Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[rogerg]

One who works iniquity = a practice of sin= satans will, not Jesus Fathers will. It had nothing to do with trusting in their works. That was showing, whatever you think you do for Jesus, but practice a sin, it was worth nothing to God or Jesus.

Their trusting in their works for salvation, instead of in Christ's works for salvation, is the foundation of Satan's will and itself is the sin. Everyone born was born into that sin until becoming saved (if they become saved) - it is the condition of natural man. When saved they will come to trust solely in Christ's offering and not in their works.
For those saved, God has forgiven, to the uttermost all of (their) sin in the name of Christ.

 

[rogerg]

This is what I stated about a god that would CHOOSE who is to be saved and who is to be a reprobate:

He is capricious, unjust, unloving and malevolent.
You worship a false God and a monstrous god.

This is what would make God NOT those things, as you've asked me:
God would be a just God.
This means that He would allow us to make a choice as to whether or not we wish to worship Him.
Calvin himself asks this question in the Institutes, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 4. He is quoting what others ask of the reformed thinking: If God CAUSES the corruption of the reprobate, why would they perish for the corruption to which God has predestined them? Calvin's answer is the mere pleasure of the divine will.

Well, if God receives PLEASURE from creating a man and predestinating him to hell,
then it is indeed an unjust God.

And an unloving God.
Instead God is a loving God.
God does not have love as an attribute...
He IS LOVE, as John tells us in
1 John 4:8b

A loving God will give to all His creatures the OPPORTUNITY to be saved.
He will lay down the rules by which a person can come to spend eternity with God.
He will not choose by some system that we do not know...like a game. Eeeny, meeny, miney, moe....
It's horrible to think that we don't even know HOW He chooses.
Except that He is God and He can do whatever He will?
Well that does not denote justice or love, does it?

And God is not a malevolent God.
He desires persons to seek and find Him.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Deuteronomy 4:29
But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

and so many more...
God tells us to SEEK HIM
and we will FIND HIM.
Seeking is our part, finding Him is our part.
Revealing Himself is His part.

If you are going to insult the God of the Bible in that manner, I am not going to dialogue with you any further.

 

[keiw1]

Their trusting in their works for salvation, instead of in Christ's works for salvation, is the foundation of Satan's will and itself is the sin. Everyone born was born into that sin until becoming saved (if they become saved) - it is the condition of natural man. When saved they will come to trust solely in Christ's offering and not in their works.
For those saved, God has forgiven, to the uttermost all of (their) sin in the name of Christ.

Jesus teaches--Those that endure until their end-WILL be saved Matt 24:13---That doesnt sound like one is in a saved position yet. They could be , but must endure until their end to actually be saved. Endure living now in this satan ruled system, living to do Jesus Fathers will over their own will-Matt 7:21.
Only repented sin will be forgiven-Acts 3:19, It says repent and turn around- stopping the doing of a sin. Not just asking forgiveness.
I sincerely believe its only blind guides=these-2Cor 11:12-15) who assure others they are saved. For 1 he has never seen a single name written in Gods book of life, 2-Has no clue who will endure until their end, 3- Cannot read anothers true heart.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus teaches--Those that endure until their end-WILL be saved Matt 24:13---That doesnt sound like one is in a saved position yet. They could be , but must endure until their end to actually be saved. Endure living now in this satan ruled system, living to do Jesus Fathers will over their own will-Matt 7:21.
Only repented sin will be forgiven-Acts 3:19, It says repent and turn around- stopping the doing of a sin. Not just asking forgiveness.

Salvation has two parts:1) positionally which occurs during one's life; 2) the receiving of one's new perfect body and
not suffering God's judgment at the end of the world: the refreshing.
Sinning and repenting in this life, is in turning from our works for salvation unto trusting in Christ's works.
This repentance is also a gift from God:

Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

[GodsGrace]

If you are going to insult the God of the Bible in that manner, I am not going to dialogue with you any further.

I said that and you replied.
Now, instead, you decide it's insulting to God that I repeated what YOU think of Him.

This is beyond sad...
Or
You can't reply to my post.
Easy way out.

I believe God is not too happy about how you represent Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus teaches--Those that endure until their end-WILL be saved Matt 24:13---That doesnt sound like one is in a saved position yet. They could be , but must endure until their end to actually be saved. Endure living now in this satan ruled system, living to do Jesus Fathers will over their own will-Matt 7:21.
Only repented sin will be forgiven-Acts 3:19, It says repent and turn around- stopping the doing of a sin. Not just asking forgiveness.
I sincerely believe its only blind guides=these-2Cor 11:12-15) who assure others they are saved. For 1 he has never seen a single name written in Gods book of life, 2-Has no clue who will endure until their end, 3- Cannot read anothers true heart.

What an odd idea...
That a believer that works is actually sinning and not doing God's will.

The other poster is not the only one to state this.
I wonder where this idea comes from? Perhaps the enemy.

 

[keiw1]

What an odd idea...
That a believer that works is actually sinning and not doing God's will.

The other poster is not the only one to state this.
I wonder where this idea comes from? Perhaps the enemy.

Many who believe, believe in the wrong Jesus and are being mislead.

 

[Hopeful]

[1Pe 3:21 KJV] 21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Do you see how "the resurrection of Christ" intersects with baptism?
Paul did, and wrote of it in Rom 6:3-5..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
That 1 Peter 3:21 verse is the one that convinced me to become a real Christian.
I got water baptized the same night I heard it, and was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
That "newness of life" doesn't happen without baptism.
No death and burial: no resurrection.

 

[Hopeful]

Some people just reject what they believe..

Is it truly belief then?

 

[rogerg]

That "newness of life" doesn't happen without baptism.
No death and burial: no resurrection.

Spiritual, not physical baptism. Physical baptism is a ritual/symbol just as circumcision is with neither having
any spiritual efficacy of themselves. Spiritual baptism into Christ of the Holy Spirit is the only one with spiritual power.

 

[GodsGrace]

Spiritual, not physical baptism. Physical baptism is a ritual/symbol just as circumcision is with neither having
any spiritual efficacy of themselves. Spiritual baptism into Christ of the Holy Spirit is the only one with spiritual power.

How is a person baptized into Christ of the Holy Spirit?

 

[rogerg]

How is a person baptized into Christ of the Holy Spirit?

It is through the Holy Spirit and central to salvation: it is the work of God.

 

[PeterJens]

Hi, to add:
The issue stems from what is said to the Evangelized.

For example some may have heard...If you believe Jesus died for your sins and arose from the dead You are saved; This meaning you have heaven when you die.

So they say, "I believe" well then you are saved.

But had we really read Ephesian 2:8 in its context it tells us other things... like what the saving actually is from.

Well let's underline one specific in the context:

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So highlighted in green we can see what Gentles were saved(delivered) from..

And you can see what God's grace is....
And in verse 18...one can see that through Jesus we can have access to the father

Point is many miss out...on the fact that we can be saved(delivered)from many things.

Example, we are saved from being dead in our sins.

But does this scripture say "so we can have heaven when we die"? Even though I can show how that comes/is to be (a) part of it. Does it say it? The passage reveals the answer in Verse 22

And this show that God delivers us from being dead in sin so that through one Spirit we can be the habitation of God.

When?....when we die physically? No!
Now....while we are still on earth in our bodies....

So my next post will be on eternal life/life eternal....trying to bring it all together

Tks for letting me add some words..here

I agree the phrase you say "Jesus is Lord" and you are saved sounds very superficial. In one sense all actors are therefore saved when playing a believer.

For me the language is confusing because of what it is attempting to do. Paul says some are saved and then lose their salvation, walk away, that believers can sow to the flesh and reap death, so are not in the Kingdom.

To counter this question of doubt, especially for the anxious, they reassure believers by saying when your heart is with God, you say "Jesus is Lord" as a testimony to what is within, so showing you are saved. Some could read the language to mean by saying "Jesus is Lord" saves you, which is not true, but saying Jesus is Lord to the Lord is exercising faith, entering into salvation and the grace through the gospel which brings life.

I feel like this is all about perception and depth. The words can be the same, for one just an idea for another the beginning of eternity.

 

[Peterlag]

The mystery of being saved by faith and justified by works is resolved by knowing the difference between being born to do good works, and becoming natural at doing good works, to become born again.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The answer is how and where does God's righteousness come to man, that he may be justified by Christ.

In Scripture, God's righteousness comes by the faith of Jesus, and it comes into the heart first by birth of the Spirit: we are born again unto good works, not born again by doing good works, until it becomes natural to do so.

We do not 'discover' we are born again, when we learn we are doing good things naturally: we know we are born again by faith, and understand we have His power to do good at all times:

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

We don't seek to change our wicked ways by force of will, until we begin to do so naturally, so as to become as newborn creatures.

We become born again and sons of God by believing Jesus, knowing that the whole world lies in wickedness, and we are no more of that world, having no more fellowship with it.

With natural man, faith does not change the works, but only works can change the faith.

The reformation of Jesus Christ on earth is to undo the natural man's carnal understanding that to change ourselves, we must first change our works.

To the natural mind, all change is made by power of will, not by faith. The natural man's faith is in himself, and that faith of himself only transforms, as he sees himself changing by his works: We become better, because we do better, and we become as newborn, only when we become natural at doing better.

Any man, by power of will, can change his works in life, so that it becomes natural to do so: he is not born to do them, but willfully changes them, until it becomes so natural to him as it were by birth.

This is the error of them that were Jews by nature, who sought the righteousness of God to come to themselves, by doing righteousness as it were by law, and not by faith.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Neither the law nor the works of the law are the enemies of salvation by new birth, even as the letter of the law is not dead, except it be without the Spirit: being done not by faith but by will.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The doctrine of Christ against being saved by works, is not against works of the law, but is only against becoming new born by will of man to keep the law, until it becomes natural to do so, as by nature, not by birth.

Even as the first and second great commandments, God is a God of first things first: first be born again by the faith of Jesus to love Him with all the heart, second to love our neighbors as ourselves from the heart.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

The problem with this walk is that most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

 

[RBDERRICK]

"Doing right begins with not sinning."
I have a problem with this sentence. It miss-understands what loving others means, and what sinning is.


God bless you

This is more human reasoning, than doctrine of Christ in Scripture:

All unrighteousness is sin.

Until the sinning stops, neither does the unrighteousness. No man is counted righteous and justified by Christ, while still doing unrighteousness.

When the sinning stops, the righteousness begins, which is why He comes to take away our sinning, that we may begin doing His righteousness.

Loving others is being concerned for their welfare, for their ability to function and do the things they need to do each day. Sinning is hurting them, taking away things that are rightfully theirs and causing them problems.


God bless you

Loving others begins with loving God, which does not begin, until we are not sinning against God, which is hate and enmity against God.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Sinning is hurting ourselves by killing our own souls. So long as we are sinning, we are dead and separated from God, and neither loving Him nor man.

We can still do neighborly things for others, that they do appreciate, but it does nothing to justify us with Christ. If we are still sinning against Him, then all our good works are counted as filthy rags by Him.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

This is the nice social face which being something different in private, which Jesus criticized the pharisees for, teaching good things, but not doing them in practice.


God bless you

What Jesus rebukes all Pharisees for is doing His law by the letter only, while still being unclean inwardly:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

This is how no man is justified by the law outwardly, but only by doing His law first with His righteous and clean Spirit of grace.

We often start with believing sin is within ourselves alone, when sin arises through hurt relationships and the wrong perception of who we are and how we can work with others.

God bless you

All sin begins with unrighteous thoughts of our own recieved as lust in the heart.

No others, including the devil, are to be blamed for it. We each stand alone before God to be judged.

In truth all I need to do is appreciate others and show this through helpful and enjoyable interactions.

God bless you

I don't appreciate anyone trying to knife me, nor my wife.

Jesus is central to realising both our worth and what our interactions are really all about. He is the vine that transforms and changes all those approaches and expectations.


God bless you

I don't care about my relationship with anyone else, unless I first care about my relationship with Jesus. The only reason I do love my neighbor, is now because I first love Him.

Salvation and justification by Christ is to become righteous and holy sons of God, not just neighborly sinners.

I'm not saying you preach just being neighborly sinners, but there are them that do so, such as those with nice-facetime, while lusting for sin in the heart.

 

[PeterJens]

This is more human reasoning, than doctrine of Christ in Scripture:

All unrighteousness is sin.

Until the sinning stops, neither does the unrighteousness. No man is counted righteous and justified by Christ, while still doing unrighteousness.

When the sinning stops, the righteousness begins, which is why He comes to take away our sinning, that we may begin doing His righteousness.


Loving others begins with loving God, which does not begin, until we are not sinning against God, which is hate and enmity against God.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Sinning is hurting ourselves by killing our own souls. So long as we are sinning, we are dead and separated from God, and neither loving Him nor man.

We can still do neighborly things for others, that they do appreciate, but it does nothing to justify us with Christ. If we are still sinning against Him, then all our good works are counted as filthy rags by Him.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.



What Jesus rebukes all Pharisees for is doing His law by the letter only, while still being unclean inwardly:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

This is how no man is justified by the law outwardly, but only by doing His law first with His righteous and clean Spirit of grace.




All sin begins with unrighteous thoughts of our own recieved as lust in the heart.

No others, including the devil, are to be blamed for it. We each stand alone before God to be judged.



I don't appreciate anyone trying to knife me, nor my wife.



I don't care about my relationship with anyone else, unless I first care about my relationship with Jesus. The only reason I do love my neighbor, is now because I first love Him.

Salvation and justification by Christ is to become righteous and holy sons of God, not just neighborly sinners.

I'm not saying you preach just being neighborly sinners, but there are them that do so, such as those with nice-facetime, while lusting for sin in the heart.

All unrighteousness is sin.

This is a very theological statement. What is righteous is and what is not is not clear in a definitive sense.
"Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God."
Genesis 6:9

The term righteous is often applied to people and their status before the Lord.
Now the opposite of the righteous are sinners, or those not redeemed.

The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."
Acts 10:22

Cornelius was not redeemed through Christ, yet messengers called him righteous.
Now I therefore have a problem in understanding what is unrighteousness?
Breaking the commandments is sin, that leads to death.
I would agree that breaking the commandments is sin. That is the basis of Gods revelation to man about His nature and the problem God has come to solve through Israel of which Jesus is the Cornerstone.

Is this what you are referring to?

 

[PeterJens]

"Until the sinning stops, neither does the unrighteousness. No man is counted righteous and justified by Christ, while still doing unrighteousness."

This is slightly confusing to me. The block between man and God is the lack of seeing sinful acts as sinful and destructive and the need to repent and change. The point of salvation is repentance not perfection, because if perfection was the case Paul was never saved.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Phil 3:12

The whole story of the temple and sacrifices in the temple is that perfection is not Gods requirement to approach Him but repentance and the desire to change. He will deliver the fruits of change to a heart that desires this righteousness as Jesus puts it

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matt 5:6

We are Gods workmanship not our own. We are as Paul describes slaves to righteousness, our hearts cry out to us to walk this path, to know the light and dwell in it. We are not afraid of the emotions of the heart because the heart sings praises to Christ for the cross, bows the knee in wonder at this infinite love that would bow down and call us friends.

 

[jaybo]

"Until the sinning stops, neither does the unrighteousness. No man is counted righteous and justified by Christ, while still doing unrighteousness."

This is slightly confusing to me. The block between man and God is the lack of seeing sinful acts as sinful and destructive and the need to repent and change. The point of salvation is repentance not perfection, because if perfection was the case Paul was never saved.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Phil 3:12

The whole story of the temple and sacrifices in the temple is that perfection is not Gods requirement to approach Him but repentance and the desire to change. He will deliver the fruits of change to a heart that desires this righteousness as Jesus puts it

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matt 5:6

We are Gods workmanship not our own. We are as Paul describes slaves to righteousness, our hearts cry out to us to walk this path, to know the light and dwell in it. We are not afraid of the emotions of the heart because the heart sings praises to Christ for the cross, bows the knee in wonder at this infinite love that would bow down and call us friends.

Great post!

 

[rogerg]

"Until the sinning stops, neither does the unrighteousness. No man is counted righteous and justified by Christ, while still doing unrighteousness."

This is slightly confusing to me. The block between man and God is the lack of seeing sinful acts as sinful and destructive and the need to repent and change. The point of salvation is repentance not perfection, because if perfection was the case Paul was never saved.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Phil 3:12

The whole story of the temple and sacrifices in the temple is that perfection is not Gods requirement to approach Him but repentance and the desire to change. He will deliver the fruits of change to a heart that desires this righteousness as Jesus puts it

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matt 5:6

We are Gods workmanship not our own. We are as Paul describes slaves to righteousness, our hearts cry out to us to walk this path, to know the light and dwell in it. We are not afraid of the emotions of the heart because the heart sings praises to Christ for the cross, bows the knee in wonder at this infinite love that would bow down and call us friends.

[Heb 7:11-12, 18-19, 22, 25, 27-28 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. ...
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. ...
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. ...
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, [maketh] the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

 

[Runmyramble]

The problem with this walk is that most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

How many natures they have?