Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

[Dorothy Mae]

Surely, some people aren't going to appreciate a free gift. But that does not mean righteousness is not a free gift received through believing, and not by working for it:

Jesus never said it was free. That’s the problem.

Romans 5:15-17
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Where is the word “free” there?

I value the free gift, even though I didn't work for it, because it's valuable to me that my sins are forgiven. After all these years as a Christian the primary thing that keeps me going is I do not want to give up the forgiveness of sin I have in Christ. It's my most valued, cherished possession. And I didn't pay a dime for it. I got it absolutely free for the asking. But there is the responsibility of guarding that which I have received as a free gift. And I think that's what you are addressing. That's why I say it's important to properly distinguish, when necessary, the difference between justification and salvation.

Well, if you don’t forgive others, you lost it.

2 Corinthians 11:4 (NASB)
4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Paul here implies that the Corinthians had accepted the true Gospel in contrast to the "different gospel" which the Corinthians believers had not accepted. Paul's thinking in terms of acceptance makes sense; for how does one receive the "second birth" if one does not accept the truths of the Gospel and the One they reveal?

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB)
13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

To the believers at Thessalonica, Paul wrote that they had "accepted" his word as the word of God, remarking that the Gospel had worked in those who had believed it. In this verse, Paul links receiving, believing and accepting together, giving no indication that the idea of accepting the Gospel and the Savior it proclaims was "totally unbiblical."

The concept “accept Jesus” hasn’t been invented yet.

This happens; for sure. But it shouldn't. Which is your point, I think, right? I agree. The full Gospel is rarely preached or shared these days, just a pared-down, product-marketing version that is, as you say, pretty deceitful.

That’s my point. Thank you!!

I would, though, make the distinction again that the holy, Christ-centered life that arises from spiritual regeneration is not salvation itself but merely the result, or product, of salvation. Christ our Savior is given to us as a gift, undeserved and impossible to earn, but the life that is produced as a consequence of his salvation of a person will entail sacrifice and suffering for his sake.

It will only entail sacrifice if we “accept” sacrifice.

It is "another Gospel," a false Gospel, that tells the lost sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil , that they can contribute to - that is, earn - their salvation.

No one thinks this. Straw man.

This is the message of many other false religions, but not of Christianity. Christ is offered to those who are "without strength" ignorant and at enmity with God They can do nothing to save themselves.

However, once a person is saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit , they possess in him all they need to live "godly in Christ Jesus." By the power of the Spirit, every believer can walk in joyful, holy fellowship with their Maker.

True but they must “WORK out their own salvation.”

In the man who would "work out his salvation," God must first "work in" the desire and ability to do His will, which He does by the Holy Spirit

As long as the man CHOOSES to obey. It’s far from automatic.

Both the believer's salvation and their transformation are God's for which He gets all the glory.

Except Jesus told MANY parables about the FAITHFUL servant who CHOOSES to please the Master.

Every child of God is merely a conduit, a vessel, in and through whom God manifests Himself (2 Timothy 2:21).

Not at all. We remain free moral agents who can revel or obey.

What God requires of His children is that they submit to Him, in love and humility walking by faith in His promises to them, working out what He works into them.

And obey in real choices.

But this mistakes what salvation is, it seems to me. Christ is a Person, not a product, a thing, we possess. He brings to new, spiritual life those who were spiritually separated from himself and infuses them with his life and power, transforming them in a way that is entirely unique, relying on his capacities to do so, not the born-again person's own strength, and will, and sacrifice. When a genuinely born-again person lives in sacrificial obedience to God, then, they are manifesting the Person of Christ, the Fruit of the indwelling Spirit, motivated by his love and joy to do so.

Is that what you see here and in church? If not, why not?

Salvation is an exchange: My old, self-centered life for a new life given to me in the Person of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9). In a sense, this exchange does cost me everything; for if I am to experience fully the reality of my second, spiritual birth I have to "die," by faith reckon myself crucified with Christ to my "old man3), but alive unto God by the power of the Holy Spirit. But this death to myself is accomplished by God through Christ for me.

All sounds good but the real meat is when you deny yourself (own desire VERY MUCH ALIVE) and do what He wants instead.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Surely. But that doesn't mean the gift isn't free. It is indeed free.

It was never free. None of the apostles preached a free gift nor lived as though they thought the free gift and nothing more is required.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Righteousness is free in my theology:

Romans 5:15-17
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Is anything free in your theology? It seems not.

Ah, the ad hominem at the end…

If you don’t forgive others you will not be forgiven. Do you believe nevertheless that you being forgiven is free and requires nothing from you including forgiving others?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Forgiveness comes through compassion, that is why the words are, He had compassion on us.

Matthew 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Matthew 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

And if compassion isn’t enough? If we don’t feel compassion are we off the hook when it comes to forgiveness?

Next parable of the good Samaritan having compassion also ( GO AND DO LIKWISE TO SHOW MERCY)




Luke 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

Luke 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Ah, the command to do likewise! A price we MUST pay!!

We see the same message always in all parables, is to show mercy, kindness and compassion ( this is belief in the same compassion Christ had on us)

Correct and there’s an unpleasant consequence if we fail.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.





Then we know God has forgiven us through compassion.

We know we have to be of that one mind of Christ, to have compassion.

And if we don’t, we are no longer forgiven!!

We know we cant shut up bowels of compassion, or the love of God is not dwelling in us.

Of course we can. We shouldn’t but we can. It’s just that there are consequences.

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

1 Peter 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:



1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Sounds good. No Holy Spirit in those who refuse to show compassion. That will NOT be a popular message though.

Charity is to put on Christ, the bond of perfectness.

Charity is not the giving away of all we possess, or of giving our body to be burned, it is kindness, it is being lowly meek, it is believing all things, bearing all things..

Ah, doing nothing at all for others but just having an attitude….like “be warm, be filled brother!” Very cheap!!

1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

If we tell ourselves we have compassion but actually do NOTHING AT ALL for others, we are fooling ourselves.

 

[Edward]

It was never free. None of the apostles preached a free gift nor lived as though they thought the free gift and nothing more is required.

Matthew 10:8
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give../

 

[Tenchi]

The concept “accept Jesus” hasn’t been invented yet.

Not sure what you mean. As Scripture itself indicates, the idea of accepting God's truth - and the Savior it presents - is as old as the New Testament.

It will only entail sacrifice if we “accept” sacrifice.

Okay...

No one thinks this. Straw man.

I wish this were true. Unfortunately, I've encountered quite a number of professing believers who espouse either an implicit or explicit works-salvation belief system.

True but they must “WORK out their own salvation.”

Which is nothing more than manifesting the work of God in them. It is the Fruit of the Spirit, after all, that grows out of the life of the submitted believer, not the fruit of self-effort.

As long as the man CHOOSES to obey. It’s far from automatic.

Yup. We aren't puppets.

Except Jesus told MANY parables about the FAITHFUL servant who CHOOSES to please the Master.

Yes, but the choice is not about how hard we will work for the Master but whether or not we will allow Him to work in and through us.

Not at all. We remain free moral agents who can revel or obey.

I was speaking of potential. We are temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19-20), branches in the Vine (John 15:1-5) and can be "vessels sanctified and meet for the Master's use" (2 Timothy 2:21), if we'll yield to His will and way throughout every day. The Christian life is not my doing for God but God doing in and through me. But, as you say, He won't force me to be a vessel for His use. If I want to sit idle, serving myself, or decide I'll try to produce the life of Christ in myself by my own power, well God will let me - and He'll let me suffer the consequences, too.

And obey in real choices.

To submit to God is an act of obedience that one chooses. It is not the only such choice but there is none more crucial to the "abundant life," I believe.

Is that what you see here and in church? If not, why not?

Only in some, I'm afraid. Why? Lack of real, proper discipleship, for one. And this lack leads to profound ignorance of God's truth and a resulting spiritual juvenility. This spiritual juvenility leads, in turn, to carnality, sensuality and deception. The "seeker-sensitive" church model has a lot of blame to shoulder for this state of affairs, in my view.

All sounds good but the real meat is when you deny yourself (own desire VERY MUCH ALIVE) and do what He wants instead.

No man (or woman) truly denies himself in the way God desires apart from His enabling power. There are lots of Christians working hard for God, sacrificing themselves in ministry, who are acting almost entirely from the flesh in doing so. And the result is corruption, as God promises, (Galatians 6:7-8) and more fleshliness, not anything truly Christ-centered and empowered.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not sure what you mean. As Scripture itself indicates, the idea of accepting God's truth - and the Savior it presents - is as old as the New Testament.

The scripture says we need to believe the truth, not condescend to accept it. Jesus used “accept” in reference to accepting John was the Elijah. That was a minor matter. Jesus otherwise requires surrender, lay down your life, deny yourself….strong verbs demanding strong action. Who preached a measly “accept” the truth as though there are other good options?

Okay...



I wish this were true. Unfortunately, I've encountered quite a number of professing believers who espouse either an implicit or explicit works-salvation belief system.

I admit there are some. Ive met 100s of Christians in person and never encountered that outside of Catholics. But seems to be some nevertheless.

Which is nothing more than manifesting the work of God in them. It is the Fruit of the Spirit, after all, that grows out of the life of the submitted believer, not the fruit of self-effort.

The tree must work to produce fruit. We must obey to have fruit. A life submitted means obeying as required. It doesn’t happen while we sleep.

Yup. We aren't puppets.



Yes, but the choice is not about how hard we will work for the Master but whether or not we will allow Him to work in and through us.

No, that comfortable but not scriptural. The examples are people received a command to do something and they could choose to obey or not. Those who obeyed found God worked in and through them. But only as they obeyed. We don’t have the power to “allow Him” to work through us. We aren’t the Master.

I was speaking of potential. We are temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19-20), branches in the Vine (John 15:1-5) and can be "vessels sanctified and meet for the Master's use" (2 Timothy 2:21), if we'll yield to His will and way throughout every day.

Incorrect concept. We don’t yield as those we were the Master. The servant doesn’t “yield.” The Master yields. The servant obeys or not.

The Christian life is not my doing for God but God doing in and through me. But, as you say, He won't force me to be a vessel for His use. If I want to sit idle, serving myself, or decide I'll try to produce the life of Christ in myself by my own power, well God will let me - and He'll let me suffer the consequences, too.

Actually the christian life IS doing for God and it’s very rewarding after the obedience.

To submit to God is an act of obedience that one chooses. It is not the only such choice but there is none more crucial to the "abundant life," I believe.

Yes. I agree. We submit and obey. Acting as if we think we are the Master deciding if we will agree and honor His “request” or not this time, we are not surrendered.

Only in some, I'm afraid. Why? Lack of real, proper discipleship, for one. And this lack leads to profound ignorance of God's truth and a resulting spiritual juvenility. This spiritual juvenility leads, in turn, to carnality, sensuality and deception. The "seeker-sensitive" church model has a lot of blame to shoulder for this state of affairs, in my view.

I very much agree. Nicely put.

No man (or woman) truly denies himself in the way God desires apart from His enabling power.

Why is this important? To the person who has denied themselves it feels very much your own choice. If you refuse, was Gods enabling power insufficient? I don’t load up upon God things He doesn’t insist He does. When God says to some, “well done” they won’t be expected to say in false humility, “it was all You” because that’s not the truth.

There are lots of Christians working hard for God, sacrificing themselves in ministry, who are acting almost entirely from the flesh in doing so.

True although I doubt they’re working for God. There’s a lot of admiring from man to work towards in the church. You’re up on stage now with mics and lights so everyone can admire your devotion.

And the result is corruption, as God promises, (Galatians 6:7-8) and more fleshliness, not anything truly Christ-centered and empowered.

Hollywood entered the church and now there are shows, not worship services.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Surely. But that doesn't mean the gift isn't free. It is indeed free.

No, it really isn’t. The examples of all the believers in the New Testament as well as their teachings tell us it costs a man everything. It’s surrender.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Do you think the sign of transformation is sinless perfection?

If all righteousness is passive reception, how come we aren’t all behaving that way? Why are there rules? Gods power to make us righteous inadequate or is it because we tell ourselves it’s all free and we needs do nothing at all?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Okay. Mind you, God did not give us His only Son in the way, or for the purposes for which, he gave a son to Abraham. Isaac was not a perfect atoning sacrifice sent to redeem mankind. Isaac was not born of a virgin. Isaac was not God in the flesh.

I have a thought to something Gordon wrote. Isaac was a free gift. All children come without their parents paying for their offspring. But everyone KNOWS that free child is very very expensive. That’s like salvation.

The Bible is crystal clear that salvation is by faith, totally apart from works:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 3:20 (NASB)
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 2:16 (NASB)
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

All true and marvelous. Of course there’s more to the matter.

Does an apple tree produce apples in order to be an apple tree? Or does it produce apples because it already is an apple tree?

Does the apple tree have to work to produce apples? Yes it does. It is not passive. Apples don’t come if the tree refuses to do what is necessary.

The "good fruit" of the life of Christ the Savior manifests in a person's living because he dwells within them by the Holy Spirit. It is NOT that a person manifests "good fruit" and THEN the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within them any more than that an apple tree produces apples and in order to be an apple tree. Being comes before doing.

It’s not that clear cut as doing sometimes results in being. It is sometimes the stingy heart that gives and finds generosity springs up instead of the stinginess that wa there. The fearful man who chooses to do something courageous despite his fear will find courage welling up that wasn’t there before.

When one truly believes a thing is so, it will inevitably manifest in one's conduct. If I really believe the rattle snake can fatally poison me with its bite, I won't try to pet it; if I believe the medicine the doctor has prescribed will relieve my illness, I'll consume it even if it tastes awful; if I believe walking every day is important to good health, I'll do so even if its miserable outside. But true belief must exist before the action that expresses it and is all that Scripture indicates is fundamentally required for salvation. Consider the thief on the cross who believed and was promised entrance into God's kingdom though he could do no good works.

Whatever James is saying, he can't be saying that works have a salvific power; for if he did, he would be in direct contradiction to the verses above that explicitly and repeatedly rule out works as necessary to salvation. At most, James is saying that works will follow inevitably from saving faith. But don't make "inevitable" the same as "necessary"; these are two different things. An apple tree will inevitably produce apples - if its well-nourished by the soil it's in, free of pests and disease, and gets plenty of water and sunlight. But if the apple tree is sick, or under-nourished, or caught in a drought, it may not produce apples. Does this mean the apple tree is not an apple tree? Only if you say that apples are necessary to being an apple tree rather than merely inevitable. This would be a silly thing to say, though, since apples only arise from an apple tree because it is an apple tree. It is just as silly to say that a saved person is saved because of their good works. The truth is that it is only because they are already saved that the "fruit of righteousness," the fruit of the indwelling Spirit, appears in their

James is saying we also have to choose. Both faith and works are our choice.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Was his justification payment owed him for beating his breast and humbling himself?

Would he have been justified if he’d done none of that?

 

[gordon777]

Was his justification payment owed him for beating his breast and humbling himself?

We are called to Christ, meek and lowly, to learn of His ways.

In the parables, the mans eyes not so much as lifted to Heaven, compared to the other who stood ( didn't have HIs eyes or heart lowly)

The word was never received without meekness, this is how we receive the word able to save our souls.

The humble in the sight of God are lifted up, as God gives grace to the humble. ( God resists the proud)

Who humbles themselves as a little child enters the Kingdom of Heaven. ( only)

Then unless we put on as the elect of God, humbleness of mind, we did nothing in every example of the whole new testament.





Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

 

[gordon777]

Okay. Mind you, God did not give us His only Son in the way, or for the purposes for which, he gave a son to Abraham. Isaac was not a perfect atoning sacrifice sent to redeem mankind. Isaac was not born of a virgin. Isaac was not God in the flesh. In any case, Abraham believed God's promise of a son and in due time received from God what He had promised. What does this have to do with what I wrote?

What has what you wrote, got to do with what God has written to all people about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and then Christ ?

The blessing from God, is that in Abrahams seed, all nations of the world will be blessed. ( because Abraham believed in the word of the Lord, and obeyed the voice of God.

Psalm 72, is the ending of the prayers of David. David through the Spirit of Christ, prays how the name ( of God) endures for ever, as all nations shall be blessed in Him. ( that is the continuation of the blessing of God to Abraham in Isaac.)

Romans 1 begins with tis same connected purpose, concerning the Son of God Jesus Christ, made of the seed of David ( according to the flesh) declared to be the Son of God with power ( of life) by the resurrection from the dead. ( As Abraham had believed God can resurrect the dead, which was told this was why Abraham received Isaac as a figure, that in Isaac shall his seed be called.)

Then by Christ ( rising from the dead) we receive grace ( as Abraham did) for the same obedience to the faith. ( all nations were blessed in Abraham and Isaac as they had believed the voice of the Lord and obeyed His voice)

This as told in Galatians 3, makes us completely connected to Abraham ( if we believe all of these testimonies) as we then are the same children of Abraham ( in the same faith of Abraham, which he had and obeyed the voice of God)






Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.


Psalm 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Hebrews 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[gordon777]

The Bible is crystal clear that salvation is by faith, totally apart from works:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5-7 (NASB)
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 3:20 (NASB)
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 2:16 (NASB)
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

If you want clarity, then you miss the ending of the chapter of Ephesians 2.

What we are told about Abraham, we have to believe in and follow. We are built upon that foundation. ( of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob.)

2 Timothy 1:3, confirms the very same ( which you show no sight of) that Apostle Paul shows we believe in God from the forefathers ( from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.)




Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.



2 Timothy 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;

 

[gordon777]

Does an apple tree produce apples in order to be an apple tree? Or does it produce apples because it already is an apple tree? The "good fruit" of the life of Christ the Savior manifests in a person's living because he dwells within them by the Holy Spirit. It is NOT that a person manifests "good fruit" and THEN the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within them any more than that an apple tree produces apples and in order to be an apple tree. Being comes before doing.

We were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree. ( we were wild by nature.) to partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.




Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?



Again in your list, you quoted Titus 3, but left out these teachings. ( how we were a wild olive tree and were grafted in contrary to nature into a good olive tree.)

Because we are commanded to now be gentle and meek to all men. As we were once ( a wild olive tree) foolish, disobedience, deceived, in lusts. but the kindness of our Saviour appeared, so we be ( grafted contrary to nature into the good olive tree) now obedient to the voice of the Lord ( as Abraham was)



Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

 

[gordon777]

But true belief must exist before the action that expresses it and is all that Scripture indicates is fundamentally required for salvation. Consider the thief on the cross who believed and was promised entrance into God's kingdom though he could do no good works.

Even Christ shows obedience of faith, how do you think you can speak against it.

This is the revelation of the mystery of God, it is the preaching of Jesus Christ ( who did works of faith) and all is made manifest by the scriptures of the prophets ( who you ignore about all coming from the faith of Abraham who offered his only begotten son to God for sacrifice) and now all is made known for the same obedience of faith.

Christ was made in the likeness of men ( of Abraham and Isaac and David according to the flesh) to humble Himself to become obedient to death, the death of the cross, and then God highly exalts the Son. ( just as Abraham believed and obeyed the voice of God.)




Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 

[gordon777]

Whatever James is saying, he can't be saying that works have a salvific power; for if he did, he would be in direct contradiction to the verses above that explicitly and repeatedly rule out works as necessary to salvation. At most, James is saying that works will follow inevitably from saving faith. But don't make "inevitable" the same as "necessary"; these are two different things. An apple tree will inevitably produce apples - if its well-nourished by the soil it's in, free of pests and disease, and gets plenty of water and sunlight. But if the apple tree is sick, or under-nourished, or caught in a drought, it may not produce apples. Does this mean the apple tree is not an apple tree? Only if you say that apples are necessary to being an apple tree rather than merely inevitable. This would be a silly thing to say, though, since apples only arise from an apple tree because it is an apple tree. It is just as silly to say that a saved person is saved because of their good works. The truth is that it is only because they are already saved that the "fruit of righteousness," the fruit of the indwelling Spirit, appears in their life.

??? Rebuked? No, I'm not. Quite the opposite, actually.

I don't ignore Scripture

The verses you shared did not rule out works of salvation, they all spoke of faith beginning with Abraham. You just ignore that, but cant, as I have brought it back again.

Look again at Romans 3, and of course they speak of Abraham, which was also the righteousness of God without the law. ( witnessed by the prophets, Abraham and Isaac.)

Romans 4 continues the message you are dancing away from. That the promise ( to Abraham) is sure to all the seed ( blessed all nations in Abraham.) not only those in the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, the father of us all. ( Abraham obeyed Gods voice to offer his only begotten son as told in James, as Christ clearly did to become obedient to the death of the cross that God began to show us in Abraham, and this is faith.)




Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,




All we are shown about Abraham is not in the law. Romans 4, also shows how Abraham received a seal of the righteousness of faith, being uncircumcised ( not in the law yet) to be a father of all them that believe, though they are uncircumcised also.

Then the last verses you quoted of Galatians 2, show we believe in Jesus Christ, we also believe in the faith of Abraham, (walking in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham) because if we seek to be justified and sin, we show we are making Christ to be the minister of sin. So, as 1 John 2 shows, we walk as Christ walked. ( for the love of God to be perfected in us.)





Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[gordon777]

Righteousness is free in my theology:

Romans 5:15-17
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Is anything free in your theology? It seems not.

First look at the words of the Saviour you say you believe in.


Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.




The free gift needs to be collected properly.

If we believe in the suffering that Christ had to endure for us, we have to walk the same path to meet Him..




Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

 

[gordon777]

. But everyone KNOWS that free child is very very expensive. That’s like salvation.

Salvation is expensive. It required the child of God, Jesus Christ to be cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgressions of the people for Gods Son to be stricken.

Then it requires an awakening in us, to be chosen ( as Christ is the chosen of God, His beloved.) as Apostle Paul was chosen. ( showing the same judgement of God to the Gentiles through the Spirit.) To suffer great things for the name of Christ. ( Paul bound and dies for the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.)




Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Matthew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Acts 21:13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[gordon777]

All true and marvelous. Of course there’s more to the matter.

Quoting scripture is not true or wonderful.

People deny the power thereof, which means they are to be turned away from:



2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.