Why Faith Alone?

[Jethro Bodine]

Actually my friend,

our unrighteousness is removed through faith in God's forgiveness and enduring by faith the imputation of God's righteousness.

You remain justified, and therefore saved, by continuing to believe, not by doing work. Work is the sign that you (still) have that faith. Just as Abraham's work in offering up Isaac in obedience to God in Genesis 22:12 was the sign of his faith by which he had been made righteous apart from works in Genesis 15:6.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You know, you introduce Pilate and Herod talking together and I never said they did not. Shall I take that approach?

I was agreeing with your statement that "monster is not sorry they hurt someone." The monster is the beast.

Why is it frustrating when I point out other factors that are not in the original post but you can do so and that is OK? Do you see the point?

I do see your point, but it's not ok to "point out, "no one asks God to forgive them for hurting him", because murdering Giod in flesh by "the Roman way" hurt him verry much. He wept over people who were sinning against him.

If a man is suffering because his son is making very bad choices, which was your example of God, I pointed out that this man would not be suffering if his son was doing so but the kid across town sleeping in the gutter was. We as humans do not have the capacity to care emotionally for all of mankind (or another way either.) But God does. He does not hurt when we do wrong but is not bothered by others who do wrong, as a normal father does. God is not like the father watching his son go wrong and cares deeply but the others on the planet doing wrong are not a concern. That is just too limited.

The point is, God is a Father watching his Son do right and suffer for it.

Of course Jesus was God in the flesh. But what that experience is like we do not know. We are not supposed to know. I guess I read a fair bit of people who do not know the real God very well but like to tell us with great confidence, what God feels and thinks. Those who really know Him are less likely to do so as their own ignorance is just too real.

I know I am different and am a deeper thinker than most.

I disagree that "we are not supposed to know" how God in flesh felt. Paul knew,

That I may know him.....the fellowship of his sufferings, Phl.3:10
the sufferings of Christ abound in us 2Cor.1:5
the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. 2Cor.12:15
rejoice in my sufferings for you.....the afflictions of Christ in my flesh Col.1:24

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Do you believe Jesus suffered and died on the cross just for Himself?

Not at all. Our great Savior suffered sin against himself instead of killing those sinners. Why? Because he loved those sinners.

when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that follow his steps:
1Per.2:20-21

They're saying Jesus passed over the hatred mankind inflicted on him.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I was agreeing with your statement that "monster is not sorry they hurt someone." The monster is the beast.

Uh, that’s the common non-apology apology today. You’ll see it here too. I tell people who say that that they don’t have the power to hurt me so that’s not the issue.

I do see your point, but it's not ok to "point out, "no one asks God to forgive them for hurting him", because murdering Giod in flesh by "the Roman way" hurt him verry much.

Can you point out where someone in scripture asked Jesus to forgive them for hurting him please?

He wept over people who were sinning against him.

Because the great tribulation would happen to them.

The point is, God is a Father watching his Son do right and suffer for it.

You’ll need to supply scripture that says we can hurt God.

I disagree that "we are not supposed to know" how God in flesh felt. Paul knew,

Paul knew because he knew God, not because he guessed.

That I may know him.....the fellowship of his sufferings, Phl.3:10
the sufferings of Christ abound in us 2Cor.1:5
the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. 2Cor.12:15
rejoice in my sufferings for you.....the afflictions of Christ in my flesh Col.1:24

When a man suffers with Christ, he knows what Christ suffers. It doesn’t come by imaging God is like an ordinary human father.

 

[JLB]

Not at all. Our great Savior suffered sin against himself instead of killing those sinners. Why? Because he loved those sinners.

when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that follow his steps:
1Per.2:20-21

They're saying Jesus passed over the hatred mankind inflicted on him.

If Jesus did not suffer and die on the cross for Himself, then who did He suffer punishment for?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You remain justified, and therefore saved, by continuing to believe, not by doing work.

I agree.

Work is the sign that you (still) have that faith. Just as Abraham's work in offering up Isaac in obedience to God in Genesis 22:12 was the sign of his faith by which he had been made righteous apart from works in Genesis 15:6.

I agree. Abraham believed his son would live to have children as God told him,

inIsaac shall thy seed be called
Gen.21:12

There's no way Isaac could have children if he remained dead, so Abraham believed

that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead Heb.11:19

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Uh, that’s the common non-apology apology today. You’ll see it here too. I tell people who say that that they don’t have the power to hurt me so that’s not the issue.

Can you point out where someone in scripture asked Jesus to forgive them for hurting him please?

Because the great tribulation would happen to them.

You’ll need to supply scripture that says we can hurt God.

Paul knew because he knew God, not because he guessed.

When a man suffers with Christ, he knows what Christ suffers. It doesn’t come by imaging God is like an ordinary human father.

As long as you understand that Jesus wasn't being punished in place of sinners, but was belng punished in place of his Father, I'm good with it.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

If Jesus did not suffer and die on the cross for Himself, then who did He suffer punishment for?

His Father,

for thy sake I have borne reproach.....
the insults of those who insult you fall on me. Psa.69:7,9, Rom.15:3

all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. Jn.15:21

for thy sake I have borne reproach

Our Lord was showing us his desire not to end the lives of people who sinned against him. Because that's how our Father is.

JLB, sometimes I word things poorly, so in a nut shell, when Jesus got spit on, he would have been justified in knocking the spitters head off. He "propituated" "expiated" his own anger.

 

[JLB]

I agree.

I agree. Abraham believed his son would live to have children as God told him,

inIsaac shall thy seed be called
Gen.21:12

There's no way Isaac could have children if he remained dead, so Abraham believed

that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead Heb.11:19

The point being "believe" must have with it, the act of obedience otherwise it can not justify, can not save.

If Abraham believed God but didnt obey His voice to offer his son Isaac on the alter, then Abraham's faith would have remained incomplete, and dead (dormant; inactive) and unable to produce the intended divine result of justification... showing that Abraham continued to be right with God.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26



JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The point being "believe" must have with it, the act of obedience otherwise it can not justify, can not save.

If Abraham believed God but didnt obey His voice to offer his son Isaac on the alter, then Abraham's faith would have remained incomplete, and dead (dormant; inactive) and unable to produce the intended divine result of justification... showing that Abraham continued to be right with God.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

JLB

I agree. Our Lord preached repentance, which is the result of faith in him.

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; Eph.5:1

The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus represented sinful mankind. Scripture says Jesus is,

the brightness of Gods' glory, and the express image of Gods' person Heb.1:3

it is his glory to pass over a transgression. Pro.19:11

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As long as you understand that Jesus wasn't being punished in place of sinners, but was belng punished in place of his Father, I'm good with it.

Why should God the Father be punished at all?

 

[JLB]

His Father,

You believe Jesus died on the cross for the sons of His Father?


That sir, would indeed be heresy.



JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Why should God the Father be punished at all?

Exactly,

they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love. Psa.109:5

He that hateth me hateth my Father also. Jn.15:23

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Exactly,

they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love. Psa.109:5

He that hateth me hateth my Father also. Jn.15:23

I’m not sure I get it.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You believe Jesus died on the cross for the sons of His Father?

That sir, would indeed be heresy.

No it isn't,

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus...Know ye not that the .unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?...And such were some of you...But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Gal.3:27,1Cor.6:9,11,Rom.5:8

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I’m not sure I get it.

The thing is,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

In Spirit as our Creator, or because of his birth on earth, Jesus is both a Father and son of man and by his own law, should not have been put to death.

 

[JLB]

No it isn't,

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus...Know ye not that the .unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?...And such were some of you...But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Gal.3:27,1Cor.6:9,11,Rom.5:8

Please read the last phrase of the scripture you quoted...

CHRIST DIED FOR US!


Jesus Christ did not die for God the Father.

Christ died for us, on the cross, and became sin for us.

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:6-8


Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:4-5




JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Please read the last phrase of the scripture you quoted...

CHRIST DIED FOR US

And did so when we were his enemies,

For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Rom.5:10

Jesus Christ did not die for God the Father.

On behalf of him, as a representative.

Christ died for us, on the cross, and became sin for us.

So he allowed himself to be maligned, to be accused of blasphemy, a sinner, because of false witnesses.

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:6-8

Right. You believe God didn't punish the guilty for their sins against him, but punished the innocent instead.

I believe God didn't punish the guilty for their sins against the innocent, but will if they don't repent.

Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God and afflicted

And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him Lk.23:35
Such filth.

But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:4-5

The chastisement "of our peace" was upon him. Not the condemnation of our peace.

You're confusing the correction from our Father that brings peace, with condemnation of sin. Read Heb.12. In a nutshell,

fixing our eyes on Jesus...have you forgotten this word...do not despise Gods' chastisement...it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. vs.2,5,11

God corrects us to make us more like himself. When people mistreat Christians, we respond in love, because that's how Jesus was "chastised." And Jesus himself isn't the One who needed any correction.

JLB,
Please read Heb.12 and then understand when Paul says,

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree. Gal.3:13

he's quoting Deu.21:23, but Paul never intended that anyone is cursed by the law without Deu.21:22.

Read it. Paul is saying our Savior was defamed, slandered.

 

[JLB]

You believe God didn't punish the guilty for their sins against him, but punished the innocent instead.

I believe what this scripture says.

He was wounded for our transgressions,

• Whose transgressions was Jesus wounded for?

He was bruised for our iniquities;

• Whose iniquities was He bruised for?

The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,

• Whose peace was He chastied for?

But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:4



JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I believe what this scripture says.

He was wounded for our transgressions,

• Whose transgressions was Jesus wounded for?

He was bruised for our iniquities;

• Whose iniquities was He bruised for?

The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,

• Whose peace was He chastied for?

Now....what happens when God gets fed up with people sinning against him? What would have happened if Jesus said, "I'm tired of these sinners abusing me. I don't like the way they sin against me, mocking and beating me."

What does our Father do when he has had enough of mankinds sins?

He wad wounded for enduring our transgressions. God help us.