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Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

Dorothy Mae said:
I realize your side is legalistic on a level that is rare. I picture you standing before God telling Him that by Romans 3, you didn’t need to do anything to be saved including repent or it wouldn’t be free. He will have a slew of verses to tell you and you will see it differently.
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What part of "freely justified" do you not understand? Romans 3:24

There is NOTHING you can do to be made righteous except trust in the blood of Christ to cleanse your unrighteousness away. It doesn't go away by repenting, being obedient, or anything else you do. It can only go away and replaced with God's righteousness by being forgiven.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Did you need to repent to receive righteousness?
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I renounced my sin before I got saved. But that is not how a person is made righteous (justified). That's what it means for justification to be free. It's very obvious that you are avoiding the argument. Repentance does not make justification not free. If it did then Paul was wrong when he wrote Romans 3:24.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
What part of "freely justified" do you not understand? Romans 3:24

There is NOTHING you can do to be made righteous except trust in the blood of Christ to cleanse your unrighteousness away. It doesn't go away by repenting, being obedient, or anything else you do. It can only go away and replaced with God's righteousness by being forgiven.
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Sigh!
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I renounced my sin before I got saved. But that is not how a person is made righteous (justified). That's what it means for justification to be free. It's very obvious that you are avoiding the argument. Repentance does not make justification not free. If it did then Paul was wrong when he wrote Romans 3:24.
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Ah, so you didn’t repent!

“Renouncing” is a LEGAL term. It doesn’t admit guilt and requires no sorrow for deeds done. It just says you LEGALLY separated yourself. If a man renounces his citizenship before authorities, he’s no longer a LEGAL citizen.

This explains your insistence on a position by which you legally claim free salvation.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Ah, so you didn’t repent!

“Renouncing” is a LEGAL term. It doesn’t admit guilt and requires no sorrow for deeds done. It just says you LEGALLY separated yourself. If a man renounces his citizenship before authorities, he’s no longer a LEGAL citizen.

This explains your insistence on a position by which you legally claim free salvation.
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You are correct in that renouncing one's sin does not make them righteous, any more than renouncing one's citizenship makes them no longer a citizen of the country they are a citizen of.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You are correct in that renouncing one's sin does not make them righteous, any more than renouncing one's citizenship makes them no longer a citizen of the country they are a citizen of.
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Incorrect. “Renunciation is a legal term for forfeiting or rejecting the right to something,” If a man renounces his citizenship he is no longer a citizen.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Nope, I’m not. I’m asking if you had to repent in your view and it seems that’s unnecessary, just a LEGAL renouncing sin (but not ceasing from it.)
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I did repent, but repentance is not what made me righteous. Nothing made me righteous except God's grace in the forgiveness of my sin and the giving of the Holy Spirit. That's what it means to be justified freely. But you keep denying this truth by hammering the necessity to obey the righteous requirements of God in faith. They are required but they in no way make justification/salvation not free as you are insisting. You get justified by faith all by itself "apart from works" Romans 4:6.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
just a LEGAL renouncing sin (but not ceasing from it.)
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If you could cease from sin you would not need the justification that is for free. That doesn't make repentance unnecessary. It makes it unnecessary for justification/salvation.

You have to be a disciple of Christ to be saved from damnation when he returns. But that in no way means justification is not free. It means continuing in faith as a disciple of Christ has personal cost. That's not a cost paid toward being made righteous. If it is that to a person then they are serving the works gospel that Paul said can not save.
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
just a LEGAL renouncing sin (but not ceasing from it.)
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I think you're getting confused here. The 'legal' nature of justification apart from works is that the believer is legally declared righteous in God's sight when they have faith in God, being officially absolved of all sin guilt, the debt of their sin nailed to the cross and marked 'Paid in Full', despite the fact that they will still sin in weakness and immaturity and ignorance. It's a legal absolution and removal of sin, not a literal one...yet. That will happen when our bodies are redeemed at the resurrection. In the meantime, we sin less and less as we grow as disciples of Christ, paying the cost of discipleship, not the cost of being declared righteous in God's sight.
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
I think you're getting confused here. The 'legal' nature of justification apart from works is that the believer is legally declared righteous in God's sight when they have faith in God, being officially absolved of all sin guilt, the debt of their sin nailed to the cross and marked 'Paid in Full', despite the fact that they will still sin in weakness and immaturity and ignorance. It's a legal absolution and removal of sin, not a literal one...yet. That will happen when our bodies are redeemed at the resurrection. In the meantime, we sin less and less as we grow as disciples of Christ, paying the cost of discipleship, not the cost of being declared righteous in God's sight.
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The word and action “renounce”is a legal one. It requires no remorse or feelings at all same as “I do” is a legal response.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
The word and action “renounce”is a legal one. It requires no remorse or feelings at all same as “I do” is a legal response.
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And your point is...?

You can define repentance and the renouncing of sin in whatever way you want. The point is, it in no way makes justification/salvation not free. What will cost a person is the disciplines of being a disciple of Christ. Walking by faith means giving up this world. Walking by faith is not what it costs in order to be justified. It's the cost of discipleship that you pay because you are ALREADY justified/saved for free by faith all by itself apart from any and all works of repentance and obedience.

Way back in the beginning of this thread I pointed out to you that you are not properly distinguishing between justification and salvation. Nothing you do can justify you, and so nothing is required in order to be justified. But you won't be saved when Jesus comes back if you have not paid the material cost of continuing in the faith that justified you.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I did repent, but repentance is not what made me righteous. Nothing made me righteous except God's grace in the forgiveness of my sin and the giving of the Holy Spirit. That's what it means to be justified freely. But you keep denying this truth by hammering the necessity to obey the righteous requirements of God in faith. They are required but they in no way make justification/salvation not free as you are insisting. You get justified by faith all by itself "apart from works" Romans 4:6.
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You said you merely renounced sin. Changing your story?
Jethro Bodine said:
And your point is...?

You can define repentance and the renouncing of sin in whatever way you want.
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I define words according to the accepted by all understanding. I don’t change the definition as that is dishonest. And those words are really different. No one in the Bible “renounced” sin.
Jethro Bodine said:
The point is, it in no way makes justification/salvation not free. What will cost a person is the disciplines of being a disciple of Christ. Walking by faith means giving up this world. Walking by faith is not what it costs in order to be justified. It's the cost of discipleship that you pay because you are ALREADY justified/saved for free by faith all by itself apart from any and all works of repentance and obedience.
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And if you refuse to pay the price but “ turn back” or “fall away from the faith” or “shipwreck your faith?”
Jethro Bodine said:
Way back in the beginning of this thread I pointed out to you that you are not properly distinguishing between justification and salvation.
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That’s cause Jesus doesn’t.
Jethro Bodine said:
Nothing you do can justify you, and so nothing is required in order to be justified. But you won't be saved when Jesus comes back if you have not paid the material cost of continuing in the faith that justified you.
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So free at first but the hidden costs are required. Hmmm
 
Dorothy Mae said:
No one in the Bible “renounced” sin.
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Oh, Dorothy, Dorothy...

Daniel 4:27
27Therefore, Your Majesty, be pleased to accept my advice: Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue.”
 
Dorothy Mae said:
And if you refuse to pay the price but “ turn back” or “fall away from the faith” or “shipwreck your faith?”
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When you fall away from faith you lose the justification in Christ you had. Not because you have to pay the cost of discipleship in order to be justified, but because refusing to pay the cost of discipleship is UNBELIEF.

Believing is the condition that must be met in order to be justified, not discipleship. That's what makes justification the free gift of God's grace the Bible says it is, but which you reject.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
That’s cause Jesus doesn’t.
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Then why are you arguing with scripture?

Romans 3:23-24
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Understand what I'm saying? If you want to categorically make the words justification and salvation identical and interchangeable with each other in any and all cases, then by your own argument we can insert the word 'saved' in the verse above in place of 'justified'. And so, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are <saved> freely by His grace". The very argument you are resisting!

When Jesus comes back the believer will be saved, not justified. He's already justified. At that time the final element of salvation, not justification, will be given to the believer (1 Peter 1:5). So you can't just categorically and without exception interchange the words 'justification' and 'salvation' as if they one and the same thing. But as I'm showing you, if you want to insist on that argument then we can switch out 'justified freely' with 'saved freely' in Romans 3:23-24 and your argument against God's free gift of salvation crumbles to pieces like a cheap Dollar Store cookie.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
So free at first but the hidden costs are required. Hmmm
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Costs are required, but not in order to be made righteous. That happens by having faith in God's forgiveness all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6). And, no, the 'hidden' costs required to be a disciple of Jesus are not hidden...unless you fail to recognize and weigh those costs! Jesus tells us to consider the cost of being a disciple of His. Those costs are only hidden if you don't heed Jesus' words. And those are not costs that must be paid in order to be made righteous. Faith does that all by itself apart from works.
 
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