Now....while we are still on earth in our bodies....

So my next post will be on eternal life/life eternal....trying to bring it all together

Tks for letting me add some words..here

 

[Hopeful]

"of the Holy Ghost"

Two things in play there, eh?
The washing of regeneration AND the Holy Ghost.

 

[Hopeful]

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Yep, circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, and tithing won't get one to heaven.

"washed in the name of the Lord Jesus and the Spirit of our God". God alone justifies and washes those He has chosen to salvation.

I suppose Paul was alluding to Peter's command to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins there.

 

[Hopeful]

This is one way, in my view, of what Jesus did. Correct me if you think I'm wrong.


He becomes Lord.....over all...

No longer a God just to the Jews but to those who were formerly without God in the world-on earth.

So what does that mean for me as a former Gentile?
It means I too can have access to the Father. (into his presence and access to His promises)

But How? Will it be like those who were first called- to obey the law by their natural abilities?

No, for that was proven not to work.

So How can I enter into His presence and be a benefactor?

Through a "living way"

Well why was it not a living way before?...because by being weak in the flesh(my natural abilities) it brought death-seperation from God. For the wages of sin is death.

Well so what does the scriptures say about this new and living way in Hebrews 10?
Let's see:
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

"Intering beyond the veil"- this title kept popping up in my mind.....so I better google it later.

So then the entrance into the presence of God is through Jesus's Flesh(His natural abilities)...

Ok so what does that mean for me... Well that means that I can't be the source of my Salvation and that Jesus is.....

Which Carries this passage, "the author and finisher of our faith"

And so where does that leave me...if He is the beginning and the end?

It leaves your salvation in the middle with Him....

So it is what you do with/by/through Christ that is your Salvation.

Therefore your salvation is your walk with Him.

And that defines faith for me.....It's to believe with intent on following...

So....While the devil believes according to James.....He does not believe with intent
On following God as Lord.

Those who won't follow, don't obey, don't believe.

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus tells us that He never "knew" them - as in they not being of those He foreknew from before the foundation of the world. In other words, their sin was that they trusted in their works for salvation, as do all those who have not been
covered by Christ's offering.

[Mat 7:23 KJV] 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They're sin was... sin.
Men don't serve God with rejection and serving the devil.

 

[rogerg]

Two things in play there, eh?
The washing of regeneration AND the Holy Ghost.

HE SAVED US BY.....

 

[Hopeful]

HE SAVED US BY.....

Amen.
Nobody else threw us a life ring.
I am certainly glad He gave me "arms" to grab it.

 

[rogerg]

Amen.
Nobody else threw us a life ring.
I am certainly glad He gave me "arms" to grab it.

Don't think so. It says that HE SAVED US. Nothing besides that needed or possible beyond that. If someone is saved, they're saved. Period.

 

[Hopeful]

Don't think so. It says that HE SAVED US. Nothing besides that needed or possible beyond that. If someone is saved, they're saved. Period.

Agreed, and I sure hope my final judgement goes without fear.
Then I will say "I am saved"!!!
For now, I will continue to manifest both the life and death of Jesus Christ on earth.

 

[rogerg]

Agreed, and I sure hope my final judgement goes without fear.
Then I will say "I am saved"!!!
For now, I will continue to manifest both the life and death of Jesus Christ on earth.

Er, uhm - okay

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't think so. It says that HE SAVED US. Nothing besides that needed or possible beyond that. If someone is saved, they're saved. Period.

Nothing besides salvation is needed?
What is salvation anyway?

Are we supposed to obey God?
Can we continue to sin, at will?

PS
Of course God saved us...
who/what else is supposed to save us?

 

[rogerg]

suppose Paul was alluding to Peter's command to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins there.

The Holy Spirit alone purges a trust in works from the conscience of those saved unto a trust in Christ
as Saviour. Christ's work, not ours. He alone is the Saviour

[Heb 9:14 KJV] 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

the baptism that comes only through and by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, not of ourselves.

[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: