Why Hell?

[jasoncran]

i don't try to be dogmatic on what is tormenting them. its not said.

 

[gr8grace3]

I thought you didn't believe a soul could be destroyed in hell. Read the verse. A man can't kill the soul.

So if a man kills an unbeliever ,that unbeliever is automatically saved because a man can't kill a soul?

 

[gr8grace3]

i don't try to be dogmatic on what is tormenting them. its not said.

I am not being dogmatic either, But it sure looks to me as if the wicked are left to fend for themselves without any aid from God. That has Got to be worse then we can imagine. I can only imagine how wicked it could be.

 

[jasoncran]

sheol doesn't have the idea that hades in the greek myth with the judges but i do know that each level of it in jewish thought had harder amount of punishment. the lower you went the the more the torment. i cant recall if it was angels doing that or not.

 

[turnorburn]

Its not in the bible Timothy.. i asked who taught you that doctrine..

tob

 

[TimothyW]

So if a man kills an unbeliever ,that unbeliever is automatically saved because a man can't kill a soul?

No. Read the verse. Unbelievers do not have eternal life.

 

[TimothyW]

Tob read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says.

 

[reba]

closed for clean up this type of posting should be beneath Christian brothers

 

[reba]

The question is not whether Hell is eternal torment or not. There is already a thread with this discussion going. Let's not derail this thread.

Back in the 5th post the moderator asked this thread to not be derailed. The moderators are here for the benefit of you, the members. We give our time to you in service to the Lord... Please find it your hearts to be respectful.

 

[TimothyW]

Here is Romans 6:23 in the Original Greek, plus a few translations.
τὰ γὰρ ὀψώνια τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, τὸ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ Θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ Κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NASB
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. ESV
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NIV
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. NLT
For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NET Bible

 

[gr8grace3]

Here is Romans 6:23 in the Original Greek, plus a few translations.
τὰ γὰρ ὀψώνια τῆς ἁμαρτίας θάνατος, τὸ δὲ χάρισμα τοῦ Θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰώνιος ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ Κυρίῳ ἡμῶν.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NASB
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. ESV
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NIV
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. NLT
For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NET Bible

I agree.
Heb 9:27~~And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

~~Acts 24:15~~having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

The wicked resurrected~~Rev 20:13~~The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Rev 20:14~~Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire..... Death is destroyed it is inoperative. Death cannot kill any longer.......death is swallowed up 1 Cor 15:54-55.

Death is inoperative. the wicked dead have just been resurrected imperishable then we have:

Rev 20:15~~And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.......deaths sting is gone.




1 Cor 15:54-55~~4But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable,and this mortal will have put on immortality,then will come about the saying that is written,"DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.55"O DEATH,WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY?O DEATH,WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

 

[chessman]

Rev 20:14~~Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.....

Death is destroyed it is inoperative. Death cannot kill any longer.......death is swallowed up 1 Cor 15:54-55.

Death is inoperative. the wicked dead have just been resurrected imperishable then we have:

Rev 20:15~~And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.......deaths sting is gone.

1 Cor 15:54-55~~4But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable,and this mortal will have put on immortality,then will come about the saying that is written,"DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.55"O DEATH,WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY?O DEATH,WHERE IS YOUR STING?"

I see one aspect of your argument now. so you are basically saying that when John sees a vision of the horse rider(s) named Death and Hades thrown into The Lake, that he means for us to understand that portion of his vision to mean any possibility of any further death (like a second one) of the wicked is no longer an option for God. Cause death itself just got thrown into the Lake. Is that it? I've not heard that before. Thanks. That's the type of Biblical argument I was looking for.

Would you say you are 100% sure that is what John's vision there means or just more than 50% sure?

 

[gr8grace3]

I see one aspect of your argument now. so you are basically saying that when John sees a vision of the horse rider(s) named Death and Hades thrown into The Lake, that he means for us to understand that portion of his vision to mean any possibility of any further death (like a second one) of the wicked is no longer an option for God. Cause death itself just got thrown into the Lake. Is that it? I've not heard that before. Thanks. That's the type of Biblical argument I was looking for.

Would you say you are 100% sure that is what John's vision there means or just more than 50% sure?

Yes, that is the way I see it in scriptures.

I would say 99% sure. Because we have Paul in Cor 15 describing what Isaiah said in Isaiah. Paul adds that there is a resurrection THEN death is swallowed up. And we have John seeing a resurrection and THEN death is swallowed up.

Death, we see in the original Greek as the thing that is actually annihilated, rendered inoperative. That is pretty conclusive from my perspective.

 

[chessman]

Yes, that is the way I see it in scriptures.

I would say 99% sure. Because we have Paul in Cor 15 describing what Isaiah said in Isaiah. Paul adds that there is a resurrection THEN death is swallowed up. And we have John seeing a resurrection and THEN death is swallowed up.

Death, we see in the original Greek as the thing that is actually annihilated, rendered inoperative. That is pretty conclusive from my perspective.

So then within John's vision we should see no further mention of death, right?

 

[gr8grace3]

So then within John's vision we should see no further mention of death, right?

After death is swallowed up, No. The resurrection and being imperishable is for the human race.

Rev 21:4~~and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

This is a description of the new heavens and earth.




Rev 21:5-8~~5 And He who sits on the throne said,"Behold,I am making all things new."And He said,"Write,for these words are faithful and true."6 Then He said to me, "It is done.I am the Alpha and the Omega,the beginning and the end.I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.7"He who over comes will inherit these things,and I will be his God and he will be My son.8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars,their part[will be] in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone,which is the second death."

He who overcomes WILL inherit these things. So in this warning John is not speaking about the times of the new earth and heavens. He is warning us to believe NOW or we will not inherit this new kingdom.

 

[chessman]

After death is swallowed up, No.

I would like to focus on this one point you have made concerning the meaning and as you said important question of just exactly when death is destroyed/(swallowed up) within John's vision. You have said that it's precisely at the point that the horse rider(s) Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake.

There's a second point you claimed and reclaimed above about the wicked being raised imperishable that I'd like to pursue as well later. If that's true, then they cannot die twice after all as well.

But this one point seemed more straight forward so I thought we could simply make sure that it's correct first. Because you are right, if death is no longer an option to God for the wicked's punishment, prior to their getting sent to the Lake of Fire, then I guess them getting sent there after that time must mean that they cannot really die in the Lake of Fire as their second death after all.

I see that you quoted the later mentioning of death within John's vision already. After the horse riders get thrown into The Lake, I find John continues recording his vision he says " 21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,...

So yes i agree, chapter 21 begins a portion of his vision after the point where the horse rider(s) Death and Hades have been tossed. and it is mainly about the new Earth.

But, specifically, the vision actually records John hearing what can only be Christ speaking "3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne...

And then speaking of the lost, Christ says"their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Why would Jesus say anything about "death", which it seems obvious He's speaking about the lost's tossing event AFTER your special event (The horse rider(s) getting tossed) , if it were as you say; that there's no such thing as death anymore? That doesn't make sense to me.

And furthermore, why even say "second death" of the lost as they are tossed into The Lake? I thought they were raised imperishable? What's up with # 2?

Would Jesus really say anything about death at all ["their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."] If the vision He just got through giving John of the horse riders getting tossed was the point at which death is finally destroyed, which occurs prior to the lost getting tossed?

their portion ... is the second death.

Sounds eerily similar to me to "the wages of sin is death"

 

[gr8grace3]

I would like to focus on this one point you have made concerning the meaning and as you said important question of just exactly when death is destroyed/(swallowed up) within John's vision. You have said that it's precisely at the point that the horse rider(s) Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake.

There's a second point you claimed and reclaimed above about the wicked being raised imperishable that I'd like to pursue as well later. If that's true, then they cannot die twice after all as well.

But this one point seemed more straight forward so I thought we could simply make sure that it's correct first. Because you are right, if death is no longer an option to God for the wicked's punishment, prior to their getting sent to the Lake of Fire, then I guess them getting sent there after that time must mean that they cannot really die in the Lake of Fire as their second death after all.

I see that you quoted the later mentioning of death within John's vision already. After the horse riders get thrown into The Lake, I find John continues recording his vision he says " 21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,...

So yes i agree, chapter 21 begins a portion of his vision after the point where the horse rider(s) Death and Hades have been tossed. and it is mainly about the new Earth.

But, specifically, the vision actually records John hearing what can only be Christ speaking "3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne...

And then speaking of the lost, Christ says"their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Why would Jesus say anything about "death", which it seems obvious He's speaking about the lost's tossing event AFTER your special event (The horse rider(s) getting tossed) , if it were as you say; that there's no such thing as death anymore? That doesn't make sense to me.

And furthermore, why even say "second death" of the lost as they are tossed into The Lake? I thought they were raised imperishable? What's up with # 2?

Would Jesus really say anything about death at all ["their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."] If the vision He just got through giving John of the horse riders getting tossed was the point at which death is finally destroyed, which occurs prior to the lost getting tossed?

their portion ... is the second death.

Sounds eerily similar to me to "the wages of sin is death"

hello Chessman,

This is what I see. The lake of fire is called the second death. A term used for the actual lake of fire.

Rev 20:14~~Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.

Then death and Hades were thrown into the second death.

AND I am not saying that it is NOT death for the wicked. It is spiritual death for the wicked, complete separation from God for eternity.

I am saying death for the wicked is NOT a complete and total annihilation.

Death, destroy and perish are all words that are used to "prove" the annihilationists position.

Off the top of my head, we have 3 things that are truly annihilated,death, the old earth and the old heavens.

And 2 Pet 3:6,9-12 should really clue us in:

2 Peter 3:6,9-12 "the world at that time was destroyed (Gr: apollumi), being flooded with water. ... The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish (Gr: apollumi)but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed (Gr: LOU) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed (Gr: LOU) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed (Gr: LOU) by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!.

1. Notice that 2 Pe 3 describes BOTH the "perishing (apollumi) of men" and "destruction (LOU) of creation".
2. Two different words are used. Notice that "apollumi" is used to destruction of men and that LOU is used to describe the annihilation of the earth.
3. But even better notice that the flood perished "apollumi" the earth in the time of the flood and a different Greek word is used for the annihilation "LOU" of the earth by fire.
4. The conclusion is that "apollumi" describes not the annihilation, but "making lost" both men in hell and the earth at the flood and "LOU" describes the annihilation of the earth in the end.

3089lýō – properly, loose (unleash) let go; release (unbind) so something no longer holds together; (figuratively) release what has been held back (like Christ "releasing" the seven seals in the scroll in Revelation)........Dare I say annihilate?

1 Cor 15:26~~The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
katargeitai 2673 to render inoperative, abolish.......Dare I say annihilate?

 

[chessman]

This lake of fire is the second death.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the second death.
AND I am not saying that it is NOT death for the wicked. It is spiritual death for the wicked, complete separation from God for eternity.

You mentioned previously that it is very important for us to determine the precise time when "death" is destroyed as an option for the wicked. I agree.

We could even start a new thread or PM each other, or whatever. Or just drop it. I feel basically your previous conclusion hinges on the one or two premises you have already mentioned. 1. is that Rev 20:14 teaches us the specific time that "death" (as we know it) is "swallowed up" and 2. is that the wicked are resurrected imperishable.
Can we just discuss those precise point(s) (either one or two or both) further before moving on? I'm frankly on the fence as to whether either 1 or 2 is true, just yet. But again, you might be right.

 

[gr8grace3]

I don't know if I can go much further Chessman. I believe one can only present so much and one has to accept it or not. Maybe I can Go further?

 

[jeff77]

Please forgive me if Im wrong, but from what I understand based on the post I have read the precise time when death was destroyed was when Christ rose from the grave. He defeated death for all people and they now have a choice to accept eternal life or reject Christ and be thrown into the lake of fire.