Why do people pass out at faith healing services?

[cleanfreak]

Awesome post montanaviking

 

[reba]

good post Montana

 

[handy]

Very good post, Montana....and welcome to the site!

I'll probably pick it apart...just because I'm engaged in this discussion...I don't know for some reason I'm just going back and reprocessing all that I went through during that time at the Assembly of God I worked at...

...it was just so hard to see women that I worked with...some of whom I went to college with (and the Child Development department was so small it was almost like family), women who had faith, who confessed Christ and had the same very sincere experiences that are being described here...and then they fail to finish the race. These were friends, people I shopped with and went over to their houses for dinner...I was bridesmaid at one's wedding. Their faith was genuine, then they got emotionally caught up in something...and now they are no longer walking with God.

So, when I see statements like this: "It sounds like PGT had a similar experience and I do not want to quench the fire he has by comparing it to some that have faked it." I see a red-flag, because testing a spirit will never "quench the fire" if the Spirit is indeed of God. If something is truly of God, testing this will only strengthen the faith and the experience, not quench. We see this in the very context of the verse:

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22: Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.

So, since we do not want to quench the Spirit...let us apply this passage to "slain in the Spirit". Let's examine it carefully...holding fast to that which is good and abstaining from every form of evil.

It's that last part that pulls me up...because "slain in the Spirit" looks very much like a "form of evil." Again, this is something that is found in pagan religions...I'm not talking about false prophets and people faking things here...I'm speaking of actual pagan religions in which people open themselves up to real evil spirits and have experiences that look exactly like "slain in the spirit". And, in examining it carefully, we see that it has no precedent in the Scriptures.

As I mentioned earlier, other manifestations of the Spirit are verified by the Scriptures...tongues, healings, dreams, visions...things that can be counterfeited by false prophets, but nonetheless verifiable via the Scriptures. But not this one...and this one is prevalent in pagan religions.

Since there is more than one thread, I hope I'm not repeating something here...or maybe it bears repeating anyway...the text of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us that all Scripture is profitable for "reproof". Reproof is the translation for the word elegchos which means: a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested.

If we agree that Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for reproof, and that it is actually described as "noble-minded" to examine the Scriptures to see if things are so...then why should I accept that we should embrace "slain in the Spirit" when there is no Scriptural foundation for it....other than the fact that people have fallen down in the Scriptures? ( Not for any reason remotely like being "slain in the spirit", but yeah, people fell down back then.)

Montana, you do bring up a good point about this very well could be just how certain individuals react to God's presence...and I can certainly accept that, I truly can. I know how I react when I feel God's presence and it is different than others, a very individual thing. Hey, I like to raise my hands in worship...and I attend a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church...ask Mike to see how common that is!

But, my problem with applying this to "slain in the Spirit" is that "slain in the Spirit" isn't all that "individual"...people are exhorted to seek this out...people line up like so many dominoes to be "touched" and fall backwards into waiting arms. So, although I have an open mind about it...truly I do, I'm willing to examine any scripture about it...in case there is some that I've missed, and I'm also willing to reconsider it in light of other manifestations that are present today that have no foundation in Scripture as well...if someone can present one...I'm still not in agreement that this is from God.

 

[theophilus3213]

So you think although the term is not the best terminology to use, it still is representative of who the Holy Spirit is therefore you do use it? In other words you don`t think the term entirely misrepresents the Holy Spirit? Is that correct?

The prhase is used to describe an experiance, I do not think that it is intended to represent the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit is so complex that one phrase cannot adequetly represent Him. But the phrase is not contradictory to the Holy Spirt.

 

[theophilus3213]

You know, farouk, I was taught this when I was in the Calvinist church. I left that church because when I examined the Scriptures too much of their theology didn't hold up...just saying in case people think I have a "thing" against Pentecostals or charismatics. I don't, I just like to verify things in the light of God's word.

But, I've come to the conclusion that the reasoning behind cessationism is faulty. Most cessationist maintain that since the Bible is now complete, infallible and more than adequate to guide the Church in all things (which it is)...there is no longer a need for spiritual gifts or miracles. And yet, in pointing to the infallibility of the Scriptures to support the idea that God no longer gives spiritual gifts or does miracles, they fail to see that the Scriptures do not say anywhere that the gifts were only going to be temporary. I think this is a bit illogical. If we are to point to the infallibility of the Scriptures (and I certainly believe the Scriptures are infallible) to justify all experiences, and the Scriptures validate spiritual gifts, why reject them as being "only temporary"?

This goes into a totally different topic though...one worthy of discussion, but probably not on this particular thread. ;)

If we believe that the scriptures are infallable then we cannot say that the gifts were meant to be tempory for the following reasons:

1. On the day of Pentacost Peter said that the same gift that they had recieved is for everyone! (Acts 2:39 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. KJV)

2. Jesus said that those who believe will do the works He did and even greater works will they do. This promise is to everyone who believes, and it is not limited to first century believers, but to all believers throughout the centuries! ( John 14:12-14 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV)

3. Jesus said that there are certain 'signs' that will follow every true believer. And Jesus did not limit these sings to first century believers. These signs are to follow every believer throughout the ages. (Mark 16:17-18 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18.They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. KJV) (Note that this promise is to those that believe!)

4. Jesus said that all things are possible to them who believe. (Mark 9:23
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. KJV) According to this promise there is absolutely nothing that is impossible for us to do if we will meet the one condition that is given, that is to believe! This includes 'slaying people in the Spirit'.

5. Paul said that our faith is to be based upon Gods power and not just words alone. (1 Cor 2:4-5 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. KJV)

6. Paul indicates that one way to distinguish true teachers from false ones is that they operate in the power of God. For the kingdom of God is not in word only, but in power! (1 Cor 4:19-20
19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. KJV This verse indicates that all true techers of God operate in the power of God. Hence we are given one litmus test in the scriptures for determiniing who is a true teacher and who a false one is. (It is just one test of several tests.) And based upon these scriptures it is safe to say that if you are not operating in the gifts of the Spirit, you have not yet entered into the kingdom of God. If you have no power of the Holy Spirit operating through you, you are not yet in the kingdom of God! Miracles are a normal part of true christianity! It always has been, and it always wil be!

When Paul said "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Cor 13:10) He could not possibly have been looking down the road to some time in the future when the 'cannon' of scripture would have become competed. Paul was expecting Jesus to come back in His generation. So Paul must have been refering to somthing else altogether. And he was! What Paul meant by 'that whick is perfect is come' is the second advent of Jesus Christ. He was refering to when Jesus comes and sets up His kingdom on earth at the beginning of His 1000 year reign hear on earth, Then these gifts will pass away as they will no longer be needed. Or he could have been refering to the time when our bodies will be raptured and become 'glorified'. At such time the gifts would no longer be needed.

Remember, God is not limited by anything.

May our Lord Jesus richly bless you in all things as you serve Him with all your heart mind soul and streangth.

 

[reba]

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

 

[pjt]

The prhase is used to describe an experiance, I do not think that it is intended to represent the Holy Spirit for the Holy Spirit is so complex that one phrase cannot adequetly represent Him. But the phrase is not contradictory to the Holy Spirt.

Okay some people say this experience came because of the Holy Spirit. They feel they have fallen over because the Holy Spirit hit them and slayed their spirit. I have heard people describe it as such where the Holy Spirit hits them. But you are saying it is an experience that does not represent the Holy Spirit. That I can agree with. But I cannot agree with "the phrase is not contradictory to the Holy Spirit". I believe it is not only contradictory but also offensive if not blasphemous.

 

[theophilus3213]

Okay some people say this experience came because of the Holy Spirit. They feel they have fallen over because the Holy Spirit hit them and slayed their spirit. I have heard people describe it as such where the Holy Spirit hits them. But you are saying it is an experience that does not represent the Holy Spirit. That I can agree with. But I cannot agree with "the phrase is not contradictory to the Holy Spirit". I believe it is not only contradictory but also offensive if not blasphemous.

No sir, i am not saying that it is an experience that does not represent the Holy Spirit. The experiance that is described by that phase is CAUSED by the Holy Spirit. I believe that the phrase came into existance because people who witnessed the experiance saw people just drop to the ground by the power of God. And when they did, they said that it looks like what happens when someone suddenly dies; they just fall down. So they started calling the experiance as being 'slain in the spirit'. But I am just guessing here as I do not know how the phrase came into existance. But there can be no doupt that the experiance is caused by the Holy Spirit! (At least my experiaces were caused by the Holy Spirit!)

I have been slain in the Spirit on several occasions. And they are the most intense and most blissful experiances of my life! Please read my other posts on this thread where i describe what happened to me.

Shalom

 

[Chris]

I have been slain in the Spirit on several occasions. And they are the most intense and most blissful experiances of my life! Please read my other posts on this thread where i describe what happened to me.

Shalom

its 2011 maybe its time for a new name for it blissful grounding or something like that. A better name would make it less confusing and probably more appealing.

 

[theophilus3213]

its 2011 maybe its time for a new name for it blissful grounding or something like that. A better name would make it less confusing and probably more appealing.

I agree! The problem is that if we abitrarily change what it is called, we would have the problem of educating the rest of the body of Christ concerning the need for the change and what the new phrase is. this could take quit a few years to do! But I am not sure wether or not this is of much concern for everyone else. So we may just have to live with what we have.

 

[Chris]

I agree! The problem is that if we abitrarily chang what it is called, we would have the problem of educating the rest of the body of Christ concerning the need for the change and what the new phrase is. thid could take quit a few years to do! But I am not sure wether or not this is of much concern for everyone else. So we may just have to live with what we have.

lol you are right christians take a while to change things it takes years for some things. I didnt even kow what it was. It was the what on earth was that experience to me.

 

[handy]

Just checking in before going to bed, but I had to laugh at these past few posts...

Chris, Samuel...I've been thinking that the Church really needs to be called something other than Christians. I mean with what passes for "Christianity" these days...maybe a new name, or dusting off an old one like Followers of the Way (Acts 19).

But you've hit upon the same problem I did, getting the rest of the brethren on board with it.

But, if we do go back to the name of the church in Acts, we more staid types can be "Followers of the Way" and those of you who experience "slain in the Spirit" can be "Falling in the Way!"

:p With that it's obvious I need to get to bed and get some sleep!

 

[Igor]

...But, if we do go back to the name of the church in Acts, we more staid types can be "Followers of the Way" and those of you who experience "slain in the Spirit" can be "Falling in the Way!"

:p With that it's obvious I need to get to bed and get some sleep!

Oh man, Handy! I think I'll call myself "Falling out of the Way" of the rocks that are going to be thrown at you for that one:D:D:D

 

[theophilus3213]

Just checking in before going to bed, but I had to laugh at these past few posts...

Chris, Samuel...I've been thinking that the Church really needs to be called something other than Christians. I mean with what passes for "Christianity" these days...maybe a new name, or dusting off an old one like Followers of the Way (Acts 19).

But you've hit upon the same problem I did, getting the rest of the brethren on board with it.

But, if we do go back to the name of the church in Acts, we more staid types can be "Followers of the Way" and those of you who experience "slain in the Spirit" can be "Falling in the Way!"

:p With that it's obvious I need to get to bed and get some sleep!

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHHAHA!
I love you Handy!

Yes, I agree with you that todays 'christianity' is not 'historical' christianty! I look at what the Bible says, and look at what the churches are doing and I see two different things! And they wonder why they don't ever see any miracles. They say they believe that the Bible is true, Yet they do not obey what the Bible says. It just goes to show that we need to pray for the churches.

 

[Chris]

Just checking in before going to bed, but I had to laugh at these past few posts...

Chris, Samuel...I've been thinking that the Church really needs to be called something other than Christians. I mean with what passes for "Christianity" these days...maybe a new name, or dusting off an old one like Followers of the Way (Acts 19).

But you've hit upon the same problem I did, getting the rest of the brethren on board with it.

But, if we do go back to the name of the church in Acts, we more staid types can be "Followers of the Way" and those of you who experience "slain in the Spirit" can be "Falling in the Way!"

:p With that it's obvious I need to get to bed and get some sleep!

Lol funny handy luv it!

some may not like this but an alternative name to a christian that would appeal to me is a Lightworker, I saw it somewhere on some website in application to us Light=Jesus is light of the world, worker=servant. We cant cant use it someone else beat us to it. Its just a theory anyway I thought it sounded pure. I am pretty sure the term christian is not changing in a hurry.

slain in the spirit = carpet charismatic

 

[Igor]

...slain in the spirit = carpet charismatic

:D:D:D Oh yeah, when the rest of the folks wake up n the morning, I'm going to be dodging the rocks!!!:D:D:D

 

[Chris]

:D:D:D Oh yeah, when the rest of the folks wake up n the morning, I'm going to be dodging the rocks!!!:D:D:D

we gotta laugh at ourselves. I was joking with that thinking up new names for things

 

[handy]

Oh man, Handy! I think I'll call myself "Falling out of the Way" of the rocks that are going to be thrown at you for that one:D:D:D

 

[reba]

slain in the spirit = carpet charismatic


LOL

 

[Sparkey]

Okay, I'm gonna tell you about when "IT" happened to me and how I was rebuked afterward. As a young man my best friend came to me (we were Catholics then) and brought me to a church where he heard a message of truth. It was a small church and the only thing that I ever heard about it was that they were "holy rollers," --something to stay away from.

What I noticed about the people in that church was that they were just like you and me with one exception: They had something that I wanted the moment I saw it - the ability to show love to each other. One family had been talking to my friend and he was excited to tell me about the things he had learned from reading the bible. The church that he literally dragged me to (I was skeptical) believed that the bible was actually the word of God. That wasn't exactly new to me but rather it was the way they believed it. Literally the word of God - the living word, able to change lives just like Jesus, who is the Word - affected lives and changed them too.

So these guys there were called "bible thumpers" and "holy rollers" were my first experience with what the Catholic church later began to call "Charismatics." It wasn't in that little church though that I became one of "them". Mostly what was happening was that I was being shown something that was eventually going to be able to fill a huge gap that was in my life. I desperately wanted to learn how to love people, especially my family and learn some way to manage the rage that was going on inside of me. Some poets say that negative feelings carve out a space for good things to fill. Maybe that is the case with me because I was a very angry and confused young man.

Into that hole in my heart came a knocking sound ... something was drawing me toward healing and I could not resist the need I saw inside. So yeah, when I was told by other Christians about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was receptive. Dogma aside (because I was taught false things too) suffice it to say that I do believe that what started on the day of Pentecost right after the day of the Passover sacrifice of the Lamb of God continues even today along with power to accomplish the will of God. It was His presence that impressed me more than anything else - seen in the lives of the people in those two different churches that held one thing in commom. They talked in tongues. So what? That part wasn't the big deal to me.

I read about how David's wife despised the fact that he chose the robes of a Priest and danced. I thought about what God wanted for me. When I finally had the revelation that God was actually my Father -AND- that He had joy because of me, I was overwhelmed. That was the tipping point and I went off into praise and worship of Him like I never even dreamed of. The concept that I could please Him was foreign to me. I wanted my own dad to appreciate me so very much that when my prayers and heartfelt need was met by the workings of the Holy Spirit who basically said, "I am pleased with you," I didn't know how to respond.

When next Sunday came and the Pastor told us about how he had so often been under the anointing and unction of the Holy Ghost but never fell, never behaved in an unseemly way I felt like he was talking about me. He explained that along with it comes the power to stand and to remain before God without need to fall. It was enough. I've since proven that this is the case and have experienced even stronger "fallings of the Spirit" where His Spirit has fallen on me but I did not "fall" [to the ground].

So there you go, Carpet Christian here but one who stands. Thank God!