Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[rogerg]

I believe that going too law heavy leads to one justifying oneself while going too grace heavy leads to an unaccountability for anything.

Again, one can only be justified by grace. There is no other way to salvation but through the grace of Christ.
Do you think that to be "too grace heavy"?

 

[daninthelionsden]

Just out of curiosity, Hopeful, you do realize that God moved all of the biblical scribes write exactly what He
wanted written, exactly how He wanted it written: it is one completely integrated book through all of its
chapter and verse. Otherwise, we would not be able to place the full and complete weight of our trust upon it.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Yes, but you need to know that when he wrote that, the only scriptures available and what he was referring to was the OT.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Again, one can only be justified by grace. There is no other way to salvation but through the grace of Christ.
Do you think that to be "too grace heavy"?

We are saved by His Grace, but this is evidenced in our growing walk and relationship with Him by obedience. If we refuse to obey Him, where is the evidence?

 

[rogerg]

Yes, but you need to know that when he wrote that, the only scriptures available and what he was referring to was the OT.

Don't think so - for example:

[2Pe 3:15 KJV]
15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

In any event, whenever a verse was written that became part of the Bible, it was because of God's will that it be so
and with those exact words

 

[RBDERRICK]

Sinners are saved by faith alone: the faith of Christ - He was faithful to the Father and achieved all that He was sent to this world to achieve thereby bringing salvation. The faith of a saved person given from, and by, Christ's faithfulness but is as a fruit of the Spirit from salvation. I think your misunderstanding is because you don't believe that Christ is truly the Saviour and therefore you do not believe that His offering was fully sufficient within itself to provide salvation to those whom He had chosen for such.

Faith alone is dead.

The rest is a flimsy accusation against those who are justified by works of faith.

When you say "no verse of Scripture of Jesus being found guilty of sinning" which of my posts are you referring to? I don't think I ever said that, at least not that way. Please repost it so I can see exactly what you're referring to.

Having said that, how do you interpret the following verse?

[1Pe 3:18 KJV]
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


[Eph 2:5, 8 KJV]
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

"Not dependent upon a future judgment. It is dependent upon Christ and that He has already been judged on our behalf, found guilty, and suffered a punishment that should have been ours to endure."

Ok. Found guilty. Jesus was not found guilty of anything.

He suffered for us to pay the price we cannot pay, and to deliver us from sinning, so that we don't have to pay in hell.

Before becoming saved, no one by nature (natural man) can have a "pure heart, neither can they give themselves one:

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Try not to misstate what others say, so you accurately address it. God gives us the new clean heart, and we are to keep it clean, and if not, then we are to purify it as was given to us. We don't 'give it to ourselves.'

Those not keeping their hearts pure are not keeping themselves from sinning, and so are not born of God: the past doesn't matter.

[Rom 9:32 KJV]
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

[Rom 11:6 KJV]
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Gal 3:10 KJV] 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Works of God's righteousness fulfilling the law are not works of the law, which are works without faith.

Since we are justified by works in James, and not by works of the law in Paul, then obviously works of faith according to the law are not works of the law.

Works of the law are born of the law, as is flesh born of flesh. Works of faith are born of faith, as is spirit born of spirit.

The only way the law of the Spirit of life can be obeyed and fulfilled is by works of faith with the Spirit of Christ.

2 Cor 7:1 was addressed to those who were already saved. It was not addressed to the unsaved in order for them to become saved. By being taught scriptural doctrine, those who are saved learn how to conduct themselves and in what they are to believe and why. Again, this comes as a result of salvation, it is not to salvation.

True. You are the only one who ever speaks of doing anything unto salvation. Unless, you are going to start teaching it, then you need to drop it, because it has no relevance.

The Scripture is telling the believers what we are to do in our part of being saved: working out our salvation by cleansing ourselves daily from lust to sin with the mind and body.

Unbelievers cannot do so, and believers not doing so are the wretched double minded of Romans 7, and are in danger of hell, if they repent not and go onto the perfectness of Romans 8.

Those who are saved are no longer under the law. Without being subject to law, there cannot be sin.

[Rom 3:19 KJV]
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[Rom 6:14 KJV]
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

The law of Christ is written in letters of the apostles: we are now under the law of Christ, not of Moses. (1 Cor 9:21)

This smacks of the delusional doctrine of soul separation from the body, where the soul can no longer sin, not being under the law, while the body goes on sinning, being lawless.

1. Are you saying you are not sinning?

2. Are you saying, when you are sinning, it is not you the soul and new inner man, but the body only?

 

[rogerg]

We are saved by His Grace, but this is evidenced in our growing walk and relationship with Him by obedience. If we refuse to obey Him, where is the evidence?

Refuse to obey Him according to what?

 

[daninthelionsden]

Don't think so - for example:

[2Pe 3:15 KJV]
15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

In any event, whenever a verse was written that became part of the Bible, it was because of God's will that it be so
and with those exact words

I would find it hard to believe that at that point in time any of them believed their words were scripture save Christ's.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Refuse to obey Him according to what?

The law of Christ, which includes commandments such as loving God, loving our neighbors, not fornicating, not having respect of persons, no murdering, cursing one another, etc... there's more, but those of pure heart don't have to read them to do them through the Spirit.

Those transgressing them prove to their own selves, that they are not of born of God, because they are sinning against God.

Unless they are hypocrites, of course.

 

[rogerg]

I would find it hard to believe that at that point in time any of them believed their words were scripture save Christ's.

I would disagree but, in any event, it didn't matter whether they were aware of it or not, only that God
moved them to write what He wanted them to

[Jhn 16:13 KJV] 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I would find it hard to believe that at that point in time any of them believed their words were scripture save Christ's.

Why would you say that? What's the point? Peter delcare Paul's writings were just as much Scripture as that of his own and other apostles and prophets:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3)

 

[RBDERRICK]

Again, one can only be justified by grace. There is no other way to salvation but through the grace of Christ.
Do you think that to be "too grace heavy"?

There is no doing righteousness too grace heavy, but only sinning without grace.

 

[rogerg]

there's more, but those of pure heart don't have to read them to do them through the Spirit.

That was my point. But... neither does failure to do them perfectly mean those who don't, aren't saved. Look at
king David - he was far from perfect relative to the rules you stated, and he was not only saved but also a prophet.
By the way, a new heart can only be received from God when saved.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

[rogerg]

There is no doing righteousness too grace heavy, but only sinning without grace.

Grace is unto salvation

 

[daninthelionsden]

Refuse to obey Him according to what?

According to what the Holy Spirit impresses upon you to do or not do in your walk with Him. It is about a RELATIONSHIP with a living God revealing His living Word. This is not about a court of law, but rather walking with our Judge as He shows us how to live and act toward Him and others.

 

[RBDERRICK]

That was my point. But... neither does failure to do them perfectly mean those who don't, aren't saved. Look at
king David - he was far from perfect relative to the rules you stated, and he was not only saved but also a prophet.
By the way, a new heart can only be received from God when saved.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

I don't look at David, but at Jesus.

No man sinning against the law of Christ is born of Christ nor following Him. Yesterday is past, and tomorrow may not come.

Are you saying we can be committing sin now today, and yet at that time of sinning not be of the devil, but born of God?

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3)

This has nothing to do with anything other than at the time in which any man is sinning against God and transgressing the law of CHrist.

Take your pick: Fornication. Drunkenness. Thefts. Idolatry. Covetousness. Lusting for man or woman...

 

[daninthelionsden]

Why would you say that? What's the point? Peter delcare Paul's writings were just as much Scripture as that of his own and other apostles and prophets:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2 Peter 3)

Thank you for sharing that with me.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Grace is unto salvation

Which doesn't include sinning.

No man committing a sin against God is in grace, with grace, or of grace. Neither is he in fellowship with nor born of God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Thank you for sharing that with me.

I only didn't understand the point. Maybe I should have reviewed further back.

 

[rogerg]

According to what the Holy Spirit impresses upon you to do or not do in your walk with Him. It is about a RELATIONSHIP with a living God revealing His living Word. This is not about a court of law, but rather walking with our Judge as He shows us how to live and act toward Him and others.

Okay, let me clarify this again. There are two issues in view: 1) salvation and, 2) how someone who is saved should act.
How someone acts does or doesn't act does not affect their salvation. Look at Saul (Paul the apostle). Until he was saved he imprisoned and killed Christians, and worse, he tried to destroy the faith. Did that dissuade God from saving him?
Nope. In spite of all that Paul did, God still saved and used him because Paul was chosen by God before the foundation f the world for such -- and everyone becomes saved on the same basis: God does not have two salvation plans.
Now, does that mean that God won't chastise those who do not
behave in a God glorifying manner? No. God will most certainly make that person through chastisement become what He wants him to become -- God's work.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I only didn't understand the point. Maybe I should have reviewed further back.

No need. I joined this thread late. I have seen people quote Paul over Christ in other forums. My reply was that Paul didn't save me, Christ did. I don't remember just what the subject matter was. It was years ago.