Why Hell?

[gr8grace3]

I think that people need to have a libing body in order to be alive. Do you have a scripture in mind that says "People can live without bodies"?

So Timothy that is where I see A big contradiction in your theology. And it comes from the annihilationists pet verse.

Matt 10:28~~"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So men ARE able to kill the soul?

 

[TimothyW]

What about the verse that says something like "Life is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity". I can't find the actual verse right now so maybe someone could help me. What I have always understood is that this verse is for the un-saved and is saying don't follow sin even though it might be pleasurable it is only for a lifetime and you will receive a punishment for it that last for eternity.

I realize that I need the verse and the verses before it and after it to determine the context but I wanted to get it down while it's fresh on my mind.

1 Peter 1:24?
"All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall but the word of the Lord endures forever."

 

[TimothyW]

he believes they are raised to die. so that means god kills them twice. yet the death of them isn't mentioned

Please do not say "he believes" unless you know what I believe. And you don't. You say the second death of the wicked isn't mentioned? Really? How about the second death? The second death is the second death of the wicked. How is the second death not mentioned?

 

[jeff77]

Heb 9:27~~And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

So after all people die the first death they go to either heaven or hell. There is no soul sleep in between? Then after the 2nd coming occurs the judgment. If your an unbeliever you die again and get sent back to hell? Im just trying to understand.

 

[TimothyW]

Timothy, please don't go down that route. I have no ill will towards you and am just pointing out what I see.

I feel beat up by both of you, for no reason. I'm just saying what the Bible says, and I haven't said anything that the Bible doesn't say.
John 3:16 says "whoever believes in him will not PERISH but will have eternal life". This is what I believe. I don't believe EVERYONE has eternal life, only those who believe in Jesus. I believe the rest perish. edited

 

[TimothyW]

So after all people die the first death they go to either heaven or hell. There is no soul sleep in between? Then after the 2nd coming occurs the judgment. If your an unbeliever you die again and get sent back to hell? Im just trying to understand.

No. If an unbeliever dies again, he dies again. He doesn't live forever in Hell being tortured alive forever, because he is not alive. He is dead. He has perished, just as the Bible says.

 

[TimothyW]

You guys believe whatever you want to believe. You don't have to believe what I believe.

 

[gr8grace3]

So after all people die the first death they go to either heaven or hell. There is no soul sleep in between? Then after the 2nd coming occurs the judgment. If your an unbeliever you die again and get sent back to hell? Im just trying to understand.

An unbeliever at this time, when He dies goes to hades. No soul sleep. At the GWTJ the wicked(from hades) are resurrected to imperishable beings. Death and Hades(the waiting room) are cast in the Lake of Fire. Death is gone, the wicked can't die,because Christ defeated death.Death has no victory ,even for the resurrected wicked. So the Lake of fire is the eternal abode for the resurrected wicked. Eternally separated from God.

 

[TimothyW]

Timothy, I mean no disrespect but you have to see how silly that is.

So I can Kill an unbeliever and annihilate him, since He didn't have Christ?

I didn't say "annihilate", but yes, those without Christ do not have eternal life. So when they die without Christ, they have no hope for eternal life in Christ.
I'm sorry that this seems silly to you, but how is that anything to me?
The Bible says that the message of the cross is foolishness to those who do not believe.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18
edited

 

[jasoncran]

Please do not say "he believes" unless you know what I believe. And you don't. You say the second death of the wicked isn't mentioned? Really? How about the second death? The second death is the second death of the wicked. How is the second death not mentioned?

a man is raised to die. yet where does the death of wicked mentioned?

and they were cast into gehenna were the false prophet, the beast . they were being tormented. what is the word tormented mean? if its not death then what exactly is it? does the word in greek mean grave? dead are buried where. its kinda hard to have a fleshly body in heaven since well that doesn't have air? or water or things such as the earth.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

man is where at his wicked judgement?

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

ah yes the word that you said was before the judgement but its not its after the fact! that word torment is after that fact as the devils are in there, the false prophet and the beast(a government and its leadership) but even they are merely government he the devil is being tormented. so how can man being dead go where a devil is whom is being tormented?

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/basanizo.html

to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

none of those mention a state of a grave, or death. if satan is dead and gone he wouldn't be there and this mentioning of any of those meanings wouldn't be used.

 

[TimothyW]

An unbeliever at this time, when He dies goes to hades. No soul sleep. At the GWTJ the wicked(from hades) are resurrected to imperishable beings. Death and Hades(the waiting room) are cast in the Lake of Fire. Death is gone, the wicked can't die,because Christ defeated death.Death has no victory ,even for the resurrected wicked. So the Lake of fire is the eternal abode for the resurrected wicked. Eternally separated from God.

According to the Bible, the lake of tire is the second death. This is what the Bible says. Those who go into the lake of fire are destroyed in it, they perish, just as the Bible says.
I don't care if you believe this or not. I'm just telling you what the Bible says.

 

[jasoncran]

An unbeliever at this time, when He dies goes to hades. No soul sleep. At the GWTJ the wicked(from hades) are resurrected to imperishable beings. Death and Hades(the waiting room) are cast in the Lake of Fire. Death is gone, the wicked can't die,because Christ defeated death.Death has no victory ,even for the resurrected wicked. So the Lake of fire is the eternal abode for the resurrected wicked. Eternally separated from God.

forgot the sea.

 

[TimothyW]

a man is raised to die. yet where does the death of wicked mentioned?

I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you asking "Where is the death of the wicked mentioned?"
It's mentioned many times in the Bible, but here are two, Psalm 37:20 "The wicked shall perish", Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins shall die".

I have to go.

 

[jasoncran]

I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you asking "Where is the death of the wicked mentioned?"
It's mentioned many times in the Bible, but here are two, Psalm 37:20 "The wicked shall perish", Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins shall die".

I have to go.

irrivelant verse. deal with greek word for torment that is for the devil in the lake of fire. NONE of its meanings mean death. a test, question, torment, to purge as for silver or gold but nothing in their about death. if the devil is cast into place where he is getting this then means something other then just death.

 

[gr8grace3]

According to the Bible, the lake of tire is the second death. This is what the Bible says. Those who go into the lake of fire are destroyed in it, they perish, just as the Bible says.
I don't care if you believe this or not. I'm just telling you what the Bible says.

I didn't say "annihilate", but yes, those without Christ do not have eternal life. So when they die without Christ, they have no hope for eternal life in Christ.
I'm sorry that this seems silly to you, but how is that anything to me?
The Bible says that the message of the cross is foolishness to those who do not believe.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18

It doesn't hurt me that you think this message is silly.

So Timothy, Seriously think about this. Ponder it a bit. That means that man can kill the soul if a man kills an unbeliever who does not have Christ. Which Goes against Matt 10:28~~"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[jeff77]

An unbeliever at this time, when He dies goes to hades. No soul sleep. At the GWTJ the wicked(from hades) are resurrected to imperishable beings. Death and Hades(the waiting room) are cast in the Lake of Fire. Death is gone, the wicked can't die,because Christ defeated death.Death has no victory ,even for the resurrected wicked. So the Lake of fire is the eternal abode for the resurrected wicked. Eternally separated from God.

Thank you for this scripture and explanation. Although I haven't completely made up my mind, this is probably the best way to explain eternity for the non-believers that I have heard yet.

Also I am not trying to challenge anybody here. I only wish to find the best scripture to explain to someone else why it is that I believe in eternal conscious punishment.

 

[turnorburn]

Out of curiosity who taught you the doctrine of annihilism Timothy..

tob

 

[TimothyW]

Out of curiosity who taught you the doctrine of annihilism Timothy..

tob

I read it in the Bible. Who taught you that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment?

 

[TimothyW]

So Timothy, Seriously think about this. Ponder it a bit. That means that man can kill the soul if a man kills an unbeliever who does not have Christ. Which Goes against Matt 10:28~~"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I thought you didn't believe a soul could be destroyed in hell. Read the verse. A man can't kill the soul.

 

[gr8grace3]

Thank you for this scripture and explanation. Although I haven't completely made up my mind, this is probably the best way to explain eternity for the non-believers that I have heard yet.

Also I am not trying to challenge anybody here. I only wish to find the best scripture to explain to someone else why it is that I believe in eternal conscious punishment.

Jeff, I would like to add, that I believe that it is eternal separation from God. It is not God putting his hand on the wicked and tormenting them. it is God completely removing His hand of protection forever. He leaves the wicked to themselves. That is probably worse then what God would do if He was actually physically punishing someone.