Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[RBDERRICK]

Again, one can only be justified by grace. There is no other way to salvation but through the grace of Christ.
Do you think that to be "too grace heavy"?

That is because the only works we can be justified by, are works of grace through faith.

Having a pure heart and doing God's righteousness is all by grace.

Grace is our help to do so, not our cover while not doing so.

If we are sinning, we have no grace of God, because we don't want His help not to be sinning.

We are instead trampling the blood of Jesus and despising His spirit of grace: no one sinning against God is born of God, but is an enemy of God by sinning with the devil.

 

[rogerg]

No man committing a sin against God is in grace, with grace, or of grace. Neither is he in fellowship with nor born of God.

Those who become saved cannot sin because they are no longer under law. What do you think this verse means?

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Okay, let me clarify this again. There are two issues in view: 1) salvation and, 2) how someone who is saved should act.
How someone acts does or doesn't act does not affect their salvation. Look at Saul (Paul the apostle). Until he was saved he imprisoned and killed Christians, and worse, he tried to destroy the faith. Did that dissuade God from saving him?
Nope. In spite of all that Paul did, God still saved and used him because Paul was chosen by God before the foundation f the world for such -- and everyone becomes saved on the same basis: God does not have two salvation plans.
Now, does that mean that God won't chastise those who do not
behave in a God glorifying manner? No. God will most certainly make that person through chastisement become what He wants him to become -- God's work.

That's apples and oranges when comparing one's behavior prior to Christ vs post Christ. Are you saying one who accepts Christ THEN commits all manner of sin is STILL saved?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Part 2

Wait - didn't you just previously say that Jesus didn't die for sins?
Anyway, Jesus paid for all sin because He removed those He saved/saves from under law. It is by law that sin is
assessed and judgment rendered.
I think you don't understand that the works that manifests salvation are Christ's works and not theirs. I can explain this in more detail later if you'd like but it is somewhat lengthy.

[Rom 7:8-9 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.

[1Co 15:56 KJV]
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world, not just believers. He paid the price of death, so that them receiving Him would not be sinning and dying to God.

He did not pay for sins by removing His law from man to obey.

The only law removed is Moses, not Christ. The law of God is still written in Scripture of the apostles for the world to read today: we are under the law of Christ now, not the law of Moses.

Those saved, are saved from the law's condemnation because they are no longer subject to law but to grace, as I demonstrated in the verses above.


He uses law to tempt people into trying to justify themselves before God by the keeping of it. Law itself is not
sinful nor evil(as I believe I stated), but sin and evil come from an attempt to justify oneself by
the keeping of it because it leads them away from the perfect efficacy of Christ's offering and is thereby calling God a liar regarding what He stated regarding the Saviour. The moral law should be followed but not trusting in it to produce salvation. Besides, salvation can only come by and through the new law: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus:

Those saved are not sinning against the law of Christ, and so are not judged and condemned by it.

I'll not be responding to any more of your law-talk, until you address the points I've made in response.

All you're doing is repeating yourself.

I'm not a sounding board for mantra.

 

[rogerg]

hat's apples and oranges when comparing one's behavior prior to Christ vs post Christ. Are you saying one who accepts Christ THEN commits all manner of sin is STILL saved?

When someone becomes saved they also become a new person in Christ with a new spirit, and a renewed mind. They would not want to engage in activities that are not God glorifying and if they do, He will chastise them until they don't.
No one saved is perfect but they are no longer under law to be judged by the law to lose their salvation. Without the law there can be no judgement. For example, if I drive on the freeway at 90MPH I've broken the law and will get a ticket or worse. However, if the speed limit is removed and I drive 90MPH, guess what: no ticket. Christ removed those saved from being under the law. Please observe:

[Rom 6:14 KJV] 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Also, consider that with Christ came a new law.

 

[rogerg]

He did not pay for sins by removing His law from man to obey.

Right - He removed the those saved from the law. You do know that with Christ came a new law.

[Heb 7:12 KJV] 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

[Heb 7:24-25 KJV]
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[crossnote]

No, only those receiving Him do. The rest remain convicted of sins.

The grace of God is twofold: to convict of sinning and to help repent of sinning.

Until the resurrection of Jesus, the Spirit was only convicting them that knew the oracles of God, which included individuals until the tribes of Israel were born, who also were scattered among the nations at times.

I asked because in post #103 you said, "so that the Spirit is already poured out upon all flesh".
Do you see the pouring out of the Spirit in Acts 2 the same as the Spirit 'already poured out on all flesh'?

 

[daninthelionsden]

When someone becomes saved they also become a new person in Christ with a new spirit, and a renewed mind. They would not want to engage in activities that are not God glorifying and if they do, He will chastise them until they don't.
No one saved is perfect but they are no longer under law to be judged by the law to lose their salvation. Without the law there can be no judgement. For example, if I drive on the freeway at 90MPH I've broken the law and will get a ticket or worse. However, if the speed limit is removed and I drive 90MPH, guess what: no ticket. Christ removed those saved from being under the law. Please observe:

[Rom 6:14 KJV] 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Also, consider that with Christ came a new law.

If we stay in Christ, then yes. If we walk away, then no. We will most likely never see eye to eye here. I'm not OSAS. My mother was as are my half siblings. All manner of sin they commit.

 

[crossnote]

As I said, if you want to condemn preaching doing righteousness at all times, as saying we have no sin, then that's a false accusation, not a correction.

Until, you quote the teaching at any place and show how it is false, then I can respond. Otherwise, I'll be moving on.

Perfectionism is false unless on can love the Lord their God with all their, heart, all their mind. all their soul and all their strength all the time (24/7). Only Jesus did that. Anyone claiming that attainment is a bold faced liar. (thus forfeiting their imaginary perfection)...I hope you don't claim that.

 

[rogerg]

f we stay in Christ, then yes. If we walk away, then no.

Okay we can end the discussion here but keep in mind that if salvation can be lost once given, the word "eternal" will have to be removed from a lot of Scripture

 

[crossnote]

I was speaking of man's ability as a created spiritual being to change his own ways to his own like, I was not speaking of the power of God with His Spirit to change our ways to God's liking.

Do you really think mankind who are enslaved to sin and satan and their flesh, have the power/ability to change his being? My Bible says it takes a new birth.

 

[crossnote]

The dual nature theology of being 'righteous' somewhere in the heavenlies, while being unrighteous in the flesh, is false and spiritually delusional.

There are not two natures. We are declared righteous (justified by faith) yet simultaneously unrighteous in the flesh.

(Rom 4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(Rom 4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[crossnote]

I don't believe that God picks out, ahead of time, who He will or will not condemn.
What God has done, however, is give us the history of the believers, and of the unbelievers, of Israel, and lets us make our own choice of whom to follow.

What we believe and what God says in His Word may be two different things...

(Eph 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Eph 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[RBDERRICK]

The law of sin and death is the law that all unsaved will ultimately be judged by. It was God's prerogative
to make a law against anything that displeased, or was against Him or His purposes - especially since He sent Christ
to nullify it on behalf those to be saved.

Disagree. The law of the Spirit does not war with the law of God, whether that of Moses or of Christ.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8)

Everyone ever born is born under and remains under the law of sin and death until and unless they become saved.

Until they stop sinning against the law of God.

Which is what we are saved from doing, first within the heart and also with the flesh.

Salvation is given to those (and only those) whom God had chosen before the foundation of the world. Everything else is/was logistics for that end. Neither spiritual knowledge nor wisdom can bring salvation -- it is salvation's fruit

I've already covered this multiple times. An attempt to justify oneself before God by the keeping of the la
instead of by Christ, is the sin.

I know. You're only repeating yourself now. You do not actually address my counterpoints. Until you at least acknowledge them to do so, then we are drawing to a close.

Salvation is not the gift. The faith of Jesus is the gift that saves. Salvation is obtained by them obeying Him through His faith by grace.

I've already covered this multiple times. An attempt to justify oneself before God by the keeping of the law
instead of by Christ, is the sin.

You not only have a habit of not responding to my counterpoints, but you also misstate them to make them sound the opposite.

Keeping the law of Christ without faith, instead of by Christ, are works of the law.

Keeping the law of CHrist through Christ are works of faith that we are justified by.

We are justified by works of faith, not by faith alone, which is dead: those trusting in their own faith alone are the self-justifiers, even as those who seek to do the law without faith.

I don't even know what you mean by that statement nor where I said anything
close to that. Are you sure it is me that you're referencing and don't have me confused with
someone else? Please repost it so I can know exactly what you're referring to and then I'll respond to it.


Again, this reply makes no sense.

The sum of your teaching is that the law of God written in Scripture on paper is no more to be obeyed. No man can do so through faith nor the Spirit in obedience to God.

Yes/No?

The law of God is now done away for man to read on paper, and the only law to obey is that written in the heart and mind. Now, only that which believers do by faith establishes the righteousness of the law of God, which no law on paper can judge nor condemn.

Yes/No?

They will be judged by/against the works of Christ if they're unsaved. All unsaved will fall short.

We are judged by His word, which is His law written in Scripture of the apostles. We are not judged by His works, such as silencing the waves and winds, or healing the blind man, or rolling ears of corn on the Sabbath day.

There is no such things a being judged by Christ's works: all men are judged by their own works, whether believer or not.

And to be obedient is to trust in Christ alone for salvation, not in ourselves or our actions

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

[Rev 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That's a nonsensical feel good statement for dead faith alone. "I am obeying God, by obediently trusting in Him alone for salvation." Right.

We obey God by obeying Him: His word, law, commandments, and His faith to do it.

Obeying our trust in Him is meaningless.

"little lambs from the beginning"? Makes no sense.

You left out the second part:
[Phl 2:13 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Meaning that if someone is chosen by God to salvation, no matter where they may start from in knowledge or faith,
God nevertheless will lead them to the true Gospel and to having faith in Christ alone as Lord, God and Saviour.

Thanks, and I was thinking the same about you.

Your teaching of souls predestined to be saved or not from the foundation of the world, is like little lambs in the beginning being already selected before entering the world. They act like they were with the Lamb in the beginning.

God doesn't choose anyone unto Himself, until they believe, receive, and begin to obey Him, which begins within the heart to purify and guard our hearts against lusting for sin.

The only One chosen from the foundation of the world, was the Word Christ to lay down His life for the world on the cross.

Any man chosen in Christ, is only when becoming born again of Christ in this life.

 

[crossnote]

As I have provided the scriptures concerning what "works" that Paul wrote against, (circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping etc.), perhaps you can show a scripture showing a "work of the flesh in our own strength" ?
I need some idea of what exactly you refer to.

(Php 3:4) Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
(Php 3:5) Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
(Php 3:6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
(Php 3:7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
(Php 3:8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
(Php 3:9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

(Rom 10:3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
(Rom 10:4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
(Rom 10:5) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom_9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Gal_5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

The story of Uzzah shows God's displeasure of our works done in the flesh...

(2Sa 6:6) And when they came to Nachon's threshing floor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.
(2Sa 6:7) And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.

The story of Cain as well as that of Abraham working in his own strength to bring about God's promise by having Ishmael through Hagar. (see Gal 4:21-29)

 

[rogerg]

Disagree. The law of the Spirit does not war with the law of God, whether that of Moses or of Christ.

Wait - the verse says the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made Paul free from the
law of sin and death. If Paul was made free from sin and death, by the law of life,
then he has been given life eternal.

Look, I think the reason we see of salvation differently is due to our respective different understanding
of Jesus as Saviour. It appears those perceptions are, at least as of now, unreconcilable. I believe,
as the verse states, that Christ saves to the uttermost, meaning there is nothing remaining to becoming saved beyond what He has already achieved. Apparently, from what I can gather, you believe that it is up to the individual to supplement that salvation in some way. With that in mind, with each perception at a tangent to the other, I don't see a any useful purpose in continuing the dialogue. Should you change your mind let me know, and I will do the same.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Perfectionism is false unless on can love the Lord their God with all their, heart, all their mind. all their soul and all their strength all the time (24/7). Only Jesus did that. Anyone claiming that attainment is a bold faced liar. (thus forfeiting their imaginary perfection)...I hope you don't claim that.

So, you are an idealist Christian only. You don't believe the commandments are to be obeyed, but only approximated.

What you call imaginary perfection, is what God calls loving Him with all your heart, and your neighbor from a pure heart in Christ.

You are one of them that would worship Jesus Christ as God, while only idolizing His life as a man.

You don't count His blood as any better than that of a bull or goat, because you do not believe His power given us is sufficient to keep His commandments as commanded to us in Scripture.

Do you really think mankind who are enslaved to sin and satan and their flesh, have the power/ability to change his being? My Bible says it takes a new birth.

Not you, since you plainly associate yourself with mankind still enslaved to sin and their flesh. No such sinner has power to change their being, which is why Jesus comes to give us power to do so with Him from within first.

And since you deny that power of godliness, you don't do so, but rather call it imaginary.

There are not two natures. We are declared righteous (justified by faith) yet simultaneously unrighteous in the flesh.

(Rom 4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(Rom 4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You are preaching it in another way, but with the same error: the flesh is not born with sin nature, nor is the living soul created by Christ at birth with sin: Jesus' body was made of the seed of David by Mary, which is mortal, not sinful.

No man is justified by faith alone, and there is no soul justified, while the body is sinning. No one doing unrighteousness is born of God. If anyone is committing sin, he is of the devil.

No one doing unrighteousness is righteous, nor declared righteous: Imputed righteousness is desire to do His righteousness only, which is only by faith. Only the doers of the word are justified with God.

When we receive Christ to do His will, it is no longer we doing the work, but Christ within us, to do His righteousness in the flesh, even as He did in the days of His flesh.

You only idealize His life as a man in mortal flesh, which is why you do not walk in His steps with Him hand in hand.

And your OSAS doctrine of judging only the body for sinning, and not the soul, so that the soul is still declared righteous, while the body is sinning, is delusional.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Those who become saved cannot sin because they are no longer under law. What do you think this verse means?

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It means we cannot be committing sin and be born of God at the same time.

When any one is sinning, that one is of the devil.

No one can be a son of God and a child of the devil at the same time.

Right - He removed the those saved from the law. You do know that with Christ came a new law.

[Heb 7:12 KJV] 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

[Heb 7:24-25 KJV]
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Yes, and that law still condemns adultery. You're removed law, so cannot sin ideology is delusional.

Not only can one committing adultery be of God, but also one doing so within the heart.

As I've said, we are under the law of Christ, not of Moses. The law of Moses is done away, not the law of CHrist, which is now the new law of the NT written by His apostles into Scripture for us to obey.

You want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so that you cannot be judged for sinning against God.

Wait - the verse says the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made Paul free from the
law of sin and death. If Paul was made free from sin and death, by the law of life,
then he has been given life eternal.

True, and so long as we abide in Him and remain free of lust within the heart and sins of the flesh, then our soul is alive and shall never die.

Look, I think the reason we see of salvation differently is due to our respective different understanding
of Jesus as Saviour. It appears those perceptions are, at least as of now, unreconcilable. I believe,
as the verse states, that Christ saves to the uttermost, meaning there is nothing remaining to becoming saved beyond what He has already achieved. Apparently, from what I can gather, you believe that it is up to the individual to supplement that salvation in some way. With that in mind, with each perception at a tangent to the other, I don't see a any useful purpose in continuing the dialogue. Should you change your mind let me know, and I will do the same.

Not likely. All you do is repeat yourself.

You are OSAS and God is not.

And you removal of the law of God, so that you cannot sin against it nor God, is delusional self-justification.

If you are fornicating, you are judged a fornicator by the law of Christ, and you are not being saved, born of God, nor have eternal life. Those fornicating are of the devil.

Same for all sins and transgressions being committed against the word and law of Christ.

 

[rogerg]

It means we cannot be committing sin and be born of God at the same time.

No, that is not what it means, and you've taken undue liberty with that verse.
It says that he cannot sin.
As with any birth, it can only occur once, not multiple time.

 

[crossnote]

So, you are an idealist Christian only. You don't believe the commandments are to be obeyed, but only approximated.

What you call imaginary perfection, is what God calls loving Him with all your heart, and your neighbor from a pure heart in Christ.

You are one of them that would worship Jesus Christ as God, while only idolizing His life as a man.

You don't count His blood as any better than that of a bull or goat, because you do not believe His power given us is sufficient to keep His commandments as commanded to us in Scripture.


Not you, since you plainly associate yourself with mankind still enslaved to sin and their flesh. No such sinner has power to change their being, which is why Jesus comes to give us power to do so with Him from within first.

And since you deny that power of godliness, you don't do so, but rather call it imaginary.




You are preaching it in another way, but with the same error: the flesh is not born with sin nature, nor is the living soul created by Christ at birth with sin: Jesus' body was made of the seed of David by Mary, which is mortal, not sinful.

No man is justified by faith alone, and there is no soul justified, while the body is sinning. No one doing unrighteousness is born of God. If anyone is committing sin, he is of the devil.

No one doing unrighteousness is righteous, nor declared righteous: Imputed righteousness is desire to do His righteousness only, which is only by faith. Only the doers of the word are justified with God.

When we receive Christ to do His will, it is no longer we doing the work, but Christ within us, to do His righteousness in the flesh, even as He did in the days of His flesh.

You only idealize His life as a man in mortal flesh, which is why you do not walk in His steps with Him hand in hand.

And your OSAS doctrine of judging only the body for sinning, and not the soul, so that the soul is still declared righteous, while the body is sinning, is delusional.

I know my God and I know the Scriptures, your personal attacks mean nothing to me.