Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Peterlag]

How many natures they have?

The churches teach there's two. Paul taught there's one.

 

[Runmyramble]

The churches teach there's two. Paul taught there's one.

What is it

 

[Peterlag]

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Many Christian groups teach we are still sinners by nature, and that it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that we battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? We are often taught we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it?

 

[Runmyramble]

That's a hard one to understand..

But I see where you are going

It's hard because of the word "nature" itself.

I can't actually see my heart, will,conscience, emotional pain...they can be expressed.

Even though I would not know how to explain what Happen after the fall.

Man had a choice to choose
But What?
To choose God's word-do not eat...etc

Or the outcome was "you should surely die"

Death then is still part of the natural man unless He chooses to live by the word-spirit of God.

But Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. And we too can destroy the works of the devil if by the Spirit we put away the deeds of the flesh.

For it's life that destroys death.

So in my opinion we have a choice?
Blessings and cursing are set before us...

We can consciencely choose to live by the flesh or the Spirit.
Which then are 2 nature's in mt opinion.

The only thing is we Do not have to be in bondage anymore to the old nature....
Because we have the key (Spirit) to leave death (old nature) behind.

It seems it is our flesh out of order that is the old nature.

Another words we chose to live by Satan's words who seems to put the desires of the flesh before the Spirit (obedience to God) Which seemed to cause separation from God (death)
But Now given the Spirit of Christ...we have a choice to live again.

So we can obey Christ our new nature...or our own Desires or depend on our own natural abilities-what we can do on our own.

Fact is Jesus Told the woman..

SIN NOT...

 

[Peterlag]

That's a hard one to understand..

But I see where you are going

It's hard because of the word "nature" itself.

I can't actually see my heart, will,conscience, emotional pain...they can be expressed.

Even though I would not know how to explain what Happen after the fall.

Man had a choice to choose
But What?
To choose God's word-do not eat...etc

Or the outcome was "you should surely die"

Death then is still part of the natural man unless He chooses to live by the word-spirit of God.

But Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. And we too can destroy the works of the devil if by the Spirit we put away the deeds of the flesh.

For it's life that destroys death.

So in my opinion we have a choice?
Blessings and cursing are set before us...

We can consciencely choose to live by the flesh or the Spirit.
Which then are 2 nature's in mt opinion.

The only thing is we Do not have to be in bondage anymore to the old nature....
Because we have the key (Spirit) to leave death (old nature) behind.

It seems it is our flesh out of order that is the old nature.

Another words we chose to live by Satan's words who seems to put the desires of the flesh before the Spirit (obedience to God) Which seemed to cause separation from God (death)
But Now given the Spirit of Christ...we have a choice to live again.

So we can obey Christ our new nature...or our own Desires or depend on our own natural abilities-what we can do on our own.

Fact is Jesus Told the woman..

SIN NOT...

You have a lot in that last post. Most I understand and some I don't know what you mean. Example would be what Jesus told the woman. That has nothing to do with the Christian or sin nature because Christ had not yet made the new nature available to anyone at the time he spoke to that woman.

 

[Runmyramble]

You have a lot in that last post. Most I understand and some I don't know what you mean. Example would be what Jesus told the woman. That has nothing to do with the Christian or sin nature because Christ had not yet made the new nature available to anyone at the time he spoke to that woman.

Jesus is the living word regardless if He told the woman "go sin no more" before or after He died. For if she obeyed Jesus, She also obeyed God. And God is Spirit.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus is the living word regardless if He told the woman "go sin no more" before or after He died. For if she obeyed Jesus, She also obeyed God. And God is Spirit.

So you don't believe in different time periods in the Bible? No different administrations?

 

[Runmyramble]

So you don't believe in different time periods in the Bible? No different administrations?

Hi, not sure what you are getting at.
Also please clarify what you mean by administrations...

 

[Runmyramble]

So you don't believe in different time periods in the Bible? No different administrations?

So you don't believe in different time periods in the Bible? No different administrations?

You have a lot in that last post. Most I understand and some I don't know what you mean. Example would be what Jesus told the woman. That has nothing to do with the Christian or sin nature because Christ had not yet made the new nature available to anyone at the time he spoke to that woman.

Study 3 THE TWO-FOLD NATURE OF EVERY BELIEVER - Words of Life Ministries

Study 3 THE TWO-FOLD NATURE OF EVERY BELIEVER - Words of Life Ministries

Things Hard to be Understood by Francis Dixon (Scripture Portion: Romans 7: 15-25) In our last study we saw the importance of being able to distinguish between our standing and our state, but now we...

www.wordsoflife.co.uk

 

[Runmyramble]

So you don't believe in different time periods in the Bible? No different administrations?

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

 

[Peterlag]

Hi, not sure what you are getting at.
Also please clarify what you mean by administrations...

I do not know why we have so many Christians who believe the entire Bible is written directly to them, the Church of God. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate such thinking, and I would like to add nothing could be further from the truth. It's true the Word of God was written for everyone for all time, and it's for our learning because it contains what everyone should know. That does not mean every part of it is addressed to everyone in this time, because the subject matter was written either to the Jews, to the Gentiles, or to the Church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32).

To rightly understand the Word of God, one must understand what part is written to the Church of God and what part is written for the learning of the Church. Every word from Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, is written for our learning. However, not all of the words from Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, are addressed to us. We must learn to distinguish not only the various people, but also the different time periods God has spoken to if we want to understand the written Word of God. The time God spoke to the children of Israel is not the same time period He has spoken to us. The time He spoke to the prophets in the time of the Old Testament is not the same time period He spoke to His Son Jesus Christ in the time of the gospels.

The different time periods in the Bible are called dispensations. The Greek word for “dispensation” is “oikonomia” meaning the act of administering. The word “o’kos” means house, and “nemo” means to dispense, to weigh or deal out, as a steward or housekeeper. Therefore, the word was used to manage or administrate a household. The word is used three times in Luke 16:2-4, where it's translated “stewardship.” In four other places it's translated “dispensation.” I like the word administration because it communicates very well with our current English language. We must understand these administrations have different time periods in the Bible and each have their own beginning and their own ending—with the exception of the last one.

 

[Runmyramble]

I do not know why we have so many Christians who believe the entire Bible is written directly to them, the Church of God. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate such thinking, and I would like to add nothing could be further from the truth. It's true the Word of God was written for everyone for all time, and it's for our learning because it contains what everyone should know. That does not mean every part of it is addressed to everyone in this time, because the subject matter was written either to the Jews, to the Gentiles, or to the Church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32).

To rightly understand the Word of God, one must understand what part is written to the Church of God and what part is written for the learning of the Church. Every word from Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, is written for our learning. However, not all of the words from Genesis 1:1, to Revelation 22:21, are addressed to us. We must learn to distinguish not only the various people, but also the different time periods God has spoken to if we want to understand the written Word of God. The time God spoke to the children of Israel is not the same time period He has spoken to us. The time He spoke to the prophets in the time of the Old Testament is not the same time period He spoke to His Son Jesus Christ in the time of the gospels.

The different time periods in the Bible are called dispensations. The Greek word for “dispensation” is “oikonomia” meaning the act of administering. The word “o’kos” means house, and “nemo” means to dispense, to weigh or deal out, as a steward or housekeeper. Therefore, the word was used to manage or administrate a household. The word is used three times in Luke 16:2-4, where it's translated “stewardship.” In four other places it's translated “dispensation.” I like the word administration because it communicates very well with our current English language. We must understand these administrations have different time periods in the Bible and each have their own beginning and their own ending—with the exception of the last one.

Tks 4. Clarifying...not sure of what u r addressing

 

[PeterJens]

The churches teach there's two. Paul taught there's one.

This is very much a debated question.
Paul appears to describe the conflict between the desire to do that which is good and the practice in life which does what one would not hope for.

The desire for worldly things, the sinful nature does not ever leave us. I would suggest in a sense this desire is innate in being a living being with free will. Our bodies take our will captive by creating feelings which drive behaviour. We need sleep, food, exercise, air, water, good relationships, safety, love. People argue that these desires just appear, but if you think about it, they are all essential to life. Hunger gives us a measure of our food intake, lack of strength or muscles needing a stretch encourages us to move around, breathing is always present, but coughing clears our airways, thirst makes sure we have enough water, being upset are what is said helps us maintain good relationships, not having fear and being in a non threatening environment means life is likely to continue, giving love helps us be part of group where the group is stronger than the individuals who are part of it.

Jesus was tempted with testing bodily protection, getting power over groups of people by acknowledging worldly authority, letting hunger dominate behaviour over the will of God.

Jesus gets us to redirect our desires and focus in a healthy direction, with boundaries and balance which is true freedom.

Paul describes sowing to the flesh, ie concentrating on the worldly aspects of life or sowing to the spirit, which feeds the soul and brings about eternal life.

Gnostic or schizophrenic view of the flesh being evil and the spirit being good, splits conscious responsibility for sin on the flesh, while eternal reality is the desire within for things of the eternal or heaven. The difficulty with this model is the world is saved, because every sinner plays the victim card. I was so damaged I could not help it. I know this same argument, especially about wives pushing you into the arms of another.

The lie of this view is change and freedom in following Christ will never come or has any value. I talked with believers who held this view, and for them being in Christ was just knowing He was perfect and ourselves lost. Staying sinful and bound to our behaviour patterns was just what all humans are. They have literally lost all hope of transformation or life and love in the heart, so unfortunately they do not know Jesus. Jesus calls us His ambassadors on earth, living His way among the lost of the world, showing love where there is none, caring and sharing while others are greedy and abusive. Light in the darkness is good deeds shown before man.

In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
Matt 5:16

This is not clenched teeth good deeds, helping the evil, putrid, despicable while tryings ones best to not be upset or showing the hidden anger. It is literally loving people in the situation they are in and knowing how God can deliver them with a light in the heart. Unfortunately unbelievers trying to do good works with the words of Jesus are not reflecting love flowing from the heart but pushing a belief system while not knowing its reality.

God bless you

 

[Peterlag]

Tks 4. Clarifying...not sure of what u r addressing

What I'm addressing is what Jesus told the woman may not apply to what Paul is telling the Christian in this administration.

 

[Runmyramble]

What I'm addressing is what Jesus told the woman may not apply to what Paul is telling the Christian in this administration.

To go and sin no more...

 

[rogerg]

I do not know why we have so many Christians who believe the entire Bible is written directly to them, the Church of God.

They do because it was. There is but one gospel of salvation and one Saviour Jesus Christ. The Bible in its entirety and completeness is the sole and exclusive expression of that gospel. Regardless of who was or was not being addressed at any point in it, God caused and used that as an object lesson for our edification and in some manner was intended as a demonstration of, and reflection of, the gospel. The gospel makes no provision for applicability of certain groups to respective aspects of it that would necessitate unique interpretation or understanding of background. The only applicable rules are those the Bible specifically and directly sets-forth for itself: the Bible should only be interpreted against itself.
Salvation and judgment alone are the reason of/for the Bible.

[Heb 10:7 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

[Col 3:10-11 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

[Gal 3:28 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

[2Co 11:3 KJV] 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[2Co 2:15-17 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

To go and sin no more...

Whatever he told anyone at that time was addressed to Israel and not the body of Christ because the Body of Christ had not yet been born.

 

[Peterlag]

They do because it was. There is but one gospel of salvation and one Saviour Jesus Christ. The Bible in its entirety and completeness is the sole and exclusive expression of that gospel. Regardless of who was or was not being addressed at any point in it, God caused and used that as an object lesson for our edification and in some manner was intended as a demonstration of, and reflection of, the gospel. The gospel makes no provision for applicability of certain groups to respective aspects of it that would necessitate unique interpretation or understanding of background. The only applicable rules are those the Bible specifically and directly sets-forth for itself: the Bible should only be interpreted against itself.
Salvation and judgment alone are the reason of/for the Bible.

[Heb 10:7 KJV]
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

[Col 3:10-11 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

[Gal 3:28 KJV]
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

[2Co 11:3 KJV] 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[2Co 2:15-17 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

These different administrations are suited to different times because God has spoken everything to its proper time and administration. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we read into one administration what God tells us belongs to another administration. If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

 

[rogerg]

These different administrations are suited to different times because God has spoken everything to its proper time and administration. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we read into one administration what God tells us belongs to another administration. If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

Thank you very much, Peterlag I appreciate your reply and thoughtfulness, but I believe that Christ is the singular, overriding, dominating principle of the Bible and singularly the truth of God's word - there is no other principle in it not based in some manner upon Him -- either to salvation or to judgement. Therefore, if we have been blessed to be able to perceive Christ as God and Saviour, we then also know the essence of the Bible and its gospel message because God wrote the Bible to represent and illuminate Christ - everything intersects in Him -- He alone is its foundation and apex -- there is nothing else.

[2Co 11:3 KJV] 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[Jhn 5:39 KJV] 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

[Psa 40:7 KJV] 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,

[2Co 1:20 KJV] 20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV] 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[rogerg]

These different administrations are suited to different times because God has spoken everything to its proper time and administration. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we read into one administration what God tells us belongs to another administration. If we believe what God said in one administration and carry it into another administration that was on a different principle, we will be taking what is true for one time, and using it to contradict what is also true for another time. When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

In case it wasn't obvious from my last post, I should have summarized it by saying that Christ alone is the sole unifying factor for the entire Bible