Why do people pass out at faith healing services?

[reba]

Sit on your chair hold your feet out straight move them ever so slightly to the right or left.

I am old enough to remember the 2 tent system at healing services ( Roberts and others) the truly ill were in the back tent....

Yes God can and does heal.

 

[handy]

I really don't have a lot of time today, but I did want to respond to Samuel ....

John 14:12-14

12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be,glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. NKJV

This passage says that we will do greater miracles then Jesus did if we will only believe! Now this also means that we will perform miracles that Jesus did not perform! (at least if He did do them they have not been recorded.)

This being true, let us settle the issue by saying that God does in fact 'slay' people in the Spirit. It is a genuine experiance in God that produces a closer relationship with God. There is absolutely no 'down' side to this experiance! Those of us that have experianced it have benifited from it imensly! The fruit of this experiance is always extreemly positive; never negative! So how can it possibly be wrong!

I hate to sound argumentative...not my purpose at all...but I do disagree with a few things here, which is why I'm still not ready to just "settle the issue by saying that God does in fact 'slay' people in the Spirit".

First, I don't see this particular phenomenon being a greater miracle than what Jesus has done, not by a long shot.

Secondly, I know first hand that there is a downside to this...I worked for an Assembly of God church for over 12 years...I've known many people who testified about how great being slain in the spirit was...how it supposedly drew them closer and closer to God, they loved the experience...but for too many of these good folks (and they were good friends whose faith I've never doubted) the experience trumped just solid growth in the Lord...they loved to go after the "experience" of shouting out in tongues, being slain in the spirit, being all jazzed up after healing services...but then when things would go bad, and pressures of the world came around and the experiences weren't forthcoming...they lost faith. I personally know many people from that church alone...a church which had great "Spirit filled services with altar calls that lasted for hours" whose faith is now shipwrecked and they do not profess Christ at all.

Many who read my posts here may have picked up that I have a real problem with the whole "altar call, say the sinner's prayer" form of evangelism for this reason...again, everything is down to these feel good experiences, but they don't always produce lasting faith...more often than not they don't. That God can save some during these kinds of events is certainly true...my own re-birth came after an Assembly of God revival...but it was more in spite of rather than because of the "manifestations" (people shrieking in tongues, women rolling around so that their undies were showing, folks falling over).

So, perhaps for someone in the thick of things, it looks as if there is no downside, that it's all positive. But, I do see a downside, I do see negatives...I've seen people, when these experiences are not forthcoming in life, just have their faith shrivel up and blow away.

Also, as to "how can it possibly be wrong", well there is a way that seems right to men, but the end thereof is death. There are all kinds of things that might seem good or right or positive...false prophets are in the business of exploiting these things. One doesn't "tickle the ear" with negativity. But, obviously the ear tickling is wrong.

When the false prophet who held sway at the church where I worked (his wife was the director of the preschool who hired me) quit the church (he literally went insane, started bringing a loaded gun to bed with him, his wife divorced him)...the services that were so "spirit filled" went from being over 250 people gathered almost every night...to 0. The church membership went from having over 300 on it, to 7. Seven people remained in that church...the rest just went away.

It was amazing...everyday I'd go to work and the people who worked there that attended that church and the meetings were always telling me what a wonderful thing I was missing, that God Himself was there every night and wonderful miracles were happening. They were all into the whole being slain in the spirit and kept telling me that I was missing out on being wholly spirit filled by not going. Not one of those women now profess Christ at all.

Now, out of that 250, I'm sure others went on to other churches and are to this day living out their Christian walk. But, I also know for a fact that many simply don't believe in anything anymore.

We know things by their fruit...the fruit of all those "spirit filled" services where people were going to be slain in the spirit and to see signs and wonders, dried up and withered.

So, yes, there is a downside to this, there are real people who go through real shipwreck of faith because of this kind of stuff.

 

[Hitch]

Well said Handy,as usual.

 

[Igor]

...If what he is doing brings anyone to salvation isn't it worth supporting...

Chris, I am as convinced as I can be by your testimony here that you were healed by God, and I personally think you should tell everyone possible about it. But I think it's a better testimony to tell of what happened between you and God, and just leave Andrew Kabala out of it. In reality, he had nothing to do with your healing anyway. God did that for you, and God alone should be given the credit and the glory for it!

Your testimony of what God has done for you through your faith is worth supporting and worth repeating to everyone who will listen. God didn't need Andrew Kabala present to heal you. He only needed you to have faith in Him (God, not Andrew), which you have demonstrated that you have. But I am thinking less and less that Mr. Kabala had much at all to do with your healing. Your testimony of God healing you can bring many to Christ, so that is worth supporting!

The only knowledge I have of Andrew Kabala is the video you linked to. By any chance were you present as an eye witness when this video was filmed? Or do you know either of the ladies that were healed in order to authenticate this? I ask because just based on the video, I have to admit I'm pretty skeptical of Mr. Kabala. I know you intended for us to see an example of being "slain in the spirit" at the end of it. But because of the "dejavu" effect it was having on me, I watched the whole thing very closely. Someone in Mr. Kabala's position is very aware of which "healings" are easy to fake, and is very aware that this is one of the easiest and most common ones that are faked. If he is for real, it seems he should know better then to allow this type of "healing" to be used in his video, yet he still allowed it. That makes me very suspicious.

Yes, some people may have come to Christ through this. God many times uses things to His advantage that are not specifically from Him. But look at the comments the non-Christians posted on You Tube about the video. You know, the ones you cautioned us not to read because of the bad language? Well I'm pretty used to bad language and it doesn't affect me much, so I read them. Those people were driven even further from Christ by what they considered really obvious trickery and lies. I wonder just how many non-Christians are driven even further from Christ, and convinced even further that there is no truth in Christianity when they see this type of thing. Politicians consider letters from their constituents important because they know that for each person that is willing to take the time to put a thought in writting, there are about 1000 others that feel the same way but dont' bother putting it in writting. So how many others have been driven further from Christ by that video that might be represented by those who actually took the time to write about it? I find that I can't support that part of it.

Why am I so skeptical? Did anyone notice that there are other people in the video asking Andrew to pray for them, and he shuns them, asking them to wait for him to get back to them, which he doesn't do (at least not on camera)? This is a very common tactic when the cameras are rolling and the "healer" only wants to deal with the people he has planted among the attendees, the ones who's job it is to put on the act for the cameras. Did you notice that at the moment of "healing" the cameras, in both instances only zoom in on the feet and don't show the hips of the people with the short leg? This is also a common tactic among fakers because, no matter how good the actor is, watching the video over and over in slow motion would reveal the actor rotating his/her hips to make it appear that one leg "grew" longer had the whole body been filmed and no other tactic was used to hide this. I did the exact same thing and exactly paralleled the motions of the "Healees'" legs while watching the video.

It's just like a magicians slight of hand. They get everyones' focus away from anything they don't want you to see by either hiding it or directing your focus to something else. For the cameras, simply have them zoom in on the feet. For the folks in the audience, draw their eyes to only what you (the magician) want them to see and away from what you don't want them to see. Did you notice the slight shaking of the feet (eyes are naturally drawn to motion, and magicians know this!) and Andrew's sudden loud shout of the word "shift", which coincidently sounded a lot like he inexplicably shouted a swear word? This would cause most people's eyes to be suddenly drawn to the source of the loud, unexpected and possibly shocking noise (and away from the hip shifting of the healee) at just the right time. He does this just as the healee's short leg has begun to lengthen. In fact, he was actually a little late in the one case, which i think was a mistake. The leg had already lengthened by the time he "commanded" it to "shift"! Better late than never I guess, but it makes it look like the lady was having a hard time holding the un-natural position long enough to wait for her cue.

Even the lady falling down in the end is just too easy to fake, and is also a tactic commonly employed by actors placed in the crowd to draw peoples' attention away from things the "healer" doesn't want them to notice and to convince the skeptical that this "must be real"!

As I said, all I have ever seen of Andrew Kabala is what is in that short video, so I'm not ready to accuse him of being a fake yet. I'm only cautioning folks that are not yet familiar with this type of thing that there is great potential and much evidence for trickery in that video and we should be using a lot of caution in this case. The fact that Andrew Kabala seems to have quite a reputation for being a "healer" tells me that if he is real, he should have at least known better than to make that kind of video.

 

[reba]

Sadly Amen Handy,

 

[handy]

I've been thinking about this topic today and I have a question to put forth for discussion:

It's been said here and elsewhere that we should just embrace "slain in the Spirit" as from God, in spite of the fact that it is not taught in the Scriptures at all....

My question is this: What else are we to embrace that is not taught in the Scriptures?

Naturally, there is a lot of controversary within the Church regarding charismatic gifts. But, the thing is, most of the charismatic gifts were taught as being from God within the Scriptures, both Old and New Testament. Tongues are plainly taught in the New Testament and even the Old Testament bears it out. God refers to teaching His people via foreign tongues in Isaiah, generally done in judgment, but wholly from God and we see an example of tongues and interpretation when God writes upon King Belshazzar's wall and Daniel interpreted that tongue. Miraculous healings are taught within both the Old and New Testament, even the miracle of being bit by a venomous snake and not dying is recounted for us in Numbers 21. Visions, dreams and prophesies are clearly taught in both Old and New. Casting out of demons seems to be part of the New Covenant, but we know from the Scriptures that Jesus and the apostles did this...

Even controversial topics like the Trinity are taught in the Scriptures...if one chooses to accept passages like John 1 and Hebrews 1:8...

But, can anyone tell me of any kind of "manifestation" of the Spirit that we accept that has no bearing within the Scriptures besides "slain in the Spirit"?

 

[cleanfreak]

I've been thinking about this topic today and I have a question to put forth for discussion:

It's been said here and elsewhere that we should just embrace "slain in the Spirit" as from God, in spite of the fact that it is not taught in the Scriptures at all....

My question is this: What else are we to embrace that is not taught in the Scriptures?

Naturally, there is a lot of controversary within the Church regarding charismatic gifts. But, the thing is, most of the charismatic gifts were taught as being from God within the Scriptures, both Old and New Testament. Tongues are plainly taught in the New Testament and even the Old Testament bears it out. God refers to teaching His people via foreign tongues in Isaiah, generally done in judgment, but wholly from God and we see an example of tongues and interpretation when God writes upon King Belshazzar's wall and Daniel interpreted that tongue. Miraculous healings are taught within both the Old and New Testament, even the miracle of being bit by a venomous snake and not dying is recounted for us in Numbers 21. Visions, dreams and prophesies are clearly taught in both Old and New. Casting out of demons seems to be part of the New Covenant, but we know from the Scriptures that Jesus and the apostles did this...

Even controversial topics like the Trinity are taught in the Scriptures...if one chooses to accept passages like John 1 and Hebrews 1:8...

But, can anyone tell me of any kind of "manifestation" of the Spirit that we accept that has no bearing within the Scriptures besides "slain in the Spirit"?

Hi Dora,
With all due respect,
There are a lot of things going on today that are "of God" but yet are not in the scriptures. You only have to look around to see the change in the method on how we are winning souls to Christ today -vs- what was done in the biblical days. The message is the same but the method is way, way different. Take this forum for example.

I fully agree that we are to ask questions to find out if things are real and from God or just another fake, but I cannot discount that some of the things we see today ARE from God.

You stated a few post ago about folks who were "slain in the Spirit" but now they do not have anything to do with God. Just because you are "slain" does not mean you will not fall away from the faith. It is almost as if you are blaming the reduction in membership of that church to this act of being "slain in the Spirit". There was most certainly another issue there.

 

[reba]

Freak you posted this in answer to Handy I sure don't speak for her. She can well answer for her self quit Handily :yes

Hi Dora,
With all due respect,
There are a lot of things going on today that are "of God" but yet are not in the scriptures. You only have to look around to see the change in the method on how we are winning souls to Christ today -vs- what was done in the biblical days. The message is the same but the method is way, way different. Take this forum for example.

This forum is not a far cry from the hand written letters of Paul and company.

I fully agree that we are to ask questions to find out if things are real and from God or just another fake, but I cannot discount that some of the things we see today ARE from God.

Nor does anyone else

You stated a few post ago about folks who were "slain in the Spirit" but now they do not have anything to do with God. Just because you are "slain" does not mean you will not fall away from the faith. It is almost as if you are blaming the reduction in membership of that church to this act of being "slain in the Spirit". There was most certainly another issue there.

Handy writes to well for anyone to have come away from her post with such a simplistic take. It wasn't the falling down it was the whole of the Charismatic hype. The emotions, the dog and pony show, We worship in spirit and truth not just in our God given emotions.

 

[reba]

I was at a meeting a few years back.... Folks were jumping around tongue talking singin hymns, shoutin to the Lord having a good ol time in the tent just outside Stockton CA. Then I saw it i did with my own eyes I saw with my own eyes the demon the accursed demon ugly slimy, stinky, disgusting demon. I was a frog in a mason jar! The real demon was the preacher his ladies with the cross scratched in their foreheads. Baby i was i told Mom if God put those crosses on the women they would be straight.


The difference between today and yesteryear is the racketeers have become more sophisticated

Mr.A A Allan about 1956

 

[Hitch]

You must be really old.

 

[reba]

You must be really old.

Why thank you Hitch

Pro 16:31 The hoary head is a crown of glory, if it be found in the way of righteousness.

 

[Hitch]

Google has been swamped with A A Allen searches

 

[reba]

He died an alcoholic. A bum by most folks standards. I knew the guy was a fake but it is still a same.. Seems it doesn't take much to get some 'good' men of God off track. My guess it starts wiht being on the road away from home and some good sweet pentecostal lady says my my you must be starving for a home cooked meal :adore........ back to topic....

 

[cleanfreak]

This forum is not a far cry from the hand written letters of Paul and company.

......and falling out in the Spirit is not a far cry from the accounts of people falling in the bible when in God's presence.

Why is it folks can find anything in the bible to fit what they believe, but it cannot be done to fit what they do not believe? Sounds to me like that this is not a far cry from hypocrisy.

Handy writes to well for anyone to have come away from her post with such a simplistic take. It wasn't the falling down it was the whole of the Charismatic hype. The emotions, the dog and pony show, We worship in spirit and truth not just in our God given emotions.

Sorry for being so simple minded. That is what I got out of it. It seems that since it has not truly happened to Handy or yourself, then it must not be from God. That is what I read of it. Simple as that.

Why do folks "generalize" and compare such things to those who obviously have faked it. This 'falling out' has happened to me twice in 25 years. There was no evangelist and no one caught me either. I fell forward once and backwards once.
When I got up each time there was a change. A good one. It sounds like PGT had a similar experience and I do not want to quench the fire he has by comparing it to some that have faked it.

 

[farouk]

handy:

I think it's a question of the revelation of Scripture being now complete. Whereas in the time of the Acts, a transitional Apostolic period, the Scriptures weren't yet complete, and so the sign gifts were used in certain circumstances to confirm the Gospel message, particularly in a Jewish context.

 

[handy]

I think I asked a very legitimate question...are we not told to test the Spirits...and if a few folks say excitedly..."Oh yes, this is real even though it's not spoken of in the Scriptures, is akin to what happens in pagan religions and can have a physiological explanation!"...is that an adequate test?

It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I personally haven't experienced it either...I personally haven't ever spoken in tongues, but I don't doubt that it's valid spiritual gift, even though it can be faked as well.

Also, I accept that there are a number of things that I personally disagree with, but I see where some Christians, in their study of the Scriptures came to the particular conclusion...I think of things like infant baptism, and the belief that one must, absolutely must speak in tongues when baptized by the Spirit...

Cleanfreak, you ask, "Why is it folks can find anything in the bible to fit what they believe, but it cannot be done to fit what they do not believe? Sounds to me like that this is not a far cry from hypocrisy."

I think I can just as validly ask, "Why is it that folks point to the Bible when something verifies their experience, but when there is nothing in the Scriptures to back up what they are saying, then they tell us to forget about what the Scriptures say...the Scriptures don't cover everything?" Is not the possibility of hypocrisy inherent in this as well?

I remember well folks showing me many Scriptures saying "These show that "slain in the Spirit is of God" but when I studied those same texts, I didn't see the same thing at all. Over and over "slain in the Spirit" is touted as being filled with overwhelming love...and, as has been stated more than once, in the Scriptures when folks fall down, it's usually due to abject terror and they are reassured not to be afraid and told to get up! Even when folks just fall down to worship, this still isn't the same as being "slain in the Spirit". It used to be that a lot of Pentecostal preachers stated that "slain in the Spirit" was biblical, using those texts. Now many admit that there is no foundation in Scripture for it, even though they still claim its validity.

Rather than start a game of trying to figure out who might be a hypocrite...let us rather reason together. This thread is in the forum of Apologetics and Theology where we "Discuss topics related to defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines and theology."

In the pursuit of trying to get to the truth of this particular Christian doctrine, which is rejected by most of the Church, I look to the Scriptures...which are silent on "slain in the Spirit" as it is described. However, there are still those who want to affirm this particular manifestation as being from God.

OK. Since there is no Scriptural foundation for it...again I ask a legitimate question...not born out of hypocrisy but out of an attempt to discover what is true...What other manifestation of the Spirit do we accept comes from God that has no foundation in the Scriptures? If anyone can come up with one, then we can discuss as to why it is accepted and see if we can apply the same reason to this particular phenomenon.

And, not to sound cranky or anything...but I don't count forums like this one as a manifestation of the Spirit. Forums like these are courtesy of Bill Gates...and I'm not even sure he's a Christian. The methods that we use to travel around, share the gospel, whatever, are not manifestations of the Spirit.

 

[handy]

handy:

I think it's a question of the revelation of Scripture being now complete. Whereas in the time of the Acts, a transitional Apostolic period, the Scriptures weren't yet complete, and so the sign gifts were used in certain circumstances to confirm the Gospel message, particularly in a Jewish context.

You know, farouk, I was taught this when I was in the Calvinist church. I left that church because when I examined the Scriptures too much of their theology didn't hold up...just saying in case people think I have a "thing" against Pentecostals or charismatics. I don't, I just like to verify things in the light of God's word.

But, I've come to the conclusion that the reasoning behind cessationism is faulty. Most cessationist maintain that since the Bible is now complete, infallible and more than adequate to guide the Church in all things (which it is)...there is no longer a need for spiritual gifts or miracles. And yet, in pointing to the infallibility of the Scriptures to support the idea that God no longer gives spiritual gifts or does miracles, they fail to see that the Scriptures do not say anywhere that the gifts were only going to be temporary. I think this is a bit illogical. If we are to point to the infallibility of the Scriptures (and I certainly believe the Scriptures are infallible) to justify all experiences, and the Scriptures validate spiritual gifts, why reject them as being "only temporary"?

This goes into a totally different topic though...one worthy of discussion, but probably not on this particular thread. ;)

 

[farouk]

handy:

Ty.

I think it's interesting to consider what was their context in the first place.

Take care.

 

[cleanfreak]

I think I asked a very legitimate question...are we not told to test the Spirits...and if a few folks say excitedly..."Oh yes, this is real even though it's not spoken of in the Scriptures, is akin to what happens in pagan religions and can have a physiological explanation!"...is that an adequate test?

It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I personally haven't experienced it either...I personally haven't ever spoken in tongues, but I don't doubt that it's valid spiritual gift, even though it can be faked as well.

Also, I accept that there are a number of things that I personally disagree with, but I see where some Christians, in their study of the Scriptures came to the particular conclusion...I think of things like infant baptism, and the belief that one must, absolutely must speak in tongues when baptized by the Spirit...

Cleanfreak, you ask, "Why is it folks can find anything in the bible to fit what they believe, but it cannot be done to fit what they do not believe? Sounds to me like that this is not a far cry from hypocrisy."

I think I can just as validly ask, "Why is it that folks point to the Bible when something verifies their experience, but when there is nothing in the Scriptures to back up what they are saying, then they tell us to forget about what the Scriptures say...the Scriptures don't cover everything?" Is not the possibility of hypocrisy inherent in this as well?

I remember well folks showing me many Scriptures saying "These show that "slain in the Spirit is of God" but when I studied those same texts, I didn't see the same thing at all. Over and over "slain in the Spirit" is touted as being filled with overwhelming love...and, as has been stated more than once, in the Scriptures when folks fall down, it's usually due to abject terror and they are reassured not to be afraid and told to get up! Even when folks just fall down to worship, this still isn't the same as being "slain in the Spirit". It used to be that a lot of Pentecostal preachers stated that "slain in the Spirit" was biblical, using those texts. Now many admit that there is no foundation in Scripture for it, even though they still claim its validity.

Rather than start a game of trying to figure out who might be a hypocrite...let us rather reason together. This thread is in the forum of Apologetics and Theology where we "Discuss topics related to defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines and theology."

In the pursuit of trying to get to the truth of this particular Christian doctrine, which is rejected by most of the Church, I look to the Scriptures...which are silent on "slain in the Spirit" as it is described. However, there are still those who want to affirm this particular manifestation as being from God.

OK. Since there is no Scriptural foundation for it...again I ask a legitimate question...not born out of hypocrisy but out of an attempt to discover what is true...What other manifestation of the Spirit do we accept comes from God that has no foundation in the Scriptures? If anyone can come up with one, then we can discuss as to why it is accepted and see if we can apply the same reason to this particular phenomenon.

And, not to sound cranky or anything...but I don't count forums like this one as a manifestation of the Spirit. Forums like these are courtesy of Bill Gates...and I'm not even sure he's a Christian. The methods that we use to travel around, share the gospel, whatever, are not manifestations of the Spirit.

You make some great points Handy.

I do not think I ever stated "...the Scriptures don't cover everything?" Interpretations of the "falls" that are found in the bible vary one from another, but the fact is they are still there. The foundation you speak of sounds more like 'if it did not happen that exact way in the Scriptures, then it is not of God'.

there are two things to that come to mind

1. Why was there not an "Amen" at the end of Acts. Could it be that this is an ongoing Act and some of the things are not recorded yet?.......dunno for sure , just asking.

2. Jesus stated in John 14:12 that would do even greater things than him. If these things are done today, and not recorded in the scriptures, does this make Jesus a liar?...........again, dunno for sure. just asking

I want to learn more about this as well

 

[montanaviking]

You know I have had the same question myself concerning the "slain in the spirit" issue. I am a pentecostal believer, but I am also very much a realist when it comes to things like this. There is fakery, there are liars and charlotans in the christian community without a doubt and they do great harm to the cause of Christ. What I have come to settle in my mind in this case is this. We cannot put God in a box when it comes to His presence and how people react or respond to it. Scripture is filled with examples of the presence or move of God and how it effects people and their surroundings. Jesus healed in a miriad of ways from merely speaking to spitting in the dirt. When baptized in the spirit sometimes the room shook and at least once that we know of tongues of fire appeared on peoples heads. So, I don't believe that we can unequvically state that God only does things one way. Or that because we don't see something specifically shown in the Bible that it cannot be from God. I am not talking about Biblical Doctrine here, but on how people react to the presence of God. We are all individuals and when God shows up, there is no telling how we will react or how we will feel when He does. We will all be in the presence of God one day in heaven and I think we will all have different reactions when we get there. You have probably heard the song "I can only imagine." When the writer wonders what he will do when he stands before Jesus one day. He wonders if he will stand in awe, bow, dance or fall. I think there is some truth to that. We are all created uniquely by our God and so respond differently to His touch. I have never experienced the falling in God presence, but I am not going to say it cannot be. There was fakery in Jesus time and during the apostles mininstry. But that did not make the things they did fakery. Jesus will be the ultimate judge on these things and those that do them.