Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[RBDERRICK]

I think I did but I guess you weren't reading...

1 John 1:8 (KJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 (KJV) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

As I said, if you want to condemn preaching doing righteousness at all times, as saying we have no sin, then that's a false accusation, not a correction.

Until, you quote the teaching at any place and show how it is false, then I can respond. Otherwise, I'll be moving on.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Well, if that is true, then by confessing and repenting, we in effect save ourselves.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. (Acts 2)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Phillip 2)

To "do" is to make it a work. We cannot be saved by our works. Instead, WE MUST BE saved and not try to save ourselves.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (James 2)

There is no salvation of Christ without justification by Christ.

God did/does everything necessary for salvation. That is why He has the title of Saviour, otherwise, He couldn't
rightfully have it. Again, that which we are commanded to do, we do because we have been saved, not to become saved.

Jesus died on the cross to make the way to the Father open to any that believe and obey Him.

The rest is up to us by His grace and faith: grace is our fellow helper to purify and do well, not our personal slave to cover up all are sinning around the house.

Being saved before and apart from obeying Him, is just as false as believing before and apart from obeying Him: with man, we can believe without doing, not with God.

Before we are obeying Him, we are still disobeying Him: wrath is still upon the children of disobedience, not salvation nor justification of God.

Those lusting within are not cleansed, saved, nor justified. Their outward sinning is only the symptom of the filthy sickness within.

Jesus doesn't sup with the devil in the unpurified hearts of sinners.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. (Matthew 5)

 

[RBDERRICK]

This seems the heart of your error.

Jesus says differently...

John 15:5 (NASB) "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Looking up the definition of 'nothing' may be enlightening.


Both:
Sinner, when comparing my righteousness with the righteousness of Christ.
Saint, because I am set apart and clothed in Christ's righteousness.

I was speaking of man's ability as a created spiritual being to change his own ways to his own like, I was not speaking of the power of God with His Spirit to change our ways to God's liking.

Both:
Sinner, when comparing my righteousness with the righteousness of Christ.
Saint, because I am set apart and clothed in Christ's righteousness.

Your error is still having your own righteousness, and not God's: being righteous by your own standard, not doing and being righteous as He is.

I don't compare my righteousness with His, because I no longer have any righteousness nor life of my own: He is now my righteousness, by taking up my cross as He did and commands us.

I now know Him and do His will: if I am doing my own will against His faith and word, then I no longer am knowing Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Both:
Sinner, when comparing my righteousness with the righteousness of Christ.
Saint, because I am set apart and clothed in Christ's righteousness.

The dual nature theology of being 'righteous' somewhere in the heavenlies, while being unrighteous in the flesh, is false and spiritually delusional.

We are what we do, not what we like to think God sees us as.

Imputed righteousness by faith is simply the desire for God's will that He puts in the mind of man, but until we do the truth, it is hearing and desiring only.

Romans 7 is empathy with the wretched double minded, who now know the will of God, but don't do it. The Chapter is not a confirmation of Christian living in this world, but rather an exhortation to be delivered from it.

Romans 8 is them that repent and purify their hearts to cleanse their hands and become doers of the word, and not to hear and desire only:

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. (James 4)

Scripture rebukes the lie that we are seen and counted by God as something other than what we are doing:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3)

 

[rogerg]

Part 1 (due to size limitation)

The reason I asked for your confession is because I am seeing you hold to almost every doctrine of error that exists for sinners, that think they can be saved by faith alone, while they go on still sinning unto death.

Sinners are saved by faith alone: the faith of Christ - He was faithful to the Father and achieved all that He was sent to this world to achieve thereby bringing salvation. The faith of a saved person given from, and by, Christ's faithfulness but is as a fruit of the Spirit from salvation. I think your misunderstanding is because you don't believe that Christ is truly the Saviour and therefore you do not believe that His offering was fully sufficient within itself to provide salvation to those whom He had chosen for such.

1. There is no Scripture of Jesus being found guilty of sinning, because He was not sinning, and He certainly was not found guilty of sinning for sinners. He is the propitiation for all sins of all men, and so is Savior seeking to save all sinners, but He is only the Savior of saints, not sinners.

When you say "no verse of Scripture of Jesus being found guilty of sinning" which of my posts are you referring to? I don't think I ever said that, at least not that way. Please repost it so I can see exactly what you're referring to.

Having said that, how do you interpret the following verse?

[1Pe 3:18 KJV]
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

2. There is no Scripture for salvation being an unearned gift, but rather is the prize of immortality in resurrected spiritual body obtained at the end of the race.

[Eph 2:5, 8 KJV]
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

The faith of Jesus that obeys God is the gift we are being saved by, by obeying His faith with a pure heart.

Before becoming saved, no one by nature (natural man) can have a "pure heart, neither can they give themselves one:

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

3. There is no gospel of works, but only the gospel of Christ that works to be free from sinning within, that we may be free to by justified by our works in His name.

[Rom 9:32 KJV]
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

[Rom 11:6 KJV]
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 3:10 KJV] 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

4. Spiritual sin is not self-justification, but is sinning by lust within the heart, which we are to cleanse ourselves of:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7)

2 Cor 7:1 was addressed to those who were already saved. It was not addressed to the unsaved in order for them to become saved. By being taught scriptural doctrine, those who are saved learn how to conduct themselves and in what they are to believe and why. Again, this comes as a result of salvation, it is not to salvation.

5. No man can be forgiven of sins, past present and future, since there are no future sins to forgive, and no present sinning can be forgiven, since it is now being sinned.

Sinning is a verb, like loving, it is not some doctrinal spirit to be forgiven of.

Those who are saved are no longer under the law. Without being subject to law, there cannot be sin.

[Rom 3:19 KJV]
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[Rom 6:14 KJV]
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[rogerg]

Part 2

6. Saying the saints believe in following a moral code leading to salvation, is another of the false accusations of sinners, that reject the doctrine of being justified by works, that they may be saved by dead faith alone without works.

Wait - didn't you just previously say that Jesus didn't die for sins?
Anyway, Jesus paid for all sin because He removed those He saved/saves from under law. It is by law that sin is
assessed and judgment rendered.
I think you don't understand that the works that manifests salvation are Christ's works and not theirs. I can explain this in more detail later if you'd like but it is somewhat lengthy.

[Rom 7:8-9 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

[1Co 15:56 KJV]
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

7. There is no being saved from the condemnation of the law nor the law itself, since the law is not sin, nor is doing the law sinful. Condemnation is for transgressing the law, which is what all sinning is.

We are saved from sinning against the law, so that there is now no condemnation for doing so.

Those saved, are saved from the law's condemnation because they are no longer subject to law but to grace, as I demonstrated in the verses above.

8. The devil does not use the law at all, nor does he tempt any man to keep it. The devil only tempts to disobey the law of God, by lying about God and His law.

He uses law to tempt people into trying to justify themselves before God by the keeping of it. Law itself is not
sinful nor evil(as I believe I stated), but sin and evil come from an attempt to justify oneself by
the keeping of it because it leads them away from the perfect efficacy of Christ's offering and is thereby calling God a liar regarding what He stated regarding the Saviour. The moral law should be followed but not trusting in it to produce salvation. Besides, salvation can only come by and through the new law: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Heb 7:12 KJV]
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[Eph 2:15 KJV]
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace

 

[rogerg]

Part 3 (I hope I didn't mess up which of my replies go with your replies. If
any seem a mismatch let me know)

9. The law of sin and death is not the law of God, neither that written by Moses for the OT, nor that written by the apostles for the NT. The law of the Spirit does not defeat the law of God. The house of God is not divided against itself by two competing laws, which is confusion.

The law of sin and death is the law that all unsaved will ultimately be judged by. It was God's prerogative
to make a law against anything that displeased, or was against Him or His purposes - especially since He sent Christ
to nullify it on behalf those to be saved.

Everyone ever born is born under and remains under the law of sin and death until and unless they become saved.

10. Salvation is not before nor by spiritual knowledge and wisdom of the Scriptures. Any man reading the Bible and hearing the gospel will have spiritual knowledge and wisdom: it is only those who do the word that are saved.

There is no salvation by faith nor knowledge nor wisdom alone. Many sinners apply the wisdom of the Bible for their own good in this life, but only the saints do the word with a pure heart for His name's sake, now and forever.

Salvation is given to those (and only those) whom God had chosen before the foundation of the world. Everything else is/was logistics for that end. Neither spiritual knowledge nor wisdom can bring salvation -- it is salvation's fruit

I've already covered this multiple times. An attempt to justify oneself before God by the keeping of the la
instead of by Christ, is the sin.

[Rom 8:3 KJV] 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

11. There is nothing sinful with the law nor the letter of the law: What letters of the law to flee fornication are not good to do? Condemning the letter of the law is condemning the law written for us in letters of Scripture: no Scripture of God is sinful.

The only death by the letter, is either transgressing the law, or is seeking to do the law without the Spirit, which is why we minister the Spirit with the law of God, and not the letter only.

The self-righteous minister the law without the Spirit, and the unrighteous minister the Spirit without the law.

I've already covered this multiple times. An attempt to justify oneself before God by the keeping of the law
instead of by Christ, is the sin.

12. Saying that there is no Spirit in doing the law, because it is a law, is saying that the law of God is not spiritual. And to further say that only the Spirit can be ministered from the heart without the law, is becoming a law unto oneself: a spiritual being choosing good and evil for oneself, which of course is the godhood promised to man by the serpent.

I don't even know what you mean by that statement nor where I said anything
close to that. Are you sure it is me that you're referencing and don't have me confused with
someone else? Please repost it so I can know exactly what you're referring to and then I'll respond to it.

13. We do not depend upon future judgment, nor any judgment, but rather we trust in Christ to do His righteousness, that we may be righteous as He, having boldness in the righteous judgment of God.

Neither the law of God nor the judgment of God is done away, so that His people might freely sin without condemnation.

Again, this reply makes no sense.

14. There is no one Christ has 'brought to Himself': He draws all men to Himself by the gospel, but only them receiving Him are saved by Him. He draws men to open their doors to them by knocking at the door to enter.

[Jhn 6:36-39 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

15. For them being saved, they have no condemnation, so long as they are not sinning: salvation is not from the righteous judgment of God. All men will still be judged by the works.

They will be judged by/against the works of Christ if they're unsaved. All unsaved will fall short.

16. There is no 'once become saved', but only being saved from our sins to obtain eternal salvation by obeying Him unto the end. There is no once saved in the past, like some done deal and money in the bank.

No one being disobedient to God is being saved, but only them obeying Him now and today:

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

What does the "eternal" in the verse mean?
And to be obedient is to trust in Christ alone for salvation, not in ourselves or our actions

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Rev 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

17. The only known Lamb at the foundation of the world was the Word. God foreknowing who is not predetermining who. There were not heavenly host of little lambs already saved from the foundation of the world.

That lie of Calvin is why many believers do not work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, because they think all souls have been prechosen by God to be saved or not. And so, it's all a matter of written fate anyway, and so we just wait until the end to see.

This is why you seem not to be the least troubled by not knowing if you are saved and have eternal life or not. You no doubt think you are one of those little lambs from the beginning, but you also think you have nothing to say nor do about it.

Which of course is why all your teaching is about not doing, rather than doing, especially when it comes to doing the righteousness of the law of God by Christ Jesus.

"little lambs from the beginning"? Makes no sense.

You left out the second part:
[Phl 2:13 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Meaning that if someone is chosen by God to salvation, no matter where they may start from in knowledge or faith,
God nevertheless will lead them to the true Gospel and to having faith in Christ alone as Lord, God and Saviour.

Thanks, and I was thinking the same about you.

 

[Hopeful]

Ok, I would say we do have a part (repentance/faith etc) but only because God has already begun a work in us of conviction/illumination etc.

I don't believe that God picks out, ahead of time, who He will or will not condemn.
What God has done, however, is give us the history of the believers, and of the unbelievers, of Israel, and lets us make our own choice of whom to follow.

 

[Hopeful]

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. (Rom 9)

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (Rom 10)

Scripture rebukes any works of any law, including Christ's own law, that are done without pure faith from the heart: they are outward and bodily only.

Seeking to do the righteousness of God without first believing and being purified by Christ, is vanity and unjustified of God.

Paul was also declaring that no Christian can possibly be justified in outward circumcision, as by law, since it is no more law of Christ to do so.

The Galatians were bewitched into a zeal of faith for certain works, that are no longer commanded by law of God.

It's the same for Sabbath keepers, who do so as by law, and not only by personal free will of faith.

Timothy was circumcised, not as by law, but freely for the sake of ministry to the Jews.

So, whether any man seeks to please God by works without faith, or seeks to please God by works of faith in a false law, they are both unpleasing and unjustified with God.

The one seeks to boast of their own works without faith, and the other seeks to boast of their own law with decieved faith.

The main lesson to learn from the Galatians, is not that the law of Moses is evil, but that anything not done by the faith of Jesus is sin.

As by law has two parts:

1. Doing anything as by law of Christ, and it is not written as such by His apostles, which includes circumcision, Sabbath keeping, foods, drinks, linens, etc...

2. Doing any law, including that of Christ, only because it is law, so as to avoid being punished by it, not because of faith in and love for the law from the heart:

I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love. (Ps 119)

Many unbelieving sinners are neighborly, but not justified by Christ.

Yup.

 

[Hopeful]

Terms are important.
For me works are anything we do 'from the flesh' , 'in our own strength', whereas grace is that which is the result of God's Work, both of redemption and in sanctification.

As I have provided the scriptures concerning what "works" that Paul wrote against, (circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping etc.), perhaps you can show a scripture showing a "work of the flesh in our own strength" ?
I need some idea of what exactly you refer to.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Without obedience then what is the Lord lord over in our lives? If He is King then king over what? If He is Master then master of what? If He is Teacher then what lessons do we apply? Obedience is key to our relationship to Him. He gave us examples to follow and commandments to keep.

 

[Hopeful]

Then you're the first one to say it, which for me is the only prohibition.

I know that sinners use the verse to reject righteousness.

How do you read it?

I wrote in post #111..."In 1 John, John uses an alternating verse system to juxtapose those who walk in darkness with those who walk in the light.
Verses 5, 7 and 9 pertain to those who walk in God, (the Light). (v. 5)
Verses 6, 8, and 10 pertain to those who walk in darkness, (sin). (Darkness is sin...Pro 4:19)
Paul uses the same system in Romans 8, where he juxtaposes those who walk in the flesh with those who walk in the Spirit.

Now look at 1 John 2:3-4..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Now look at 1 John 5:18..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

I have many more verses alluding to the ability to walk in the light/God all the time.

 

[rogerg]

Without obedience then what is the Lord lord over in our lives? If He is King then king over what? If He is Master then master of what? If He is Teacher then what lessons do we apply? Obedience is key to our relationship to Him. He gave us examples to follow and commandments to keep.

It is obedience to the faith and is given to those who become saved. God doesn't say we shouldn't be
obedient - in fact just the contrary. He says that we should not justify ourselves before Him by so doing.
Christ is the Saviour, we are not.

 

[daninthelionsden]

It is obedience to the faith and is given to those who become saved. God doesn't say we shouldn't be
obedient - in fact just the contrary. He says that we should not justify ourselves before Him by so doing.
Christ is the Saviour, we are not.

Throughout the Gospels Jesus told us to do several things and not to do other things. Are you saying you have no intention to obey? Are you telling others not to obey as well?

 

[rogerg]

Throughout the Gospels Jesus told us to do several things and not to do other things. Are you saying you have no intention to obey? Are you telling others not to obey as well?

Is that what you got from my reply? I said we are not to use obedience to justify ourselves before God. Those
who become saved are under greater responsibility to do the right thing then are the unsaved, nevertheless,
we are not justified by that. If we do not do what's right, we will be chastised by God until we do - and it ain't fun nor is it pretty. However, we can only be justified by grace through Christ.

[Heb 12:6-8 KJV]
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

[Rom 3:28 KJV]
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
[Gal 5:4 KJV]
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[Tit 3:7 KJV]
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Is that what you got from my reply? I said we are not to use obedience to justify ourselves before God. Those
who become saved are under greater responsibility to do the right thing then are the unsaved, nevertheless,
we are not justified by that. If we do not do what's right, we will be chastised by God until we do - and it ain't fun nor is it pretty. However, we can only be justified by grace through Christ.

[Heb 12:6-8 KJV]
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

[Rom 3:28 KJV]
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
[Gal 5:4 KJV]
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[Tit 3:7 KJV]
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So you do believe obedience is the evidence of our salvation and evidence we have a relationship with Christ?

 

[rogerg]

So you do believe obedience is the evidence of our salvation and evidence we have a relationship with Christ?

Generally yes depending upon what you're saying that we should be obedient to.
To be obedient to the faith is given as a gift from God and comes from salvation, not to salvation - God's work
not ours.

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

 

[rogerg]

So you do believe obedience is the evidence of our salvation and evidence we have a relationship with Christ?

I should have included in my prior post that all actions of a true believe, as much as possible, should be to the glory of God, but, doing so is not what brings salvation.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Generally yes depending upon what you're saying that we should be obedient to.
To be obedient to the faith is given as a gift from God and comes from salvation, not to salvation - God's work
not ours.

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

I believe that going too law heavy leads to one justifying oneself while going too grace heavy leads to an unaccountability for anything. My walk with the Lord showed me it's about a relationship and He will show me what He wants me to do and not do according to His Word through the Holy Spirit. There is a balance between His grace and our obedience and this scale is balanced on the Cross. His thumb (not ours) is on that scale and He will decide when He grants grace or demands obedience as He writes His law on our hearts. Believing is obeying as He reveals it to us. I was raised in a grace heavy house. All manner of sin took place there and they all claimed to be Christians and heaven bound.

 

[rogerg]

I wrote in post #111..."In 1 John, John uses an alternating verse system to juxtapose those who walk in darkness with those who walk in the light.
Verses 5, 7 and 9 pertain to those who walk in God, (the Light). (v. 5)
Verses 6, 8, and 10 pertain to those who walk in darkness, (sin). (Darkness is sin...Pro 4:19)
Paul uses the same system in Romans 8, where he juxtaposes those who walk in the flesh with those who walk in the Spirit.

Just out of curiosity, Hopeful, you do realize that God moved all of the biblical scribes write exactly what He
wanted written, exactly how He wanted it written: it is one completely integrated book through all of its
chapter and verse. Otherwise, we would not be able to place the full and complete weight of our trust upon it.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.