Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

[gordon777]

Does the apple tree have to work to produce apples? Yes it does. It is not passive. Apples don’t come if the tree refuses to do what is necessary.

An apple tree might as well be the tree in the Garden of Eden.

The way to the tree of life was guarded:



Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.




The way into the holiest was not yet known while the first tabernacle was standing..



Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:




Jesus Christ is the way. ( His way, not a persons way, or any other way, or we are thieves and robbers.)

Hear what the Spirit says ( not hear mans earthly wisdom) to overcome this world of peoples reasonings, to eat of the tree of life, in the middle of the paradise of God. A pure river of water of life proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of it the tree of life for the healing of the nations. Blessed are they who do His commandments, to have right to the tree of life. The tree of life was always in the midst of the Garden, and a river went out from Eden to water the Garden.




John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Revelation 22:And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

 

[gordon777]

It’s not that clear cut as doing sometimes results in being. It is sometimes the stingy heart that gives and finds generosity springs up instead of the stinginess that wa there. The fearful man who chooses to do something courageous despite his fear will find courage welling up that wasn’t there before.

James is saying we also have to choose. Both faith and works are our choice.

Regarding your thread of the free gift. Although it is a free gift, we are debtors. we began in debt, ( to die) we remain in debt, ( we die if we continue in the flesh)

The Spirit is given to be led of God, receiving the Spirit for adoption to cry to the Father. Bought with a price to glorify God in our body and in our spirit, all are Gods.


Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.




All the reasoning that is man's wisdom, does not bring us to the faith of Christ, only His words can.

Comparing mans wisdom, with mans wisdom, produces not spiritual, but just more fleshy wisdom...




1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

 

[gordon777]

James is saying we also have to choose. Both faith and works are our choice.

James cant say anything other than what we are told.

James spoke of the words we have for faith, what we saw in Abraham and the other examples God has given to believe in. It is not a difficult concept to understand,. We cannot add or take from scripture, this is very strict, and everybody who speaks their own words, assumes they can speak greater than Gods words that save us, and they think thy are saving us then ?



James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[stovebolts]

Dorothy Mae
Good subject and I like some of the points you’ve made.

What if…. Instead of putting the focus on what’s being offered, we put the emphasis on what’s being received.

I believe that salvation is a response to the gospel. It’s that simple and it’s not a “ formula”. Simply put, it’s a “way”, Jesus “way” to be more precise.

There is a “ way” that leads to death and a “ way” that leads to life and Jesus teaches us and shows us by example what that “ way” looks like. We can either have the faith to embrace this “way” or we can reject it. So from my understanding, salvation is so much more than saying a heartfelt prayer. It’s about accepting and receiving What’s being offered which is so much more than a future promise because the promise is also for here, now. But we have to choose to live into those promises and have faith that the “ way” Jesus has showed us and taught us is the best possible “ way” to live and it really starts with baptism.

Gods not just in the business of “saving”, because his real work is transforming lives and this transformation aka sanctification is a testimony to the receiving and response to the “ways” of God.

 

[gordon777]

Did anyone else make any points, or the address should only be to Dorothy Mae ?

What is being offered is the preaching of the cross, how do you think that can be received, apart from seeing what is told here, that Christ speaks the words of God. ( the Spirit not by measure in the Son of God.)

Without the hearing of faith ( of the words of faith) how can anyone be benefitted without hearing the words of God ( Christ who speaks the words of God)




John 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.



So it is told, just above, that the Son tells the world what he saw and heard ( of the Father) of the words of God, and no man receives His testimony.

That testimony is the only one that saves anyone, and yet that testimony is not received by man.

What is received instead, is the testimony of man, mans words, mans reasonings, which does hot give faith. ( faith comes by hearing the word of God.)




John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

 

[gordon777]

If I need to sum up, what the verses above just said.

Christ laying HIs life down for us ( the preaching of the cross) are the witness that the Father sent Him. ( to save us from the death He bore for us) and He finished the works by rising from the dead to life, for us.

We do not have that witness in ourselves ( have not received His testimony) if we do not believe the word of Christ, how He had to die for us, to stop us dying ( in sin by not believing in Him) and man does not go to Him to have life.

Christ testifies He knows no love of God is in man, because He came in the Fathers name and they do not believe in Him, because they instead believe people who came in their own name only ( speaking their own words which save nobody, and receiving that testimony of man instead of God only)



1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ah, the ad hominem at the end…

You do not know what an ad hominem is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you don’t forgive others you will not be forgiven. Do you believe nevertheless that you being forgiven is free and requires nothing from you including forgiving others?

You forgive because you are ALREADY forgiven, for free, as a gift.

Luke 7:47
47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

Righteousness first. Acts of righteousness, done as a result of first being made righteous as a gift of God's grace, second.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.




The free gift needs to be collected properly.

If we believe in the suffering that Christ had to endure for us, we have to walk the same path to meet Him.

The person who doesn't walk the walk is showing they do not possess the free gift of righteousness, not failing to earn salvation.

So which is it, gordon777 , Dorothy Mae ? Is the habitually, unchanged, disobedient 'Christian' failing to earn salvation by not being good, or is he showing himself to not possess the gift of the righteousness of God?

 

[Tenchi]

What has what you wrote, got to do with what God has written to all people about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and then Christ ?

??? This is what you're interested in talking about but it isn't what I was talking about - or have any interest in talking about in this thread. And you still haven't answered my question: What does this have to do with what I wrote, which is what prompted you to go on about Abraham, etc.? Are you just blathering? Or was their some actual connection to what I wrote that you want to make?

If you want clarity, then you miss the ending of the chapter of Ephesians 2.

I have clarity. And I'm aware of the what the ending of Ephesians 2 is.

What we are told about Abraham, we have to believe in and follow. We are built upon that foundation. (

Nope. We are built upon the foundation of Christ and in him, not Abraham, we find all we need to be accepted by God: redemption, justification and sanctification.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (NASB)
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

1 Corinthians 3:11 (NASB)
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:3-7 (NASB)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

In any case, it's quite amazing to me to observe how, in the face of the many passages I cited to you that clearly, explicitly deny good works (ie. obedience to God) as necessary to salvation, that you make no concession to them whatever. It's as though, in your mind, God's word doesn't say what it says; you simply refuse to acknowledge its truth when it cramps your doctrinal style. You won't get at the Truth this way, gordon777.

We were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree. ( we were wild by nature.) to partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

This entirely misses the point of the apple tree analogy. I was using the analogy to make an ontological/logical point, not a doctrinal one. You aren't actually considering what I'm writing, are you?

Again in your list, you quoted Titus 3, but left out these teachings. ( how we were a wild olive tree and were grafted in contrary to nature into a good olive tree.)

Because we are commanded to now be gentle and meek to all men. As we were once ( a wild olive tree) foolish, disobedience, deceived, in lusts. but the kindness of our Saviour appeared, so we be ( grafted contrary to nature into the good olive tree) now obedient to the voice of the Lord ( as Abraham was)



Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Nowhere have I suggested born-again believers are free to disobey God. Quite the opposite. You're tilting at windmills here, gordon777.

Even Christ shows obedience of faith, how do you think you can speak against it.

See? This remark completely ignores my point and the example from Scripture that supports it. Why are you bothering to respond to my posts when you aren't actually engaging with them but are just knee-jerk reacting to them and gushing out largely unrelated ideas?

Christ was made in the likeness of men ( of Abraham and Isaac and David according to the flesh) to humble Himself to become obedient to death, the death of the cross, and then God highly exalts the Son. ( just as Abraham believed and obeyed the voice of God.)

Christ took on flesh, but he was not made in Abraham's likeness. Long before Abraham existed Christ existed (John 1:1-3), who is the Creator of All Things. Unlike Abraham, Jesus was the God-Man, perfectly in union with the Holy Spirit and God the Father, sharing in the deity of the Godhead. Abraham was just a sin-cursed man.

The verses you shared did not rule out works of salvation, they all spoke of faith beginning with Abraham. You just ignore that, but cant, as I have brought it back again.

They don't, actually. You are doing eisegesis rather than exegesis and coming up with a kooky line of thinking as a result.

And, again, you haven't actually engaged with what I wrote directly but have just leapt off my remarks into tangential ramblings about your Abrahamic hobby-horse doctrine.

Romans 4 continues the message you are dancing away from.

??? You have made it quite clear, gordon777, that you have no idea what my message is. How, then, do you know what I am or am not dancing away from?

Then the last verses you quoted of Galatians 2, show we believe in Jesus Christ, we also believe in the faith of Abraham, (walking in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham) because if we seek to be justified and sin, we show we are making Christ to be the minister of sin. So, as 1 John 2 shows, we walk as Christ walked. ( for the love of God to be perfected in us.)

You have knots scripturally that I haven't the time or desire to untangle for you. I will say this, though: I don't, as a born-again child of God "believe in the faith of Abraham." This is a nonsensical idea. I place my faith in Christ, not Abraham, for my salvation. Jesus is my Savior and Lord, not Abraham. There is only one Savior, gordon777, and Abraham ain't him. (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5)

The Bible is very clear that saints may (and do) sin. (1 Corinthians 3:1-3; 5; 6; 11; Galatians 3:1-3; 5:13-16; Romans 7:14-25; 1 John 1:8-10; Hebrews 5:12-13, etc.) Whatever convoluted arguments you put forward to assert otherwise, the declaration of God's word remains what it is, unchanged and plain. In fact, it is the very fact that you must multiply explanations so much and so unnecessarily that reveals the faultiness of your views. Consider the principle of Occham's Razor.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You forgive because you are ALREADY forgiven, for free, as a gift.

And the christian poster here who asked for help because she HAS NOT FORGIVEN? Does everyone in your church automatically forgive all others BECAUSE they are forgiven? Why did Jesus bother to teach that we MUST FORGIVE or else if it’s automatic and NO STRUGGLE or choice will occur????

Luke 7:47
47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

Notice the result is LOVE, not mercy.

Righteousness first. Acts of righteousness, done as a result of first being made righteous as a gift of God's grace, second.

By that method the church remains as unchristlike as it currently is. They’re all waiting to be “in the mood” oops, being “made righteous” so good works will flow without a struggle of the will. They’re waiting to WANT to do righteously.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The person who doesn't walk the walk is showing they do not possess the free gift of righteousness, not failing to earn salvation.

Ah,”walk the walk” is doing the WORKS associated with that change right? So you’re measuring salvation by outward works right? You sure you want to take that position? A person who doesn’t do the works isn’t saved so one had better do the works so they know they are saved. That’s your position right?

So which is it, gordon777 , Dorothy Mae ? Is the habitually, unchanged, disobedient 'Christian' failing to earn salvation by not being good, or is he showing himself to not possess the gift of the righteousness of God?

No one earns salvation. But like all received matters, it can be later lost.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You do not know what an ad hominem is.

Actually I do, better than those who employ it who often are blind until it’s used against them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Abraham did something other than receiving, he believed in God. ( God also was giving a free gift to Abraham, of a son.

God tempting Abraham to give his only son ( given as a free gift by God) blesses Abraham, to multiply his seed, ( as the stars of heaven as God had declared in the free gift of that son, Isaac) shows Gods word is fulfilled only through Abraham obeying the voice of the Lord.

God afterwards confirms the same blessing with Isaac,, because that Abraham obeyed Gods voice, kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes and His laws. ( similar to Phinehas executing the judgement of the Lord, and the Lord counting that to him for righteousness, to all generations for ever more. Psalm 106:30-31.)





Genesis 15;4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



This is how James is testifying to us, how we recognise faith by works. To know we need to do much more than believe there is one God. ( the devil spirit shows they know Jesus, who He is when risen.) Acts 19:15.)

The vain man has to know that their faith without works is dead, being ALONE.




Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Abraham we see was justified by offering his ( free gift from God) only son Isaac to God. This made faith perfect, fulfilling the scripture, of believing in God, and that counted as righteousness, and to be called the friend of God. That was the way we are all justified ( or will not be just, when we do unjustly, to not believe in the voice of God and obey Him as Abraham did.).....




James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.







Israel is then the very opposite example to Abraham believing in the salvation of the Lord.

God did many miracles and rescues for Israel, but it is testified, Israsel believed not in God, which is not trusting in His salvation. ( Abraham had trusted in the salvation of God, that in Abraham all nations woulds be blessed, by also obeying the commandments of God.)




Psalm 78:22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.




Then all counts on believing in these testimonies of God. To believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ( to remember also, that God required of Abraham, to sacrifice his only begotten son, the free gift given by God, which then would bless all nations.)

Also remembering that God had rained down manna upon Israel, but they did not believe in nor trust in Gods salvation.

Then Christ ( the only begotten Son of God) tells this same message to Israel, face to face, to believe in the Son, ( for salvation) as He is that bread of life. Their fathers had eaten manna but were dead. Christ is the bread which came down from Heaven, for a man to eat and not die.

Jesus shows how when a man eats His flesh, and drinks His blood, they dwell in Christ, and He in them. We are to believe and hear this testimony, that the Son lives by the Father, so he that eats the Son, shall likewise live by the Son.

Then we read how many of the disciples cant believe in this testimony of Christ, which is believing in the risen Lord Jesus Christ. ( to believe in our heart in life, and not death.) Christ confirms that these testimonies shared with u, are Spirit and life. ( faith comes by hearing them. Romans 10;17.)...




John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.




Everybody in he world knows and follows the teaching of it not being works of righteousness we have done, and that it is a free gift of God.

But that was not the whole [picture at all, it does not include what Abraham had believed in, what else Abraham did, and most important of all, how we are vain without doing the whole thing that Abraham did. ( will you know vain man, that faith without works is dead being alone ???????)


So the kindness and love of God appeared, ( Christ layed HIs life down for us, to eat His flesh and drink His blood, to have life in us, not death to follow.) It is not works of righteousness we did ( it is His sacrifice, as Abraham was willing to sacrifice.) and the Holy Ghost is shed on us through HIs blood shed. All things we are to believe in and follow, not parts of it, and it is then a faithful saying ( as just shared in James 2.) for they who believed in God ( as Abraham believed in God then also obeyed, to receive the blessing for all nations through Isaac to Christ) for us also to constantly, be careful to maintain good works, it is profitable not just for who the believers help, but also for their own selves. ( to not be vain man, not understanding that faith without works is dead being alone.) and to AVOID FOOLISH CONTENTIONS, AS THEY ARE UNPROFITABLE AND VAIN...



Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.



Tenchi, you are rebuked by Gods Word, if you have to ignore every word testified for you here, making out it is not clear, it will become more clear for you.

1. Your posts are TOO LONG.
2. Scripture clearly says God doesn’t tempt man so you are in error thinking He does.
3. Children are free to conceive and considered a gift by delighted parents but are nevertheless very expensive.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And the christian poster here who asked for help because she HAS NOT FORGIVEN? Does everyone in your church automatically forgive all others BECAUSE they are forgiven? Why did Jesus bother to teach that we MUST FORGIVE or else if it’s automatic and NO STRUGGLE or choice will occur????

Forgiveness of others is the SIGN that you possess the free gift of forgiveness of God for your sins. Forgiveness of others is not the way you get forgiven by God. That would be the very works gospel condemned in scripture.

And we're not talking about sinless perfection here. We're talking about the believer being characterized by the traits of the Spirit (forgiveness, self control, patience, etc.) and that being the sign that they possess the free gift of God's forgiveness. Forgiveness is in no way something someone does in order to secure justification/salvation. Believers do that BECAUSE they are forgiven in Christ, not to be forgiven in Christ.

Note in the Luke 7 passage I referenced in my earlier post that Jesus said it was her FAITH that saved her, not the obedience of her love.

Luke 7:47-50
47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

50And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

See it?
The obedience of her love was the result of ALREADY being forgiven/saved by faith in Jesus. Her obedience was NOT a condition for being forgiven.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually I do, better than those who employ it who often are blind until it’s used against them.

Well, really you don't. Google it. Then you'll see that simply asking if anything is free in your theology, and then suggesting it is not is not an ad hominem attack.

Is anything free in your theology? It seems not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Forgiveness of others is the SIGN that you possess the free gift of forgiveness of God for your sins. Forgiveness of others is not the way you get forgiven by God. That would be the very works gospel condemned in scripture.

Do you tell people struggling with forgiving others that they are NOT SAVED and their sins NOT YET FORGIVEN????? How much do you really believe your theory?

And we're not talking about sinless perfection here. We're talking about the believer being characterized by the traits of the Spirit (forgiveness, self control, patience, etc.) and that being the sign that they possess the free gift of God's forgiveness.

Jesus said no such thing.

Forgiveness is in no way something someone does in order to secure justification/salvation. Believers do that BECAUSE they are forgiven in Christ, not to be forgiven in Christ.

What do YOU tell those who struggle forgiving others??

Note in the Luke 7 passage I referenced in my earlier post that Jesus said it was her FAITH that saved her, not the obedience of her love.

Ah, what does that have to do with forgiving others?

Luke 7:47-50
47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

50And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

See it?

She was forgiven much and LOVED much as a result. What does that have to do with the matter?

The obedience of her love is the result of ALREADY being forgiven by faith in Jesus. Her obedience is NOT a condition for being forgiven.

Huh? She was forgiven the moment Jesus said she was. What obedience did she even do?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, really you don't. Google it. Then you'll see that simply asking if anything is free in your theology, and then suggesting it is not is not an ad hominem attack.

It is a personally insulting question that you apparently do not see. You attack the whole of my theology, not even in discussion, in order to insult. The answer requires a personal defense which is true in the ad hominem attack.

I could demonstrate it by using the same on you but I refuse to employ the personal attack. Best move on.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1. Your posts are TOO LONG.

True 'dat.
gordon777 , don't sermonize. Just talk to us in short, concise paragraphs.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

True 'dat.
gordon777 , don't sermonize. Just talk to us in short, concise paragraphs.

Some have called that strategy “Gish.” It’s a lecture, not a discussion.