Why do people pass out at faith healing services?

[Hitch]

I've already given my view ,I will add that I dont discount other folks experiences, they are important parts of christian life.

With an overview of healings in mind I reckon its important to note that God is kind and loving towards His own but the primary purpose of miracles is to confirm the Word.
That Word being - Messiah would come- Messiah did come, as promised, and he is Jesus Christ as recorded in the New Testament.

 

[Igor]

Up until last Sunday any answer I had on this subject would be pure speculation. no one was forced back people were touched lightly then left alone for the most part any overwhelming experiences happened as the healer stepped back there was a guy positioned behind in case. Read my other posts. i have no comparative experience of this only what I saw a couple of days ago. So far personally It has been a positive experience only and one i would repeat given the chance.Not al became overwhelmed but many did. I have no idea why I asked in the other section.

I was only trying to be encouraging being open about it all and telling you guys. Would you do the same too if you saw something like that yourself?

Hi Chris;

Your thread was encouraging and your testimony gives glory to God! The reason I started a new thread about this after reading your thread is that I was interested in people's viewpoints on this and wanted to learn more about it myself. I had a feeling there might be a lot of input and I didn't want to take away from your thread with my own questions. Just so everyone knows, this wasn't intended to imply anything against your experience at all!

Although I've attended a few services, I have never been part of a charismatic type church where things such as public, pre planned faith healings are common practice. But that's not to say I don't believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. I have been involved in two incidents where God healed someone. In fact, I guess a person watching what happened could have considered me a "faith healer" (except I reject that title because I know what happened was directly from God and had nothing to do with me!) because I was the one who laid on hands, anointed the person with oil (as James 5 instructs), and asked God to perform a miracle healing to demonstrate the truth of His word and His glory.

That is exactly what God did. The healings were instantaneous and complete. Doctors verified the people had indeed been cured and there was no medical explanation for how it happened, and the peoples' afflictions never came back. God used the experience in both people's lives to strengthen their faith to the point that both have spent many years now in full time work for our Lord, and many have come to know Christ through them. So the incidents have been clearly used by God for His glory and the furtherance of His kingdom.

Yet neither of the healings I was involved with involved anyone falling to the ground, crying out uncontrollably, speaking in tongues, or really much of anything else we see in the more dramatic "faith healing" services. Yet they were quite real. I think both of the people today would agree with me that the greatest thing they received from God in their healing was not the healing itself, but the glory that has been given to God as a result of it.

So Chris, the purpose of this thread was to learn points of view on why we see the incidents of people falling backward during these healings while other times, including the scriptural accounts of healings, this doesn't seem to happen. I think there has been a tremendous amount of good information and ideas shared here, but none of it was intended at all to disparage the miracle God performed for you. I apologize if it appeared this way, and want to encourage you to continue to share what God did for you with everyone around you so they can see His glory in it!

 

[handy]

I believe wholly in God's power to heal through faith as well. I've seen this happen several times. However, never at one of these big "faith healing" things.

I've shared this testimony before, but there are a lot of new people on this thread who may not have heard it, so I'll share it again...

A dear friend who I went to church with was getting to the point where she could no longer attend services. She had severe stomach problems, cramping so bad that she couldn't sit, stand, or lie down for any length of time. It was debilitating and there wasn't a thing anyone could do about it. She was in her 70's, and just was going downhill so rapidly that we thought that our dear sister in the Lord was close to being called home.

But, one evening during the Sunday evening service, she went up to the pastor as asked to be prayed over for healing. This church wasn't a "Pentecostal" or charismatic church, but the pastor would always allow for prayers such as this. He asked that anyone who wanted to come down and lay hands upon her as we prayed to do so. It just so happened that I was closest to her and my hand was laying right upon her side, near her stomach. As we prayed, I felt something...I can best describe this as a very hot thread being pulled out of the palm of my hand going into her body....not a very good explanation, but that's what it felt like. Anyway...whatever it was that the Spirit was doing...it worked!!!!! She felt fine after that, and lived, quite healthily for a number of years, and never missed a Sunday service due to illness again!

Now, it wasn't me, nor was it her, or the pastor...it was just something the Spirit did to heal her. I am reminded of the woman who was healed of bleeding when she touched the hem of Jesus' garment and He said, "Someone did touch Me, for I was aware that power had gone out of Me."(Luke 8:46) I think the thing that felt like a hot thread was the power that Jesus spoke of.

Genuine healing by the Spirit of God are spoken of all over the Scriptures and are recorded even today in medical journals. I know a lot of it is faked, but a lot are quite real.

And, I also believe...because the Scriptures tell us, that some are gifted with the gift of healing, and it has just become part of our vernacular to refer to these gifted people as "faith healers". Now one needn't be a faith healer to lay hands upon someone and have them be healed. I can certainly testify that I do NOT have the gift of healing...but there are those that do have this gift. I think it's a good idea, if you have a need for healing and know of someone who is so gifted, to go to that person and have them lay hands upon you and pray for you.

The problem is there are so many who are charlatans who take advantage of the sick...

Hey, the way one can know that a "faith healing" is truly from God is that whatever the problem was...it's done...it doesn't come back.

I don't have a problem with any kind of charismatic gift or miracle that is supported by the Scriptures...I do have a problem with something that is not spoken of in the Scriptures and is closely associated with paganism.

 

[farouk]

handy:

You're right about charlatans. And I don't clearly see it in the Bible as for today, either.

 

[Chris]

Hi Chris;

Your thread was encouraging and your testimony gives glory to God! The reason I started a new thread about this after reading your thread is that I was interested in people's viewpoints on this and wanted to learn more about it myself. I had a feeling there might be a lot of input and I didn't want to take away from your thread with my own questions. Just so everyone knows, this wasn't intended to imply anything against your experience at all!

Although I've attended a few services, I have never been part of a charismatic type church where things such as public, pre planned faith healings are common practice. But that's not to say I don't believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. I have been involved in two incidents where God healed someone. In fact, I guess a person watching what happened could have considered me a "faith healer" (except I reject that title because I know what happened was directly from God and had nothing to do with me!) because I was the one who laid on hands, anointed the person with oil (as James 5 instructs), and asked God to perform a miracle healing to demonstrate the truth of His word and His glory.

That is exactly what God did. The healings were instantaneous and complete. Doctors verified the people had indeed been cured and there was no medical explanation for how it happened, and the peoples' afflictions never came back. God used the experience in both people's lives to strengthen their faith to the point that both have spent many years now in full time work for our Lord, and many have come to know Christ through them. So the incidents have been clearly used by God for His glory and the furtherance of His kingdom.

Yet neither of the healings I was involved with involved anyone falling to the ground, crying out uncontrollably, speaking in tongues, or really much of anything else we see in the more dramatic "faith healing" services. Yet they were quite real. I think both of the people today would agree with me that the greatest thing they received from God in their healing was not the healing itself, but the glory that has been given to God as a result of it.

So Chris, the purpose of this thread was to learn points of view on why we see the incidents of people falling backward during these healings while other times, including the scriptural accounts of healings, this doesn't seem to happen. I think there has been a tremendous amount of good information and ideas shared here, but none of it was intended at all to disparage the miracle God performed for you. I apologize if it appeared this way, and want to encourage you to continue to share what God did for you with everyone around you so they can see His glory in it!

Its all good I have had the same question myself and by the time i asked it i then noticed your thread. I dont know why it happens I wish i knew myself. this saturday we wil be meeting at the churches mens breakfast with the pastors etc, I am sure I will get some answers then. i am confused as what you are. In the meantime with things you test the spirits and look at the by product of happenings. I f you see someone turn from sin or encourage others to do the same or go about praising god then maybe it is a good thing.

 

[reba]

reba:

Do you think falling over like that is a visual that is done to give reality to it?

I'm not even convinced from the Bible about whether the healing thing is even genuine for today. God can indeed heal, but I have doubts about the whole 'faith healing' movement.

I believe for most folks it is an emotional feel good. Something we can see, hear, feel, touch so to speak. I think most folks have their hearts in sorta the right place...then come along the profits ( not misspelled) and use our emotions. It makes for a wild service... folks well hang around to watch/be part of the SHOW.

The Scriptures talk often about falling on our faces before God. I have not yet read one about slain in the spirit. Once again IMO man has put his ideas before God.

Praise Him we worship in spirit and truth not our, even though God given, emotions.
Hope i answered your question...

 

[farouk]

I believe for most folks it is an emotional feel good. Something we can see, hear, feel, touch so to speak. I think most folks have their hearts in sorta the right place...then come along the profits ( not misspelled) and use our emotions. It makes for a wild service... folks well hang around to watch/be part of the SHOW.

The Scriptures talk often about falling on our faces before God. I have not yet read one about slain in the spirit. Once again IMO man has put his ideas before God.

Praise Him we worship in spirit and truth not our, even though God given, emotions.
Hope i answered your question...

reba:

Thanks for your comments.

I'm kind of skeptical about the visuals, too. It's supposed to be heart matter, and it's God who sees the heart, not us.

 

[reba]

I believe God can and does heal. Some times God uses a miracle some times chemo, a leg splint, some doctors. I believe all healing comes from God.

Back to my Dad again... Life long pastor he had hearing aids when he was older.... Good ol camp meeting! God blessed my parents with some great teaching and other blessings Dad didn't need his hearing aids !.... Well back to everyday life.... paying the bills traveling to visit the sick Sunday church wed Bible study, the church books... after a while the hearing loss returned..... I believe we can be in a place with the Lord where it is only Him and us ( please note i do not mean on a spot of dirt place) A place were we commune with Him and Him with us. Seems very few folks can stay in THAT place. We live in this world. Some day o someday

 

[pjt]

I think the term comes from the idea of " dieing to self' " there are plenty of verses that talk about that .

Some folks need a visual, they need to feel , some of us are more emotional then others.... I believe God reaches to each of us where we are. Some folks stay babies in the Lord some mature. Some of us stay in TEEN years! ( NO i am not saying those who 'are slain" are babies)

I my 60+ years of being in church i have seen what we would call good christian people fall under the power of God or slain in the spirit. I have also seen many fakers. I have seen/heard tongues faked, false traveling preachers etc. Many folks in the pews well get some idea about something or some one and they will fake/cheat/lie so they can appear to be right. The so wish to have something NEW from the Lord!

For me i have learned if it ain't in the Scripture i will be skeptical . Back to the Scripture for balance.

If being "slain in the spirit" is dying to self then that means it is a willful, ongoing (dying not die), decision made by the individual when they fall out. In other words the person chooses to fall out as a means of dying to self or to demonstrate they are dying to self.
There`s 2 problems with this:
1) the Bible does not teach to fall on the ground as a means of dying to self. Dying to self is a progressive internal act throughout one`s life of giving up one`s own desires to let God`s desires rule. It has nothing to do with falling on the ground.

2) It is my understanding that when people say they are "slain in the spirit" they are referring to an act of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, whether they realize it or not they are saying the Holy Spirit slays their spirit and they fall down like they are dead. Correct me if I am wrong but I don`t think one time in the Bible the word slain is used in association with the Holy Spirit. It is used with slaughters, murder, and death all in the negative, dark sense of the word. Being slain is not a good word or association in the Bible. So why do we put such a murderous word with the Holy Spirit? I don`t think it`s Godly or Biblically inspired.

I am not entirely against people falling if they get all excited about God, and I don`t discount people do feel great emotional surges when they fall out, but I do think people should call it like it is. It is an emotional release. It is not the Spirit coming with a sword slaying God`s people. It is people getting either spiritually or emotionally worked up and excited to the extent that the blood rushes to the head and causes them to fall on the ground. This can happen to Christians and nonChristians alike so it is not an indicator of one`s closeness or relationship with God. Anyone emotionally worked up enough can experience this. But basically, I just don`t think we should be calling the Holy Spirit a slayer nor do I think we should be calling ourselves a slayer. Dying to self does not have the violent association as slaying which is a word of violent murder.

 

[pjt]

reba:

Thanks for your comments.

I'm kind of skeptical about the visuals, too. It's supposed to be heart matter, and it's God who sees the heart, not us.

I agree with this farouk that the Bible always emphasizes the heart and that is what is most important to God. Therefore, it should likewise be most important to us and what we seek the most in our lives.

 

[Alabaster]

When I experienced this, I wasn't worked up emotionally or spiritually. It was simply a time decided by God to set me aside to experience something of His presence.

 

[reba]

If being "slain in the spirit" is dying to self then that means it is a willful, ongoing (dying not die), decision made by the individual when they fall out. In other words the person chooses to fall out as a means of dying to self or to demonstrate they are dying to self.
There`s 2 problems with this:
1) the Bible does not teach to fall on the ground as a means of dying to self. Dying to self is a progressive internal act throughout one`s life of giving up one`s own desires to let God`s desires rule. It has nothing to do with falling on the ground.

PJT i was referring to the verbage only the as the justification of the whole i jsut think that is why some thought up the term.
I agree with you!

2) It is my understanding that when people say they are "slain in the spirit" they are referring to an act of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, whether they realize it or not they are saying the Holy Spirit slays their spirit and they fall down like they are dead. Correct me if I am wrong but I don`t think one time in the Bible the word slain is used in association with the Holy Spirit. It is used with slaughters, murder, and death all in the negative, dark sense of the word. Being slain is not a good word or association in the Bible. So why do we put such a murderous word with the Holy Spirit? I don`t think it`s Godly or Biblically inspired.

For the most part i agree. Some well meaning folks people with good hearts get caught up in the emotions

I am not entirely against people falling if they get all excited about God, and I don`t discount people do feel great emotional surges when they fall out, but I do think people should call it like it is. It is an emotional release. It is not the Spirit coming with a sword slaying God`s people. It is people getting either spiritually or emotionally worked up and excited to the extent that the blood rushes to the head and causes them to fall on the ground. This can happen to Christians and nonChristians alike so it is not an indicator of one`s closeness or relationship with God. Anyone emotionally worked up enough can experience this. But basically, I just don`t think we should be calling the Holy Spirit a slayer nor do I think we should be calling ourselves a slayer. Dying to self does not have the violent association as slaying which is a word of violent murder.

YUP

 

[Chris]

watch this and make your own mind up right at the end.

YouTube - Pastor Andrew Kubala - Healing Prayer

dont read the comments under it if you don't want to read bad language and anti christian stuff.

 

[theophilus3213]

Hi PJT,
I agree with you that calling the experience of God’s love coming upon and entering into a person in such a powerful way that they become unconscious, and then waking up and feeling Gods intense love in every cell of their body being ‘slain’ in the spirit is wrong. I call it that because that is what the Pentecostal churches called it while I was growing up. And unfortunately the phrase has come to be the phrase that is used when someone wants to tell someone that they had this experience. I have always wondered why they called it that. My guess is that because people fall down during this experience; just like someone does when the die, that someone observing the phenomenon said that they looked like they were killed by the Holy Spirit. I do not know.
Now you state: ‘There is nothing to indicate the Holy Spirit is a slayer or
violent in nature†Please read Acts Chapter 5. There you will read how that Ananias and his wife lied to the Holy Spirit and they fell down dead! In this passage it can be inferred that it was the Holy Spirit who killed them. These two people were literally slain by the Holy Spirit. God is not to be trifled with! He is the ‘Lion of the tribe of Judah’. And He is not a tame lion! Anyone who
reads the Bible even one time will see that God is fond of striking people dead when they displease Him! We are to Fear God who:
1. Slew the firstborn n Egypt. (Ex 11:4-8,12:29-30)
2. Killed Nadab and Abihu for offering “strange fire†before the Lord. (God burned them alive, and did not permit arron to morn for them. Lev 10:1-6. )
3. Killed Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, their wives and children, and all that followed them for challenging the authority of Moses and Arron. (God caused the earth to open up and swallow them up alive. And caused a fire to burn up two hundred and fifty men. (Numb 16:1-35)
4. Gave Joshua, Gideon, Barak, Sampson, Saul, David, and many others the power to slay thousands of people as judgment for their sins.
5. Killed Uzza because he reached out his hand (not being a Levi) to steady the ark of the covenant when the oxen stumbled. (II Sam 6:6-7)
6. Killed king David’s first-born son because he had murdered Uriah the Hitite and committed adultery with his wife. (II Sam 12:1-22)
7. Incised David to number Israel so that He could kill 70.00 Israelite’s. (II Sam 24:1-17)
8. Killed 50,070 men just for looking into the ark of the covenant or ark of the Lord. (I Sam 6:19-20)
9. Caused King Jerobaom’s arm to shrivel up when he stretched it out against a man of God. (I Kings 13:4)
10. Killed the man of god for eating and drinking in a city that He told him not to eat and drink in. (I Kings 13:7-22)
11. Killed 100 men to prove that Elijah was a man of God. (II Kings 1:9-12)
12. Killed some youths for mocking Elisha (He used 2 bear’s. II Kings 2:23-25)
13. Turned Miriam into a leper for 7 day’s for rebuking her brother. (Numb 12:1-16)
14. Killed Er, the firstborn of Judah, who was wicked in the sight of the LORD; so He (i.e. God) killed him. (1 Chron 2:3)
14. Killed Ananias and saphira for lying too Him. (Acts 13:6-11)
15. Killed Herod because He did not give praise too God. (Acts 12:19-23)
16. Struck Elymas with blindness because he opposed Paul. (Acts 13:6-11)
17. Make’s people weak, sick, or dead for partaking of the Lord’s supper in an unworthy manner. (I Cor 11:20-30)
18. Pours out His wrath upon the world during the tribulation. (Rev.)
19. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb 11:31)
God is not some gentle pussy cat that sits up in heaven and only does good things to His creation! He is a God who has given us a moral law to obey and He punishes people who disobey it! One of the major problems with the modern churches is that they preach that the ‘lion’ has been declawed, and He has no teeth so you do not have to fear Him at all. This is a false doctrine! The Bible says: Ps 2:11-12
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. KJV
Ps 25:14
14 The secret of the LORD is with those who fear Him, And He will show them His covenant. NKJV
Ps 33:8
Let all the earth fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. NKJV
Ps 33:18
18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear Him, On those who hope in His mercy, NKJV
7 The angel of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him, And delivers them. NKJV
Ps 34:9-10
9 Oh, fear the LORD, you His saints! There is no want to those who fear Him. 10 The young lions lack and suffer hunger; But those who seek the LORD shall not lack any good thing. NKJV
Ps 111:10
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever. NKJV
Ps 115:11
11 You who fear the LORD, trust in the LORD; He is their help and their shield. NKJV
Ps 115:13
3 He will bless those who fear the LORD, Both small and great. NKJV
Prov 1:7
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. NKJV
Prov 3:7-8
Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil. 8 It will be health to your flesh, And strength to your bones. NKJV
Prov 9:10
10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. NKJV
Prov 10:27
27 The fear of the LORD prolongs days, But the years of the wicked will be shortened. NKJV
Prov 14:26-27
26 In the fear of the LORD there is strong confidence, And His children will have a place of refuge. 27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, To turn one away from the snares of death. NKJV
Prov 15:16
6 Better is a little with the fear of the LORD, Than great treasure with trouble. NKJV
Prov 15:33
33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom, And before honor is humility. NKJV

Prov 16:6
6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil. NKJV

Prov 24:21
21 My son, fear the LORD and the king; Do not associate with those given to change; NKJV

Prov 19:23
23 The fear of the LORD leads to life, And he who has it will abide in satisfaction; He will not be visited with evil. NKJV
Then you state: ‘There is nothing to indicate the Holy Spirit is a slayer or
violent in nature’. What has been written above states this as well as this
scripture:

Heb 4:13
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the
heart. KJV

Also remember that Jesus calls us to die in order that we may live. Consider the following scriptures:

Gal 5:24
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. KJV

Matt 10:37-39
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. KJV

Luke 9:23-25
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? KJV

Eph 4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. KJV

Col 3:8-10
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy
communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: KJV
One of the things that the Holy Spirit does is to kill the old nature and give us a new one. God is a God of love, law, judgment, justice, punishment, mercy, grace, compassion, long suffering, kind, and a multitude of other things.

Learn to fear God!

Shalom

 

[theophilus3213]

I believe wholly in God's power to heal through faith as well. I've seen this happen several times. However, never at one of these big "faith healing" things.

I've shared this testimony before, but there are a lot of new people on this thread who may not have heard it, so I'll share it again...

A dear friend who I went to church with was getting to the point where she could no longer attend services. She had severe stomach problems, cramping so bad that she couldn't sit, stand, or lie down for any length of time. It was debilitating and there wasn't a thing anyone could do about it. She was in her 70's, and just was going downhill so rapidly that we thought that our dear sister in the Lord was close to being called home.

But, one evening during the Sunday evening service, she went up to the pastor as asked to be prayed over for healing. This church wasn't a "Pentecostal" or charismatic church, but the pastor would always allow for prayers such as this. He asked that anyone who wanted to come down and lay hands upon her as we prayed to do so. It just so happened that I was closest to her and my hand was laying right upon her side, near her stomach. As we prayed, I felt something...I can best describe this as a very hot thread being pulled out of the palm of my hand going into her body....not a very good explanation, but that's what it felt like. Anyway...whatever it was that the Spirit was doing...it worked!!!!! She felt fine after that, and lived, quite healthily for a number of years, and never missed a Sunday service due to illness again!

Now, it wasn't me, nor was it her, or the pastor...it was just something the Spirit did to heal her. I am reminded of the woman who was healed of bleeding when she touched the hem of Jesus' garment and He said, "Someone did touch Me, for I was aware that power had gone out of Me."(Luke 8:46) I think the thing that felt like a hot thread was the power that Jesus spoke of.

Genuine healing by the Spirit of God are spoken of all over the Scriptures and are recorded even today in medical journals. I know a lot of it is faked, but a lot are quite real.

And, I also believe...because the Scriptures tell us, that some are gifted with the gift of healing, and it has just become part of our vernacular to refer to these gifted people as "faith healers". Now one needn't be a faith healer to lay hands upon someone and have them be healed. I can certainly testify that I do NOT have the gift of healing...but there are those that do have this gift. I think it's a good idea, if you have a need for healing and know of someone who is so gifted, to go to that person and have them lay hands upon you and pray for you.

The problem is there are so many who are charlatans who take advantage of the sick...

Hey, the way one can know that a "faith healing" is truly from God is that whatever the problem was...it's done...it doesn't come back.

I don't have a problem with any kind of charismatic gift or miracle that is supported by the Scriptures...I do have a problem with something that is not spoken of in the Scriptures and is closely associated with paganism.

Just because satan mimics something that God does does not mean that God does not do that thing!

For example: When someone speakes in tongues, the Holy Spirit is speaking through them in a language that is unknown to the one speaking it. And it only happens when someone is possesed by the Holy Spirit. People that are demon posessed speak in unknown languages as well. This is because the demon that is in control of their body is speaking trhough them in a laguage it understands, but ther person does not. The fact that demons speak through people in unknown laguages does not mean that God does not speak through people in foreign languages. One day I spoke in toungues and a Mexican man heard me and he said that I spoke perfect spanish. Now, I only know about 30 words in the spanish language. But Yet this man heard me speak in perfect spanish!

and once again: The bible does not give us a list of miricales that God performs and then tells us that these are the miracles that God performs and He does no other miriacles. God's power and imagination are not limited to what has been recorded in the bible!

The bible says:

John 14:12-14

12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be,glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. NKJV

This passage says that we will do greater miracles then Jesus did if we will only believe! Now this also means that we will perform miracles that Jesus did not perform! (at least if He did do them they have not been recorded.)

Mark 16:17-18

17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; (not be tormented by them) they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." NKJV

Luke 10:17-20

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord,
even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven." NKJV

Mark 9:17-29
17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, "Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit. 18 And wherever he seizes him, he throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast him out, but they could not." 19 He answered him and said, "O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How
long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me." 20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth. 21 So He asked his father, "How long has this been happening to him?" And he said, "From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help
us." 23 Jesus said to him, "If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes."

Matt 19:26
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. KJV

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible. KJV

Luke 18:27
And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
KJV

Now if nothing is impossible for God; then how can anyone even think that God cannot or will not 'slay people in the Spirit?' The Bible makes it plain that God is not limited in any way; (with the excepton that He will not lie, and He cannot make a rock so big that He cannot lift it.) This being true, let us settle the issue by saying that God does in fact 'slay' people in the Spirit. It is a genuine experiance in God that produces a closer relationship with God. There is absolutely no 'down' side to this experiance! Those of us that have experianced it have benifited from it imensly! The fruit of this experiance is always extreemly positive; never negative! So how can it possibly be wrong!

 

[Igor]

watch this and make your own mind up right at the end.

YouTube - Pastor Andrew Kubala - Healing Prayer

dont read the comments under it if you don't want to read bad language and anti christian stuff.

Uh oh. Chris, I watched that video you linked to and it was like dejavu (how do you spell that?) for me. I don’t know how to link to specific posts within a thread so I’ll just quote what I said in another thread a while back. These quotes are from this thread: http://www.christianforums.net/f15/doubts-about-reported-healings-supernatural-accounts-33194/

This is post #14

Re: Doubts about reported healings and supernatural accounts.

Originally Posted by ynnebulator
I have been a Christian for 25 + years.
Over this time I have seen a LOT of claims of healings done in Jesus name.
Usually these healings cannot be proven and are of a trivial nature, like legs supposedly growing out etc.
Yet when it come to REAL needs like people having cancer etc, these healings are no where to be seen in my immediate life.
Though I do believe in God,and I do believe that He heals, all I can say that I have ever seen is cheap side show tricks by noisy "evangelists".

I have a friend who is ALWAYS advocating healings on Facebook, and for some reason it really annoys me because usually they are the phoney healings I earlier refered too.
Am I too synical these days, or has my discernment increased? Dillemma !!!

Yes, to get back on topic, there are a lot of sideshow tricks out there. It is not cynical to recognize them for what they are. As far as exposing them, I guess that depends on what you feel lead to do. As a church leader I removed a guy and his friend that visited our youth group one night and pulled off a faked healing of an unequal leg suddenly being grown longer to match the other one. As the leader, it was my responsibility to expose the trickery to the others in attendance so that they would not be deceived by a liar who only wanted to make himself look all high and mighty.

So does that mean that I don't have faith? Does it mean I doubt God's ability to heal miraculously? I don't know. Someone please tell me.

A few weeks before the removal of the faker, we had a person with an injury who was told by his doctors that he would never run again and would be lucky if he could ever walk again without crutches. I knew he and his family well, so knew this to be true. Out of the blue, during an unrelated Bible study, he confronted me and cited the passage about healing in James: "Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.." (James 5: 14-15, NIV) He said he wanted us to do this and he believed God would heal him.

That was the first time I had ever been confronted with a request like that, and this was in a church where this kind of thing had never been done before. But the scripture in James was right there in front of me, clear as could be. Do I deny the scripture and make excuses? Or do I have faith in God to reward the faith of the injured person like He said He would?

We got some oil, got the leadership (elders) together, and followed God's word. There was no show needed. No screaming and hitting him in the head and knocking him on the floor. Not even any speaking in tongues. We just calmly and reverently followed the instructions in James to the letter.

The injury was healed right then and there. The guy left his crutches at church and ran (not walked or hobbled, but ran) home to tell his parents what had happened. The next day his parents took him to the (secular) doctor, who confirmed that the injury was healed, and that there was no possible medical explanation for why this happened. This was many years ago, and the injury never returned.

God used the incident to strengthen the faith of everyone that was involved, resulting in many people being saved and others being strengthened over the years through this.

So, are you being cynical and lacking faith when you see the fakers for the liars that they are? I don't know. Am I cynical and lacking faith for exposing and removing the fakes from my group just a few short weeks after participating in the real healing, the memory of which still strengthens me to this day? Someone please tell me.

And post #20

Re: Doubts about reported healings and supernatural accounts.

Originally Posted by theLords
If you are sincerely asking:

James 3:1 (NIV)
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

You have given a beautiful testimony of what Godly discernment looks like. As the leader you are held to a higher standard and bear a greater responsibility.

Or is your question rhetorical?

Why was the leg 'healing' a fake one? How did you know? How did those boys react when you exposed them?
Thanks!

Yes, it was a rhetorical question, but thanks for the correct and scriptural answer.

I suspected the leg healing was going to be fake because of a combination of things. It was just too coincidental that they both knew each other, neither had attended my church before even though they were in their early 20's and had prior oportunities, had chosen this particular time to show up, and one of them just happened to want to be "healed". (I learned later that the news of the real healing had spread rather rapidly. This is probably what attracted them to a place where they thought their show would be appreciated.) So when the one of them that was doing the anointing and praying told us we all had to close our eyes to pray with him, I secretly kept mine open and watched. The one being healed (who had been sitting on the floor with his legs stretched out, one obviously a couple of inches shorter than the other) simply rotated his hips the other way to make both legs equal. Then I knew my suspicions had been correct.

They reacted by telling me that I just didn't have faith to believe God could perform a healing.

Chris, I know you have testified as to God healing you. I think that is exactly what happened. God healed you. And He did it because of your faith in Him. I could be totally wrong, but I think it had nothing to to with Andrew Kubala. I have a hard time understanding why someone such as Andrew Kubala (or anyone else) would produce a video showing "faith healings" of a nature that can be so easily faked even by a couple of young adults just out of high school. It just seems someone in his position would also be aware of how easy these "short leg" healings are to fake, and would have picked a more beleivable instance of healing for the video!

I guess I felt I just had to be up front with everyone about my previous comments in the other thread when I found myself watching the very same "healings" taking place on Kubala's video. I think we all need to be sure to put our faith directly in God (as it apears Chris has done) instead of in a person.

 

[Chris]

Is all good guys this subject was always going to divide everyone opinion wise. If you want to polarize people on opinion the supernatural stuff will do it better than any other subject i know. Its no different to than trying to explain to someone a living god has is inside you or become a part of you. The story of our lives as Christians sometimes trying to explain the unexplainable. I only ever intended to tell what I saw not so much take a position of utter faith in the healer. Only god does that stuff.

If what he is doing brings anyone to salvation isn't it worth supporting. I saw that happen. I can testify I saw commitments, or at least the start of some.

 

[pjt]

Samuel, I never stated that God does not exercise wrath and judgement on man. My statement was God sent the Holy Spirit to be a Comforter and Helper to His people not a slayer.

Moreover, I fully agree with you that God should be feared. I don`t interpret that as the modern day interpretation of mutual respect like for a peer. I interpret it as fear like knowing the power and potential God has over our lives and eternity. Nevertheless, for a child of God it is a healthy fear but for a nonChristian it should be a terrifying fear.

As for Acts 5, I always read that as God killing Ananias and Sapphira, but I can see how it could be interpreted as the Holy Spirit. For the sake of argument lets say it was the Holy Spirit that killed them. This killing was taking their lives because of their sins. It was a punishment not a reward. Moreover, the examples you gave me of killing in the Bible are killing like slaughtering because someone has displeased God. Again, they were punishments not blessings. So if you are trying to make the case that God does slay, then from the examples given one would have to conclude being "slain in the spirit" is a punishment from God rather than a blessing because every time God kills it is because some displeased Him in a very gross manner. I know that is not what you are trying to state but if the only scriptures you can back up with slaying the spirit are God killing someone who greatly displeased Him, then it sort of makes the case weak, in my opinion.

Again, I don`t disbelieve a person can have a spiritual experience and excitement that leads to falling out. I don`t disbelieve you felt great love from God. But I just don`t think we need to be saying the Holy Spirit is a slayer. Jesus did not send the Holy Spirit to slay His people but help and comfort us.

If you drop that term, I think we can have a lot more in agreement. If you want to hold on to and defend the term, then we`ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[theophilus3213]

Samuel, I never stated that God does not exercise wrath and judgement on man. My statement was God sent the Holy Spirit to be a Comforter and Helper to His people not a slayer.

Moreover, I fully agree with you that God should be feared. I don`t interpret that as the modern day interpretation of mutual respect like for a peer. I interpret it as fear like knowing the power and potential God has over our lives and eternity. Nevertheless, for a child of God it is a healthy fear but for a nonChristian it should be a terrifying fear.

As for Acts 5, I always read that as God killing Ananias and Sapphira, but I can see how it could be interpreted as the Holy Spirit. For the sake of argument lets say it was the Holy Spirit that killed them. This killing was taking their lives because of their sins. It was a punishment not a reward. Moreover, the examples you gave me of killing in the Bible are killing like slaughtering because someone has displeased God. Again, they were punishments not blessings. So if you are trying to make the case that God does slay, then from the examples given one would have to conclude being "slain in the spirit" is a punishment from God rather than a blessing because every time God kills it is because some displeased Him in a very gross manner. I know that is not what you are trying to state but if the only scriptures you can back up with slaying the spirit are God killing someone who greatly displeased Him, then it sort of makes the case weak, in my opinion.

Again, I don`t disbelieve a person can have a spiritual experience and excitement that leads to falling out. I don`t disbelieve you felt great love from God. But I just don`t think we need to be saying the Holy Spirit is a slayer. Jesus did not send the Holy Spirit to slay His people but help and comfort us.

If you drop that term, I think we can have a lot more in agreement. If you want to hold on to and defend the term, then we`ll just have to agree to disagree.

My dear brother,

I only use the phrase 'slain in the spirit' because it is the phrase that is used in christianity to describe the experiance. I dont personlly like the phrase, but there is not another phrase that is used to describe it, and this prhase is widly used and understood by most of christianity.

But the Holy Spirit is the third part of the Thrinity of God. So He is God! Therefore what the Holy Spirit does is what God does and vise versa. So if the bible tells us that God kills people, it is also telling us that the Holy Spirit kills people. God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit always act in unison! There is no division, or disunity between the three! Just as we are composed of three seperat parts, (i.e. We are a soul, we live in a body, and we have a spirit. These three parts of us make up who we are.) and each one of our parts acts in perfect unity with the other. So also the three persons of the trinity operate in perfect union with each other.

So while the Holy Spirit is indeed our Comforter and Helper and teacher, etc, He is also a slayer as the bible makes it plain that God slays people.

I know that this truth is not taught in churches largly because if pastors told their congregations these things it would frighten many of them away and they would lose a lot of people. This is also the reason that pastors dont teach people to fear God! They are more interested in maintaining as many people as possible so they can get as much money as possible from their congregations. So they willfully 'tickle' their ears with doctrines that please them rather than telling them the truth!

May God bless you my brother.

 

[pjt]

My dear brother,

I only use the phrase 'slain in the spirit' because it is the phrase that is used in christianity to describe the experiance. I dont personlly like the phrase, but there is not another phrase that is used to describe it, and this prhase is widly used and understood by most of christianity.

But the Holy Spirit is the third part of the Thrinity of God. So He is God! Therefore what the Holy Spirit does is what God does and vise versa. So if the bible tells us that God kills people, it is also telling us that the Holy Spirit kills people. God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit always act in unison! There is no division, or disunity between the three! Just as we are composed of three seperat parts, (i.e. We are a soul, we live in a body, and we have a spirit. These three parts of us make up who we are.) and each one of our parts acts in perfect unity with the other. So also the three persons of the trinity operate in perfect union with each other.

So while the Holy Spirit is indeed our Comforter and Helper and teacher, etc, He is also a slayer as the bible makes it plain that God slays people.

I know that this truth is not taught in churches largly because if pastors told their congregations these things it would frighten many of them away and they would lose a lot of people. This is also the reason that pastors dont teach people to fear God! They are more interested in maintaining as many people as possible so they can get as much money as possible from their congregations. So they willfully 'tickle' their ears with doctrines that please them rather than telling them the truth!

May God bless you my brother.

So you think although the term is not the best terminology to use, it still is representative of who the Holy Spirit is therefore you do use it? In other words you don`t think the term entirely misrepresents the Holy Spirit? Is that correct?