Why Hell?

[gr8grace3]

Did Jesus Christ defeat death? Yes. 1 Cor 15:26......this verse is very important. This actually is an annihilation verse, but it is death that is annihilated. So it is very important for us as christians as to WHEN this happens.

Are the righteous AND the wicked resurrected? Yes. Acts 24:15 Are the wicked resurrected imperishable? yes.

1 Cor 15:16~~The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
katargeitai2673to render inoperative, abolish


Acts 24:15~~having a hope in God,which these men cherish themselves,that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

1 Cor 15:53-55~~For this perishable must put on the imperishable,and this mortal must put on immortality.54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable,and this mortal will have put on immortality,then will come about the saying that is written,"DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.55"O DEATH,WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY?O DEATH,WHERE IS YOUR STING?".......this is for the wicked also. They put on the imperishable. That is why we have Paul a little earlier saying this:

1 Cor 15:21-22 For since by a man[came] death,by a man also[came] the resurrection of the dead.22For as in Adam all die,so also in Christ all will be made alive.... Acts 24:15 again.

So After the resurrection of the wicked, death is annihilated/swallowed in the Lake of Fire. And If one does not think that the wicked are resurrected at this time and will be later. Just remember that death has already been swallowed up so the wicked can no longer die. but the wicked are resurrected at this time.

Rev 20:12-13 And I saw the dead,the great and the small,standing before the throne,and books were opened;and another book was opened,which is [the book] of life;and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books,according to their deeds.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged,every one[of them] according to their deeds.

So we have the resurrection of the imperishable wicked in these verses. So what do we see next?

Rev 20:14~~Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.This is the second death,the lake of fire. The second death, is death annihilated/swallowed. THEN......

Death is Gone already in the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15~~And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life,he was thrown into the lake of fire.


So we have Paul describing that after the resurrection death is swallowed up in 1 Cor 15. And we see the wicked resurrected and then death swallowed up in Rev 20:14. THEN we see unbelievers tossed into the lake of Fire in Rev 20:15.

We have Paul describing death swallowed up after the perishable have been made imperishable. We have John in revelation describing a resurrection of the wicked and death being swallowed up.

 

[TimothyW]

ok so show me in any English sentence then with that statement. and satan can kill, if not God wouldn't have had to tell satan not to kill job. so if satan can kill both body and soul then we ought to fear him.

What? Was in response to my post?
There is Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins shall die".

This was in the newspapers when the Titanic sunk:
"Of the 2,200 souls who were aboard the once mighty ship 868 were saved, and are en route to Boston of New York."

The soul is the person, from Hebrew and Greek definitions, to English word usage.

 

[jasoncran]

that's from a Christian world view, I even knew that in that context It meant that they had souls.

hm what does the idea of two deaths then have to be if the Christian is already raised from the dead?

next, what does an he gave up the ghost mean? that is in old English. not used much. the Hebrews word soul first mentioned in the bible is nephesh chaya. man became a living soul. animals have nephesh(body) so what does nephesh chaya then mean if its just flesh?

and from a link I mentioned in another thread.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (neshamah, pnoe) of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7). [God put the "spirit" into Adam's nose.]

pnoe can be also a spirit, so what is that if all we are is just flesh?

and

For as the body without the spirit (pneuma) is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). [Here "spirit" must refer to the "breath" of life.]

 

[Randy]

they do the same with courts and our so called justice system. 12 plus one and you are of luck as in the convicts say.

Except in regard to the Lords judgments nothing is hidden from Him. He searches the hearts and minds of the people.

There was a blessing sent to all nations as well. Gal 3:8-9

 

[The Light]

Rev 20:12-13 And I saw the dead,the great and the small,standing before the throne,and books were opened;and another book was opened,which is [the book] of life;and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books,according to their deeds.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged,every one[of them] according to their deeds.

So we have the resurrection of the imperishable wicked in these verses. So what do we see next?

Rev 20:14~~Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.This is the second death,the lake of fire. The second death, is death annihilated/swallowed. THEN......

Death is Gone already in the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15~~And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life,he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If death is annihilated in the lake of fire, then why not consider that everything else thrown in that lake would not also be annihilated? The lake is called the 2nd death, so even with you saying the 1st death is no more, there is this this 2nd death that admittedly involves an annihilation/swallowing.

As I currently understand things, it appears to me that this 2nd death, the lake of fire which I think is Hell/Gehenna, is a torturous fate that awaits the ungodly but it is a punishment that is finite that leads to a fate that is ultimately irreversable, death/annihilation.

 

[gr8grace3]

If death is annihilated in the lake of fire, then why not consider that everything else thrown in that lake would not also be annihilated? The lake is called the 2nd death, so even with you saying the 1st death is no more, there is this this 2nd death that admittedly involves an annihilation/swallowing.

As I currently understand things, it appears to me that this 2nd death, the lake of fire which I think is Hell/Gehenna, is a torturous fate that awaits the ungodly but it is a punishment that is finite that leads to a fate that is ultimately irreversable, death/annihilation.

Because Paul told us that the wicked are resurrected imperishable. And If Christ defeated death, then the wicked can't die. Defeating death is Christs victory.

That second death, is the death of death and hades. If death is annihilated the wicked can't die after their resurrection.

 

[chessman]

If death is annihilated in the lake of fire, then why not consider that everything else thrown in that lake would not also be annihilated?

Did I understand correctly from your OP that this subject is one you rather recently decided to study? Whether that's correct or not, that's one excellent point. I've come to this study relatively recently. I find most all that try to Biblically defend eternal torture of the lost in Hell, wind up with these types of inconsistencies.

"The lake is called the 2nd death, so even with you saying the 1st death is no more, there is this this 2nd death that admittedly involves an annihilation/swallowing." Again, excellent point.

"As I currently understand things, it appears to me that this 2nd death, the lake of fire which I think is Hell/Gehenna, is a torturous fate that awaits the ungodly but it is a punishment that is finite that leads to a fate that is ultimately irreversable, death/annihilation."

Me too.

If someone could put together a coherent Biblically sound argument against it, I'm willing to reconsider my view.
.

 

[chessman]

Because Paul told us that the wicked are resurrected imperishable.

. I know you said that, but i didn't find the Scripture for it. You first mentioned 1Cor 15:16 and said:"1 Cor 15:16~~The last enemy to bedestroyed is death." Was that a typo or something, and you meant another verse? I don't get that from 1Cor 15:16 which says: "16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised."

How do you come up with the death of the lost being destroyed as a possible state from the empirical fact that Christ was resurrected?

I tried again to follow your argument but found you said 1 Cor 15:22 came after 1 Cor 15:53. Huh?

And then jumped to Rev.

I'm rather confused by your flow in your argument. But I appreciate your attempt. Maybe there just some typos or something? Can you possibly clarify it?

 

[gr8grace3]

On an emotional and "feelings" level, I can totally relate not wanting to believe eternal separation from God. But from a biblical view I have to go with eternal conscious separation.


Death, destroy and perish are all words that are used to "prove" the annihilationists position.

Off the top of my head, we have 3 things that are truly annihilated,death, the old earth and the old heavens.

And 2 Pet 3:6,9-12 should really clue us in:

2 Peter 3:6,9-12 "the world at that time was destroyed (Gr: apollumi), being flooded with water. ... The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish (Gr: apollumi)but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed (Gr: LOU) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed (Gr: LOU) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed (Gr: LOU) by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!.

1. Notice that 2 Pe 3 describes BOTH the "perishing (apollumi) of men" and "destruction (LOU) of creation".
2. Two different words are used. Notice that "apollumi" is used to destruction of men and that LOU is used to describe the annihilation of the earth.
3. But even better notice that the flood perished "apollumi" the earth in the time of the flood and a different Greek word is used for the annihilation "LOU" of the earth by fire.
4. The conclusion is that "apollumi" describes not the annihilation, but "making lost" both men in hell and the earth at the flood and "LOU" describes the annihilation of the earth in the end.

3089lýō – properly, loose (unleash) let go; release (unbind) so something no longer holds together; (figuratively) release what has been held back (like Christ "releasing" the seven seals in the scroll in Revelation)........Dare I say annihilate?

1 Cor 15:16~~The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
katargeitai 2673 to render inoperative, abolish.......Dare I say annihilate?

 

[gr8grace3]

. I know you said that, but i didn't find the Scripture for it. You first mentioned 1Cor 15:16 and said:"1 Cor 15:16~~The last enemy to bedestroyed is death." Was that a typo or something, and you meant another verse? I don't get that from 1Cor 15:16 which says: "16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised."

How do you come up with the death of the lost being destroyed as a possible state from the empirical fact that Christ was resurrected?

I tried again to follow your argument but found you said 1 Cor 15:22 came after 1 Cor 15:53. Huh?

And then jumped to Rev.

I'm rather confused by your flow in your argument. But I appreciate your attempt. Maybe there just some typos or something? Can you possibly clarify it?

Sorry Chessman,

1 Cor 15:26.

And look a little closer, I said ,"paul had mentioned earlier to us in 1 Cor 15:22." Sorry if it was confusing, I threw it together to quick.

If you are willing, and serious, I think my post lays it out fairly well.

The wicked are resurrected imperishable.

Death is annihilated in the lake of fire........the irony,I think. Try to think of death being gone like the annihilationists want the soul to just be gone. Death is really the thing that is annihilated, but the annihilationists still wants it to linger around some how to kill the soul!

So death is GONE. It no longer operates.

Then we have the wicked cast into the Lake of fire......with death annihilated already.

I will go over my post and fix it if I can see that it doesn't make sense. I am a little slow at times!

 

[TimothyW]

that's from a Christian world view, I even knew that in that context It meant that they had souls.

hm what does the idea of two deaths then have to be if the Christian is already raised from the dead?

That's simple, right? The Bible says that the one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death. They will not die again, since they have been raised from the dead and have eternal life in Christ. However, those who reject Christ do not have eternal life in Christ. How could they, they rejected Him? After they are raised from the dead, they will die again. They have to, they don't have eternal life. This second death is called "the second death" because it will have been the second time they died.

next, what does an he gave up the ghost mean? that is in old English. not used much.

It means that He breathed His last breath. In Greek the passage is τοῦτο δὲ εἰπὼν ἐξέπνευσεν. Literally, "Saying this, he breathed out".
Here is Stongs:
ekpneó: to breathe out, expire
Original Word: ἐκπνέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekpneó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-pneh'-o)
Short Definition: I breathe my last, expire
Definition: (lit: I breathe out), I breathe my last, expire.

the Hebrews word soul first mentioned in the bible is nephesh chaya. man became a living soul. animals have nephesh(body) so what does nephesh chaya then mean if its just flesh?

I already told you what Nephesh means. I gave you the definition. I never said it means "just flesh". It is a living thing, either a living person, or a living animal.

and from a link I mentioned in another thread.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (neshamah, pnoe) of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen. 2:7). [God put the "spirit" into Adam's nose.]

pnoe can be also a spirit, so what is that if all we are is just flesh?

Did I ever say we were just flesh? I'm saying we are alive, and we need bodies to be alive.

and

For as the body without the spirit (pneuma) is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:26). [Here "spirit" must refer to the "breath" of life.]

James is correct. The body without the spirit is dead. But this passage does not say that the spirit lives on without a body.
The Greek word for spirit and breath is the same word, pneuma.
James is not making a statement about disembodied spirits. He is talking about faith and works. Don't take it out of it's context.

I feel like I could answer all of your questions and you would still object.

 

[TimothyW]

The wicked are resurrected imperishable.

Grace, I'm sorry for butting in, but Paul never said that the wicked are raised imperishable.
Psalms 37:20 says that the wicked will perish, and Psalms 37:10 says that the wicked will be no more.

If the wicked are raised "imperishable" why do so many passages say that the wicked will perish? How can they perish if they are imperishable?

 

[jasoncran]

Hebrew for the tanach not greek. greek isn't a literal rendering.

other wise i will post that rendering for nephesh chaya. as my dog has that. since it has one. there is a big difference. animals didn't get that.it wasn't it was showing the usage, jews then didn't teach that idea of souls as you do. the early church wasn't gentile but mostly jews.

god has breathe? thanks Hebrew see him as a spirit, but he is more. oh but the earth has ruach(pneuma).see grace arguments against you idea of second death. since death is done with how can they (wicked) be raised to die again if death is gone nephesh chaya is one word they aren't different from the word nephesh. it literal means literal living soul. an animal is alive, so is a plant. and both of them have a nephesh!

 

[gr8grace3]

That's simple, right? The Bible says that the one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death. They will not die again, since they have been raised from the dead and have eternal life in Christ. However, those who reject Christ do not have eternal life in Christ. How could they, they rejected Him? After they are raised from the dead, they will die again. They have to, they don't have eternal life. This second death is called "the second death" because it will have been the second time they died.


It means that He breathed His last breath. In Greek the passage is τοῦτο δὲ εἰπὼν ἐξέπνευσεν. Literally, "Saying this, he breathed out".
Here is Stongs:
ekpneó: to breathe out, expire
Original Word: ἐκπνέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekpneó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-pneh'-o)
Short Definition: I breathe my last, expire
Definition: (lit: I breathe out), I breathe my last, expire.


I already told you what Nephesh means. I gave you the definition. I never said it means "just flesh". It is a living thing, either a living person, or a living animal.


Did I ever say we were just flesh? I'm saying we are alive, and we need bodies to be alive.


James is correct. The body without the spirit is dead. But this passage does not say that the spirit lives on without a body.
The Greek word for spirit and breath is the same word, pneuma.
James is not making a statement about disembodied spirits. He is talking about faith and works. Don't take it out of it's context.

I feel like I could answer all of your questions and you would still object.

Hello Timothy,

do think that the soul/spirit dies with the body? The Soul has to have a body in order to survive?

 

[gr8grace3]

Grace, I'm sorry for butting in, but Paul never said that the wicked are raised imperishable.
Psalms 37:20 says that the wicked will perish, and Psalms 37:10 says that the wicked will be no more.

If the wicked are raised "imperishable" why do so many passages say that the wicked will perish? How can they perish if they are imperishable?

Simple, that is talking about people BEFORE the resurrection. The resurrection of the wicked does not happen until the end.

 

[gr8grace3]

Heb 9:27~~And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

 

[jasoncran]

Heb 9:27~~And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

he believes they are raised to die. so that means god kills them twice. yet the death of them isn't mentioned

 

[jeff77]

What about the verse that says something like "Life is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity". I can't find the actual verse right now so maybe someone could help me. What I have always understood is that this verse is for the un-saved and is saying don't follow sin even though it might be pleasurable it is only for a lifetime and you will receive a punishment for it that last for eternity.

I realize that I need the verse and the verses before it and after it to determine the context but I wanted to get it down while it's fresh on my mind.

 

[TimothyW]

Hello Timothy,

do think that the soul/spirit dies with the body? The Soul has to have a body in order to survive?

I think that people need to have a living body in order to be alive. Do you have a scripture in mind that says "People can live without bodies"?

 

[TimothyW]

Simple, that is talking about people BEFORE the resurrection. The resurrection of the wicked does not happen until the end.

What? Are you saying that the wicked are raised imperishable before the resurrection? They are raised imperishable before they are raised from the dead? They are raised before they are raised?