Why do you take the risk of eating murdered animals?

[Tessa]

Yeah I know, and that's the whole matter of morality summed up: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - but why does it need to be stated? It is because we do not naturally see others as being equivalent to ourselves, but inferior to ourselves. That is because everyone outside of us is separate to us, we are all independent things. But remember this: nobody is born eating plants or animals, those things are introduced to us even before we can remember any of it, so they become normal to us before we come to an age of reasoning the difference between "another sentient being" and "a food resource" - so we are trained to see sheep as a food resource but dogs as a sentient being (according to culture). Then as you say, the ability to feel pain is not really taken into account because it doesn't matter if we aren't treating them as our equal.

Did you see my post to WIP earlier in the thread? There I have mentioned that there is a type of vegetarianism that does respect the natural rights of plants. I think that the fruitarian diet is probably the most morally justified, but I don't know about whether wheat feels pain. Could you tell me more about that?

I found it on google the other evening. Leave it with me and I will study this in depth. Yes I saw your post Serving Zion

 

[Tessa]

I know God would not have created mankind without giving him food to keep him alive. Perhaps food that is picked and not cut is painless. I will check up on that. We don't know exactly what plants The Lord created for them to eat. Some plants are poisonous.
But we also have to remember not to judge other people who do eat what we abstain from because of kindness to the animals.
The fish Jesus ate were caught by nets.

 

[Tessa]

I am not going as deep as I intended as it seems to be scientists disagreeing with each other. The majority say that plants do not feel pain as they have neither brain nor a nervous system. The Royal Society of Protection against cruely to Animals (RSPCA) agree with that.
Picking fruit and vegetable dies not kill a plant either.
When you think of all the weeds that are killed I doubt they feel pain.

 

[Serving Zion]

I am not going as deep as I intended as it seems to be scientists disagreeing with each other. The majority say that plants do not feel pain as they have neither brain nor a nervous system. The Royal Society of Protection against cruely to Animals (RSPCA) agree with that.
Picking fruit and vegetable dies not kill a plant either.
When you think of all the weeds that are killed I doubt they feel pain.

There's more to be considered about it than just being able to feel pain, because there is also consciousness and philosophy. I think that's a big part of why the kosher laws forbade eating meats that came from animals that did not chew the cud or have a cloven hoof. When you think about it, asking what kind of animals don't chew the cud nor have a cloven hoof, you see those that have paws and that don't just stand there looking absent all day. They're of a much higher sentience, and more like companions than beasts. I think that's why the Jewish people were told that it is unclean for them to eat those types, because they are a royal priesthood, a chosen people, and it is far below that class to be eating their companions or vermin.

I do have some empathy for plants though. If you remember my photo in the Photography forum a few months back, I explained that when the kumara was sprouting I saw him as a baby and I couldn't bring myself to put the knife into him as he was just starting to lift his eyes to the sun and give thanks for life... But of course those feelings are anthropomorphic. I don't really know if the kumara is able to feel grateful for life though, it's just the way I think I would feel if I was looking like it was. I think that when we empathise with other people and animals in that way however, they seem to respond well because we are treating them as we would like to be treated if we were them, and they don't look down on us for anthropomorphising them it's better than treating them according to a stereotype, which is the alternative and is fundamentally prejudice that ultimately undermines better judgment.

It's much easier to see if our treatment of animals is appreciated by them or not because they express in human-like ways. Plants don't really express in human-like ways though... They wilt when they're stressed and they glow when they're thriving and that's about all we have to go by. As I said, without a central nervous system and without a means to express hesitation, we can't really see if they are aware of their self or simply responding to the environment according to their design.

 

[Hej73]

Not sure why spirit have told me so many times to warn others against meat eating. But i have the feeling something "evil" is waiting around the corner. Something huge that will wake up humanity. Not sure though. So if people cant quit eating meat completely then at least stop for a few weeks or more. :yes

 

[Tessa]

There is a lot of disease about. Anything could happen.

 

[Hej73]

Not sure why spirit have told me so many times to warn others against meat eating. But i have the feeling something "evil" is waiting around the corner. Something huge that will wake up humanity. Not sure though. So if people cant quit eating meat completely then at least stop for a few weeks or more. :yes

"The bad about eating meat is the lasting effect of hurting and killing animals. These martyred animals return in the form of creatures who turn their forces against the bodies of the descendents of those who once killed them." Rudolf Steiner

 

[Serving Zion]

"The bad about eating meat is the lasting effect of hurting and killing animals. These martyred animals return in the form of creatures who turn their forces against the bodies of the descendents of those who once killed them." Rudolf Steiner

Is he describing some sort of reincarnation and karma philosophy? Can you give a link to his work where the original statement is made?

 

[Serving Zion]

Not sure why spirit have told me so many times to warn others against meat eating. But i have the feeling something "evil" is waiting around the corner. Something huge that will wake up humanity. Not sure though. So if people cant quit eating meat completely then at least stop for a few weeks or more. :yes

Here's something that Jesus said:

"Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
Matthew 6:34 (ASV) but the expression in Greek really is beautiful: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/6-34.htm

 

[Hej73]

Is he describing some sort of reincarnation and karma philosophy? Can you give a link to his work where the original statement is made?

I guess so. You can find more here: https://wn.rsarchive.org/GA/GA0266/19120509e01.html

 

[Serving Zion]

I guess so. You can find more here: https://wn.rsarchive.org/GA/GA0266/19120509e01.html

It's not as mystic as I had imagined, he's actually talking literally: "Bacteria are re-embodied tortured, killed and eaten animals."

Do you know if he has established that as fact? I'm skeptical of it, for instance is it 1 to 1 bacteria for animal? etc. If it had been scientifically proven there'd be all sorts of talk about it. It sounds like he's only making a religious assumption. Do you know his religion? Wikipedia says he is a self-proclaimed clairvoyant, whatever that means. It sounds pagan.

 

[Luminous_Rose]

Hi Luminous_Rose
My problem with raising the animals myself would be that I would have grown too attached to have them slaughtered let alone eat them. I would them too much to do it. I know it's being a softy,

I'm sure it's probably not easy when it's your own animal. I'm still focused on the fact that we will eat our chickens one day when they stop laying eggs if they are still alive by then, of course. Right now I'm thinking, "I'm okay with that," but when it really happens, I may or may not feel differently.

I'm thankful that there is a nearby Farmer's Market and we have a few local ranchers in the area. There's one guy who is great. He's a funny and pleasant guy to talk to. He runs his own ranch with his family and they have cows and sheep. The meat is always top quality, vacuum sealed, and frozen. There's another local farmer that has a pig farm. They raise the pig and send it to their butcher and the customer then decides how they want their cuts and stuff. The farmer doesn't meddle in the process anymore than after they are taken off the farm. Never tried them, though, but they come from a family of dairy farmers that have the greatest milk ever so it's awesome =) I thoroughly enjoy when I can talk to the rancher/farmer and know where my meat is coming from and how the animal's were treated. It's not cheap stuff, but it is great quality. I actually became a bit disturbed when I cooked up some meat from Walmart and it would go bad while thawing from fridge to freezer or you'd cook it and it'd only be good for a few days. With the meat that's local from the rancher, after 5 days, it doesn't even smell weird like the commercial stuff.

 

[Luminous_Rose]

I think we have very different understanding of what dignity, respect and care mean. When your loved one dies, what do you do to show dignity, care and respect for him?

There is a big difference between animal and people. A person dies, generally the common thing would be to grieve, plan a funeral/memorial or a burial/cremation of some type in accordance to the individual's personal preferences.

I know when some people have a pet die they can afford the cremation and paw print and all of that for them. Honestly, it's never really something I'd be willing to pay for unless we made quite a lot of money, which we don't. A pet dies, of course it's a sad thing, and depending on the methods available they may have a burial, cremation, a biohazard bag for the dump, it all depends on the situation, I suppose.

You are saying this like people and animals are on the same level here. People were placed above the animals, having dominion over them. By this, it isn't justifying abuse, it's allowing people permission to use such animals for work, companionship, and to care for them. At that time, it wasn't known for people to eat meat. Later on, though, there are more instances of people being able to eat meat and often it was done in a ritualistic manner for some reason or other. Then, other times, it was simply for sustenance.

Genesis 1:26 NIV:
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

That's right, but it's also important to recognise that you don't need beef to meet your nutritional needs. You only need a balanced diet and a healthy digestive system.

I suppose I still would have to disagree. What non-meat items give you a good amount of B12 that you'd eat on a daily basis? What about Zinc? CoQ10? A lot of non-meat protein sources are crazy high in phytic acid/phytates, which are said to cause chaos on dental health if the body is also lacking other important nutrients to counteract that. A lot of animal products are great sources of good fats, too. Sure, there are plenty of plant-based good fats. Although, there are a lot of other animal-based good fats that are beneficial to overall body health.

Let's just face it, we've come a long way from Eden. Back in the Garden of Eden, God created everything first hand right there. The plants in the ground that were there were straight from God - he probably put all the necessary nutrition that our bodies needed inside those fruits and vegetables. Not to mention, the soil must've been absolutely superior to have a garden like that. So in that case, people probably could have lived on veggies and fruits. Although, since then, we've had commercialized farms, abundant pesticides/herbicides on our foods, added ingredients that really aren't healthy or necessary, unhealthy processing techniques that makes food less nutritious, etc. The soil in a lot of our world is less than superior for plants and plants are absorbing what is in that ground. If the ground lacks nutrients, the plants will, too. Fruits used to have many varieties that weren't as sweet. However, many people love sugar - the body often loves the dopamine hit. So, farmers have played on this and have found the right way to breed fruits that produce the sweetest tastes and have stuck to it. Fruits today are a lot sweeter than they used to be and as a result are often crazy high in sugar unless one sticks to lower sugar varieties.

There are some people out there that could definitely handle more veggies and fruits in their diet than others. Our bodies are all different. Some people need quite a bit more protein in their diets than others. Some people...well, most people, could use more vegetables today in our world. I think it's important that we all listen to our bodies and what they need. Some people are fine on minimal meat - they pay attention to how their body behaves and when they need meat then at that point they have an appropriate portion size that is right for them.

In this day in age, I don't believe it's healthy to live on only veggies and fruits alone as their nutrients have been long since depleted. Veggies are still healthy, some fruits can be too, but I don't think they are as nutrient dense as they were in the beginning right when God first made them.

 

[Serving Zion]

There is a big difference between animal and people.

But what makes you a person and not an animal? Here's my question in a different way (because I am not calling you an animal!): do you remember choosing to be born as a human? Does the cow remember choosing to be born as a cow? No? (I hope you agree!).. Then how can you say that you have more right to their life than they do?

A person dies, generally the common thing would be to grieve, plan a funeral/memorial or a burial/cremation of some type in accordance to the individual's personal preferences.

Ok. But only if they actually have people that care about them (which is sometimes not the case, so they are equivalent to an animal: disposed of according to protocol).

I know when some people have a pet die they can afford the cremation and paw print and all of that for them. Honestly, it's never really something I'd be willing to pay for unless we made quite a lot of money, which we don't. A pet dies, of course it's a sad thing, and depending on the methods available they may have a burial, cremation, a biohazard bag for the dump, it all depends on the situation, I suppose.

It cost me $65 for Meow-Meow's plot. I made the casket and I dug the hole. I haven't cried like that since Nana passed away.

You are saying this like people and animals are on the same level here. People were placed above the animals, having dominion over them.

Those are only your values though, which is circular reasoning. Jesus was placed above all - and what did He say? "Even the son of man came not to be served but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many".

By this, it isn't justifying abuse, it's allowing people permission to use such animals for work, companionship, and to care for them.

That's what I say too. But it isn't words that matter, it is deeds (Matthew 21:28-31a).

At that time, it wasn't known for people to eat meat. Later on, though, there are more instances of people being able to eat meat and often it was done in a ritualistic manner for some reason or other. Then, other times, it was simply for sustenance.

Can you point to the first instances of those things in scripture?

I suppose I still would have to disagree. What non-meat items give you a good amount of B12 that you'd eat on a daily basis? What about Zinc? CoQ10? A lot of non-meat protein sources are crazy high in phytic acid/phytates, which are said to cause chaos on dental health if the body is also lacking other important nutrients to counteract that. A lot of animal products are great sources of good fats, too. Sure, there are plenty of plant-based good fats. Although, there are a lot of other animal-based good fats that are beneficial to overall body health.

I'm not even going to entertain those ideas because I do not believe it is morally justifiable to take the life of another in order to save the life of the one who is taking it. My conscience does not permit me to do that. If I am going to die of nutrient deficiency it isn't because I didn't eat meat, it is because the food I ate is not nutritious enough.

Let's just face it, we've come a long way from Eden. Back in the Garden of Eden, God created everything first hand right there. The plants in the ground that were there were straight from God - he probably put all the necessary nutrition that our bodies needed inside those fruits and vegetables. Not to mention, the soil must've been absolutely superior to have a garden like that. So in that case, people probably could have lived on veggies and fruits. Although, since then, we've had commercialized farms, abundant pesticides/herbicides on our foods, added ingredients that really aren't healthy or necessary, unhealthy processing techniques that makes food less nutritious, etc. The soil in a lot of our world is less than superior for plants and plants are absorbing what is in that ground. If the ground lacks nutrients, the plants will, too. Fruits used to have many varieties that weren't as sweet. However, many people love sugar - the body often loves the dopamine hit. So, farmers have played on this and have found the right way to breed fruits that produce the sweetest tastes and have stuck to it. Fruits today are a lot sweeter than they used to be and as a result are often crazy high in sugar unless one sticks to lower sugar varieties.

There are some people out there that could definitely handle more veggies and fruits in their diet than others. Our bodies are all different. Some people need quite a bit more protein in their diets than others. Some people...well, most people, could use more vegetables today in our world. I think it's important that we all listen to our bodies and what they need. Some people are fine on minimal meat - they pay attention to how their body behaves and when they need meat then at that point they have an appropriate portion size that is right for them.

In this day in age, I don't believe it's healthy to live on only veggies and fruits alone as their nutrients have been long since depleted. Veggies are still healthy, some fruits can be too, but I don't think they are as nutrient dense as they were in the beginning right when God first made them.

That's pretty well summed up by Romans 8:20-21, isn't it?

 

[Serving Zion]

I'm still focused on the fact that we will eat our chickens one day when they stop laying eggs if they are still alive by then, of course.

I had that same idea once upon a time, but it was totally different when the time came round. It will be interesting to see how you go too when that day comes!

 

[n2thelight]

Perhaps meat eaters will not be punished because they are so brainwashed.
Perhaps evil forces wanted to destroy you spiritually and decided to convince you meat is not murder.

Why are you risking everything for meat when there are so many alternatives? To me that is insane.

So what may I ask is the purpose of Leviticus chapter 11 ?

 

[Edward]

when the kumara was sprouting I saw him as a baby and I couldn't bring myself to put the knife into him as he was just starting to lift his eyes to the sun and give thanks for life... But of course those feelings are anthropomorphic. I don't really know if the kumara is able to feel grateful for life though, it's just the way I think I would feel if I was looking like it was.

They wilt when they're stressed and they glow when they're thriving and that's about all we have to go by. As I said, without a central nervous system and without a means to express hesitation, we can't really see if they are aware of their self or simply responding to the environment according to their design.

N2thelight beat me to it. I knew it was there in the OT. It even talks about which fish we are and are not to eat. Anything with fins and scales is for food. (Lobsters don't have scales and are bottom feeders, so, sorry Red Lobster sell your overpriced oceanic vacuum cleaners to someone else, Lol!).

Scripture also says He has given us every herbs and frits for our food. Herbs are green plants. So that's not about all we have to go by as you said. It is all spelled out in scripture. Most animals purpose is to be food for us. When they have been eaten by man, they have achieved their destiny and the Lord's purpose for them! Perhaps they too have rewards coming for cheerfully obeying. Maybe they'll get to move up in existence?

When the animal is eaten by man, it becomes a man. When the animal eats a man. the man becomes the animal, which is a step down for the man and always interrupts the man's own lifely efforts to achieve God's destiny for themselves. Therefore I vow to go armed into lion territory or bear territory. Lol

Nevertheless Brother, you have approached an interesting direction that perhaps should be considered and discussed a bit. do plants have pain? Are plants conscious? Are animals conscious? Can animals feel remorse or compassion? Can they understand us speaking? Are the Mountains conscious? Planets and stars conscious?...Very interesting Brother!

I say yes. Well, plants prolly don't have pain, but that doesn't mean that they are not conscious! I don't know how to speak Tomato plant...as always, what does scripture say about it. There is our book of truth. Oh, here it is. It's Psalm 148

148 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights.

2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

5 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created.

6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

7 Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:

8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:

10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl:

11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:

12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:

13 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.

14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the Lord.../

Wow, that Psalm comes straight to the point. How can a beast or a plant praise God without being conscious? How could the sun or the moon praise God and not be conscious? Conclusion: They are all conscious.

I can't speak moon or stars, but I can speak a little bit of dog. (Lol!) This begs the question...before God came down and confounded the language at Babel, could they talk to animals? Oh eve talked to a serpent that we know of. Another guy talked with a donkey, lol!
Before you laugh at this crazy notion of Edwards, have you ever talked to your plants? Ok so maybe I'm not a nut!

 

[Serving Zion]

N2thelight beat me to it. I knew it was there in the OT. It even talks about which fish we are and are not to eat. Anything with fins and scales is for food. (Lobsters don't have scales and are bottom feeders, so, sorry Red Lobster sell your overpriced oceanic vacuum cleaners to someone else, Lol!).

Scripture also says He has given us every herbs and frits for our food. Herbs are green plants. So that's not about all we have to go by as you said. It is all spelled out in scripture. Most animals purpose is to be food for us. When they have been eaten by man, they have achieved their destiny and the Lord's purpose for them! Perhaps they too have rewards coming for cheerfully obeying. Maybe they'll get to move up in existence?

When the animal is eaten by man, it becomes a man. When the animal eats a man. the man becomes the animal, which is a step down for the man and always interrupts the man's own lifely efforts to achieve God's destiny for themselves. Therefore I vow to go armed into lion territory or bear territory. Lol

Nevertheless Brother, you have approached an interesting direction that perhaps should be considered and discussed a bit. do plants have pain? Are plants conscious? Are animals conscious? Can animals feel remorse or compassion? Can they understand us speaking? Are the Mountains conscious? Planets and stars conscious?...Very interesting Brother!

I say yes. Well, plants prolly don't have pain, but that doesn't mean that they are not conscious! I don't know how to speak Tomato plant...as always, what does scripture say about it. There is our book of truth. Oh, here it is. It's Psalm 148

148 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights.

2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

5 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created.

6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

7 Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:

8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:

10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl:

11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:

12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:

13 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.

14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the Lord.../

Wow, that Psalm comes straight to the point. How can a beast or a plant praise God without being conscious? How could the sun or the moon praise God and not be conscious? Conclusion: They are all conscious.

I can't speak moon or stars, but I can speak a little bit of dog. (Lol!) This begs the question...before God came down and confounded the language at Babel, could they talk to animals? Oh eve talked to a serpent that we know of. Another guy talked with a donkey, lol!
Before you laugh at this crazy notion of Edwards, have you ever talked to your plants? Ok so maybe I'm not a nut!

It's the question of self-awareness, or even awareness, that's where morality is grounded.

The golden rule defines objective morality as the perfect application of subjective morality: do unto others as you would have done to you.

It's then upon the one who is doing unto the other to reason whether it is what they would have done unto them, if they were in the other's place. If that's being followed then there's no cause for resentment because nobody is doing injustice to another.

So they always need to rationalize their injustice somehow.

You targeted the very first thing when you asked whether animals can hear us, can they understand language, because in order to believe that what we do unto them doesn't matter to them, we have to believe that they aren't aware of it - which is the deepest deception I know of. And it's not only what people do to animals but to others and even their own children.

Have you ever seen a child crying his eyes out and you ask "awww, what's wrong?" And the parents say "nothing, he's fine". That's what it is: they are literally cut off from reality and unable to see what is happening from their own child's point of view. I don't know if it can get any worse than that, but it's the same thing that blinded them and they couldn't see Jesus for who He is.

Anyhow, I see you've got plenty to think about and I like that! Thanks for your post and another chance to share my thoughts

I do just want to show you one of the scriptures to add to your thoughts here because you seem to respect what they say, and it's with regards to the point of view of the animals. This is really interesting:

Proverbs 12:10. "The righteous knows the life of his animal, but even the compassion of the wicked is cruel". Here it shows two types of people: the righteous and the wicked, and it shows that the righteous type of person knows the life of his animal.

It's really packed with meaning that we can't get through only one translation, but the different translations all show a slightly different aspect of it. If you look at the interlinear translation you can drill into the words and see what those words mean when they're used in different places in the bible, that helps quite a lot to get the fuller meaning of a word, but notice this: the word translated as life is "nephesh" - it is literally the same word used as "soul" in every place that the soul is mentioned in the old testament.

So the Hebrew is clear in saying that animals have a soul: a thing that expresses itself, or rather, it is the very expression of one's self. Proverbs is saying that the righteous have intimate knowledge/care and concern for that. Have you ever seen how a dog runs and hides under the table when someone's in a stroppy mood? And they're full of joy when you come home after a long day?

It's clear then that they do have consciousness: they are aware of danger and they enjoy good things. The question is "where do you draw the line?".

 

[Luminous_Rose]

But what makes you a person and not an animal? Here's my question in a different way (because I am not calling you an animal!): do you remember choosing to be born as a human? Does the cow remember choosing to be born as a cow? No? (I hope you agree!).. Then how can you say that you have more right to their life than they do?

I'm not saying that animals don't deserve life. What I'm saying is that animals serve a different purpose than us. They all serve an important part in the ecosystem. Also, hunting serves a part, too. Over hunting, no good, but hunting in moderation to keep animal populations optimal helps keep the balance.

Animals also lack self-reflection, which is another difference. People can reflect on their actions, life, and decisions. Does a lion ever sit back one afternoon and say, "You know, I shouldn't have killed that gazelle today...boy, I'm an awful lion..." No, they don't. They are acting instinctual as designed. They do what they do.

We were created differently and we serve a different purpose than animals do. We are usually aware of our choices and decisions and as believers, we strive to please God. We can make a choice for God and to serve Him and share the good news with others. God has given us commands and morals to stick to to live a godly life. These don't apply to animals.

It cost me $65 for Meow-Meow's plot. I made the casket and I dug the hole. I haven't cried like that since Nana passed away.

I'm sorry to hear for your loss. You may still be surprised how many people out there cannot afford to pay $65 for the burial of their animal. It's nice that you are able to afford this for your pet and yourself.

Those are only your values though, which is circular reasoning. Jesus was placed above all - and what did He say? "Even the son of man came not to be served but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many".

Jesus did give his life as a random for many, but who is to say that the "many" in there includes animals? We may never know.

Can you point to the first instances of those things in scripture?

After the flood, we see an instance in God's Covenant with Noah that in Genesis 9:1-3 NIV it mentions:
Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

-Sounds like we have permission to eat animals here. Reading further into the text it mentions against eating the "lifeblood". If this was the case, it needed to be accounted for with God.

The Mosaic laws against eating of unclean animals was later recorded in Exodus 22:31 NIV as well as Leviticus 22:8 NIV. It is suggested that Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean according to Genesis 7:2 NIV. There was permission to eat clean animals within those laws.

As far as animals being eaten as part of a holy ritual, we see in Exodus 12:3-11 NIV:

Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. Do not eat the meat raw or boiled in water, but roast it over a fire—with the head, legs and internal organs. Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover.


We also see in Leviticus 6:24-30 NIV it mentions:

The Lord said to Moses, “Say to Aaron and his sons: ‘These are the regulations for the sin offering: The sin offering is to be slaughtered before the Lord in the place the burnt offering is slaughtered; it is most holy. The priest who offers it shall eat it; it is to be eaten in the sanctuary area, in the courtyard of the tent of meeting. Whatever touches any of the flesh will become holy, and if any of the blood is spattered on a garment, you must wash it in the sanctuary area. The clay pot the meat is cooked in must be broken; but if it is cooked in a bronze pot, the pot is to be scoured and rinsed with water. Any male in a priest’s family may eat it; it is most holy. 30 But any sin offering whose blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place must not be eaten; it must be burned up.

I'm not even going to entertain those ideas because I do not believe it is morally justifiable to take the life of another in order to save the life of the one who is taking it. My conscience does not permit me to do that. If I am going to die of nutrient deficiency it isn't because I didn't eat meat, it is because the food I ate is not nutritious enough.

That's fine. If it goes against your conscience to eat a dead animal then that's your choice. Vitamin deficiencies in our society are rampant for many reasons, but there's no denying that animal meat does provide easier to access vitamins/protein than some other non-animal foods. My main point is that there's no where in The Holy Bible that tells us not to kill animals for food if we need to eat. You know, one day when we are in Heaven and perhaps don't need to eat or if there's food, eat for pleasure, without having to kill anything and we are no doubt 100% cared for by our Creator, that would be a lovely time.

 

[Serving Zion]

What I'm saying is that animals serve a different purpose than us.

What is the purpose of the human, could you tell us?

Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

-Sounds like we have permission to eat animals here.

It looks like the permission to eat animals was not given until that time, and given only because of Noah having done the sacrifice. Do you agree?

That's fine. If it goes against your conscience to eat a dead animal then that's your choice.

It's not the eating of a dead animal that goes against my concience (it only makes me feel gross, so that's a choice I make), the thing that goes against my conscience is what it does to the living animal - and I don't claim to have the right to make that my own choice.

meat does provide easier to access vitamins/protein than some other non-animal foods.

Why would you not go a little further in order to get the nutrition you need, when you know it would save significant stress and trauma to the animal? How do you think the sum of the inconvenience to you weighs against the sum of the (*beg your pardon*) inconvenience (*beg your pardon*) they suffer?

My main point is that there's no where in The Holy Bible that tells us not to kill animals for food if we need to eat.

Matthew 7:12 is good enough for me

if there's food, eat for pleasure, without having to kill anything and we are no doubt 100% cared for by our Creator, that would be a lovely time.

It would be a lovely time, and there could be no argument about it