Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

[Edward]

I guess we won't understand you until you explain why justification is not free even though the Bible says it is.

Romans 3:23-24
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:15-17
15But the (free) gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the (free) gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16Again, the (free) gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the (free) gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the (free) gift of righteousness (see Romans 3:24 above) reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!


These passages plainly say justification (receiving God's righteousness) is free. It's undeniable. So explain to us what it means for justification (being made righteous) to be free. Because that's what the Bible plainly says it is. Or, do you want to continue to insist it is not free?

I think you're both sort of right. It is free but if you would have a way to elevate yourself and your position in Heaven when all is said and done, then all of that comes with a price. To more who is given, more will be required.She might be having difficulty fully understanding how grace works...?

If you lose it in Kansas, then you just spin out, lol. But if you spin out on the mountain of God, you go flying off the cliff and fall a long ways. So do be sure you really want what you pray for because it is harder and more dangerous.

 

[Edward]

Costs are required, but not in order to be made righteous. That happens by having faith in God's forgiveness all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6). And, no, the 'hidden' costs required to be a disciple of Jesus are not hidden...unless you fail to recognize and weigh those costs! Jesus tells us to consider the cost of being a disciple of His. Those costs are only hidden if you don't heed Jesus' words. And those are not costs that must be paid in order to be made righteous. Faith does that all by itself apart from works.

Hmmm. Faith produces action. So faith is dead without works...because faith produces action, so if there is no action then no fruit is produced then that takes us back to no faith to begin with.

Faith is faith and you are right about that. But, faith without works is really dead because faith is the substance which manifests into a healing or a blessing when an appropriate work comes beside it. Some call it atanding on faith others say it's walking in faith. Faith has to be moving, to be dynamic. If faith does not produce the action then where is the substance to come from? Faith without an action is like unto one being a hearer of the word alone and not a doer.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Oh, Dorothy, Dorothy...

Daniel 4:27
27Therefore, Your Majesty, be pleased to accept my advice: Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue.”

Jethro, Jethro,

"Therefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable to you: break off your sins by practicing righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the oppressed, that there may perhaps be a lengthening of your prosperity.”"

Did you have to look long and hard for a translation that has that word in it? The Hebrew word there is actually "break off" not merely say words "I renounce my sins" which makes sense. God is not interesting in us legally telling the powers that be that we "renounce" sins but have no intention to stop doing them. "Breaking off" means stop doing them, not merely say some legal words.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Costs are required, but not in order to be made righteous. That happens by having faith in God's forgiveness all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6). And, no, the 'hidden' costs required to be a disciple of Jesus are not hidden...unless you fail to recognize and weigh those costs! Jesus tells us to consider the cost of being a disciple of His. Those costs are only hidden if you don't heed Jesus' words. And those are not costs that must be paid in order to be made righteous. Faith does that all by itself apart from works.

Beat that dead horse!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Oivey! Lol. No, I didn't change my story. Remember I told you renouncing your sin IS repenting.

Daniel 4:27
27 Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed.”

Except "renouncing" is not repenting at all. It is a legal verbal statement distancing oneself from something. I gave you the REAL definition, not the one you are making up. If a man renounces his citizenship before authorities verbally or in writing, he is not longer a citizenship, something you did to believe but is actually true.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Costs are required, but not in order to be made righteous. That happens by having faith in God's forgiveness all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6). And, no, the 'hidden' costs required to be a disciple of Jesus are not hidden...unless you fail to recognize and weigh those costs! Jesus tells us to consider the cost of being a disciple of His. Those costs are only hidden if you don't heed Jesus' words. And those are not costs that must be paid in order to be made righteous. Faith does that all by itself apart from works.

I was listening to Derek Prince yesterday and he said something that shed light on our discussion. It was something like this. The element missing in your harping on you being justified is the relationship. You talk about Jesus coming and looking at who is justified. But when Jesus talks about his evaluating people, he doesn’t mention justification at all. He does mention relationship with Him and deeds done. The focus you present is on your legal standing as though that’s the end. It’s vital to you that you are justified. Why isn’t it vital to you that you walk with Him obeying Him? Where is what He receives from you? Why is your focus on you and being justified?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Then why are you arguing with scripture?

Romans 3:23-24
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Understand what I'm saying? If you want to categorically make the words justification and salvation identical and interchangeable with each other in any and all cases, then by your own argument we can insert the word 'saved' in the verse above in place of 'justified'. And so, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are <saved> freely by His grace". The very argument you are resisting!

When Jesus comes back the believer will be saved, not justified. He's already justified. At that time the final element of salvation, not justification, will be given to the believer (1 Peter 1:5). So you can't just categorically and without exception interchange the words 'justification' and 'salvation' as if they one and the same thing. But as I'm showing you, if you want to insist on that argument then we can switch out 'justified freely' with 'saved freely' in Romans 3:23-24 and your argument against God's free gift of salvation crumbles to pieces like a cheap Dollar Store cookie.

I am not arguing with scripture. I am taking all of it. You edit out the bits you like, the bits that assure you that you are what you want that to be. You believe your theology like a law book. Your main concern is your own state of being justified. What you might give doesn’t seem to register.

I already agreed that you are justified. Can’t you move on?

 

[gordon777]

The discussion is great, discussions have been since Adam and Eve.

Everybody died in those discussions, so they were not so great after all.

One conversation that saves came from heaven.

That same Word, went back to where all good conversations come from.

The Word is with power, because it gives life.

Do people who only have discussions, without showing the power of God, have anything to show any more.




1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.





2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The discussion is great, discussions have been since Adam and Eve.

Everybody died in those discussions, so they were not so great after all.

Did they die from the discussions?? Someone killing them softly with their words?

One conversation that saves came from heaven.

That same Word, went back to where all good conversations come from.

The Word is with power, because it gives life.

Do people who only have discussions, without showing the power of God, have anything to show any more.

Can you give us an example of a discussion that shows the power of God recently?

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Is this a good description of regular church?

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Can you us a modern example of this too please?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why is your focus on you and being justified?

Uh, maybe because that's what we're talking about, lol?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am not arguing with scripture.

But you are arguing with scripture. You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that a person is justified freely, apart from and excluding works.

Romans 3:23-24
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

You have to explain why you do not believe Paul and insist that being justified/saved is NOT free. (And don't forget, you are the one who makes no distinction between justification and salvation.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Uh, maybe because that's what we're talking about, lol?

Can you move on to something else?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But you are arguing with scripture.

No Im not. I’m arguing with you and that’s not the same by any stretch of the imagination.

You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that a person is justified freely, apart from and excluding works.

I already told you that I acknowledge you’re justified sans any works at all. Move on…

Romans 3:23-24
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

You have to explain why you do not believe Paul and insist that being justified/saved is NOT free.

I don’t focus on love being free.

(And don't forget, you are the one who makes no distinction between justification and salvation.)

Jesus didn’t say there was a difference either. There’s following him or not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jethro Bodine, I think that’s a major difference between us. You insist what you got is free to you costing you nothing at all. That’s really important to you, that no obligation is ever placed upon you.

I see that salvation or justification has resulted in a love that costs me and I’m not afraid of that cost but see it as my chance to GIVE and not merely RECEIVE a free gift. My husband was free. I didn’t pay a dowery. No money exchanged hands. But I gladly embrace what that relationship costs me and don’t keep harping on how I didn’t pay for it.

You do the latter.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But you are arguing with scripture. You can't bring yourself to acknowledge that a person is justified freely, apart from and excluding works.

You, Jethro Bodine, are freely justified without repenting or doing a single thing. There. Can you please stop beating that dead horse???

Romans 3:23-24
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

You have to explain why you do not believe Paul and insist that being justified/saved is NOT free. (And don't forget, you are the one who makes no distinction between justification and salvation.)

Jesus makes no distinction between being justified and salvation. There are not two classes of the redeemed, those saved and those justified. There are the sheets and the goats but we will definitely NOT go there because you cannot possibly like those verses. The sheep were not justified by believing and the goats were not unjustified because they did not believe according to JESUS.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you move on to something else?

But that's what this thread is about.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus didn’t say there was a difference either. There’s following him or not.

Okay. Then if the believer is "justified freely" that means they are 'saved freely'. But you keep saying it's not free.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I already told you that I acknowledge you’re justified sans any works at all. Move on…

If justification is freely given then so is salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

@Jethro Bodine, I think that’s a major difference between us. You insist what you got is free to you costing you nothing at all. That’s really important to you, that no obligation is ever placed upon you.

That's right, the only obligation that was placed on me to be justified/saved was to believe in God's forgiveness. And that obligation continues right to the very end. I'm not under obligation to do things in order to get what God says is free and which I already have. It's an obligation to do things commensurate with having and continuing in faith in God's forgiveness.

For example, I don't forgive others to get the forgiveness of God I already have. I forgive as an expression of the faith in the forgiveness of God I already have. This is true of any and all other things that a believer is supposed to do. You don't do those things as a cost that you have to pay to get and keep what you already have. You do those things because of what you already have by faith.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But that's what this thread is about.

No it is not. There is no hint of justification in the OP or title. You diverted it.