Why I am not a theological liberal.

[JLB]

JLB,

In NT Greek, the term from which we get “heresy” is hairesis. Arndt & Gingrich’s Greek Lexicon (1957:23) states that hairesis means ‘sect, party, school’. It was used of the Sadduccees in Acts 5:17; of the Pharisees in Acts 15:5. Of the Christians in Acts 24:5. It is used of a heretical sect or those with destructive opinions in 2 Peter 2:1 (“destructive heresies” ESV).

The article on hairesis in Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (1964:182f) states that its “usage in Acts corresponds exactly to that of Josephus and the earlier Rabbis” but the development of the Christian sense of heresy does not parallel this Rabbinic use.

When the NT ekklesia (church) came into being, there was no place for hairesis. They were opposed to each other. This author states that “the greater seriousness consists in the fact that hairesis affect the foundation of the church in doctrine (2 Pt. 2:1), and that they do so in such a fundamental way as to give rise to a new society alongside the ekklesia” (Kittel 1964:183).

From the NT, we see the term, heresy, being used to mean what Paul called strange doctrines, different doctrine, doctrines of demons, every wind of doctrine, etc. (I Timothy 1:3; 4:1;6:3; Ephesians 4:14), as contrasted with sound doctrine, our doctrine, the doctrine conforming to godliness, the doctrine of God, etc. (I Timothy 4:6; 6:1,3; II Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9; 2:1, 10).

Oz

I read the article you just quoted and quoted myself in my post.


Did you read my Post?


I doesn't seem so.

 

[JLB]

Can you demonstrate how the Holy Spirit defined heresy and settled what is or is not the Christian faith throughout history?

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,...
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Tim 4:1,16

• Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine, Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Anything that is not the doctrine of Christ, is heresy.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock, But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
Luke 6:46-49


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

I read the article you just quoted and quoted myself in my post.


Did you read my Post?


I doesn't seem so.

JLB,

I most definitely read your response. However, you only covered a brief definition of "heresy" in Greek. I gave a more comprehensive definition in citing the Greek dictionaries of Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich and 2 entries from Kittel and Friedrich's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

When I want a brief definition of an American word, I go to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary online. For a more comprehensive definition I check with my cumbersome version of the Webster Unabridged Dictionary or The Oxford English Dictionary.

In my response to you, I provided a comprehensive definition of heresy - based on Greek dictionaries.

Please don't accuse me of not reading your post. That's a fallacy of arguing from silence.

Oz

 

[Fastfredy0]

Who gets to decide what is or is not heresy?

Who gets to decide what is or is not the Christian faith?

God does. Man SUCKS at determining God's truth as demonstrated by the diversity of beliefs. There possibly is a small minority get it right (getting "it right" being subjective/difficult to define).
I doubt anyone gets everything perfectly. I doubt even the apostle Paul got everything perfectly (not referring to scripture), but perhaps the Spirit guided every word he said.
Aside: Moses screwed it (God's message) up and thus didn't make it to the promised land).

 

[Fastfredy0]

I had this article published today in On Line Opinion, "Why I am not a theologically liberal person."

From the article:
liberalism's view of Scripture includes:

• An anti-supernatural basis of the liberal view of Scripture;
• Cultural accommodation is necessary;
• Negative criticism of Scripture;
• The Bible is not the Word of God;
• The Bible is fallible and errant;
• The origin of Scripture is not by divine inspiration;
• Sola Scriptura (the Bible is the only written and infallible authority for faith) is rejected.
• The Bible contains contradictions, including scientific errors;
• There is immorality in the Old Testament
• Human reason is prominent in interpreting the Bible;
• There is a strong emphasis on human experience.

2

Well, the above doctrines make our disagreements on this forum seem petty. *giggle*

 

[JLB]

JLB,

I most definitely read your response. However, you only covered a brief definition of "heresy" in Greek. I gave a more comprehensive definition in citing the Greek dictionaries of Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich and 2 entries from Kittel and Friedrich's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

When I want a brief definition of an American word, I go to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary online. For a more comprehensive definition I check with my cumbersome version of the Webster Unabridged Dictionary or The Oxford English Dictionary.

In my response to you, I provided a comprehensive definition of heresy - based on Greek dictionaries.

Please don't accuse me of not reading your post. That's a fallacy of arguing from silence.

Oz

Again, here is my statement, would care to address what I actually said, rather than what I didn't say?

However this statement … Heresy kills denominations, seems diametrically opposed to the very definition of heresy.


Heresy is what creates denominations.


A denomination is just another term for sect. It’s a group or division within the body of Christ, based on a different belief or doctrine.


Heresy creates division, the very thing a denomination is.





JLB

 

[crossnote]

crossnote,

These secularists in "the Comments section" have no regard for the Scriptures as breathed out by God. Scripture tells us how to approach them:

15 but in your hearts honour Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defence to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, 16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behaviour in Christ may be put to shame (1 Pet 3:15-16 ESV).​

This is an opportunity for us to engage in "defence to anyone who for a reason for the hope" you have. I encourage you to join with me in the ministry of apologetics in On Line Opinion.

This Australian secular e-journal is open to receiving creative (and provocative) content in an article.

Oz

Ozpen, I would agree that gentleness and respect is the way to treat secularists, but when it comes to theological liberals who twist God's Word into chocolate pretzels, even Jesus and Paul showed very little 'gentleness' to these Word Twisters.
In any case I know many 'apologists' use that verse...unfortunately out of context. The context actually is 'our behavior under suffering' (maintaining gentleness and respect). Look...

Who then will harm you if you are devoted to what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear or be intimidated, but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, ready at any time to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. Yet do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that when you are accused, those who disparage your good conduct in Christ will be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
(1Pe 3:13-18)

It really has little to do with giving an 'apologia' in the textbook sense.
.

 

[OzSpen]

Ozpen, I would agree that gentleness and respect is the way to treat secularists, but when it comes to theological liberals who twist God's Word into chocolate pretzels, even Jesus and Paul showed very little 'gentleness' to these Word Twisters.
In any case I know many 'apologists' use that verse...unfortunately out of context. The context actually is 'our behavior under suffering' (maintaining gentleness and respect). Look...

Who then will harm you if you are devoted to what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear or be intimidated, but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, ready at any time to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. Yet do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that when you are accused, those who disparage your good conduct in Christ will be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God’s will, than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
(1Pe 3:13-18)

It really has little to do with giving an 'apologia' in the textbook sense.
.

crossnote,

I agree. Making your presentation with gentleness and respect in context has to do with how we do apologetics - our defense of the faith.

A screaming, angry presentation proves nothing and will get nowhere.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

However this statement … Heresy kills denominations, seems diametrically opposed to the very definition of heresy.

JLB,

That's not so when you understand the more comprehensive definition of "heresy" that was from theological dictionaries - extensive lexicons.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves" (2 Pet 2:1 NIV).

Those who introduce "destructive heresies" can happen with groups like the JWs, Christadelphians and they spin off into heretical denominations, but this is now the same as developing sects like the Pharisees, Sadducees, and early Christians.

Oz

 

[JLB]

JLB,

That's not so when you understand the more comprehensive definition of "heresy" that was from theological dictionaries - extensive lexicons.

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves" (2 Pet 2:1 NIV).

Those who introduce "destructive heresies" can happen with groups like the JWs, Christadelphians and they spin off into heretical denominations, but this is now the same as developing sects like the Pharisees, Sadducees, and early Christians.

Oz

So you believe, based on the “more comprehensive definition” of the word heresy, that the different denominations come from people being unified in their doctrine and following the doctrine of Christ?





JLB

 

[jasonc]

unified .in doctrine ?

ok that means if I teach minor differences then you on the nephillum as some do ,I know these ,I'm lost?

or eschatology ,the way the gift of the holy ghost is manifested ,some say it isn't with utterance as often taught ,that a.w. tozer,a.b.simpson,or how much water to baptize ?

so yes you do just that all must be in unison as you or any interpret the bible

So you believe, based on the “more comprehensive definition” of the word heresy, that the different denominations come from people being unified in their doctrine and following the doctrine of Christ?





JLB

 

[jasonc]

I think the myriads of churches near other is not always of God but this isn't new in my town history in 1919 population of 89 at the time of charter ,we had the Baptist ,Methodist ,colored Baptist church ,community church,Lutheran and the Catholic church within walking distance if each other .I have walked from the Baptist to the Methodist ,community church reading meters .

 

[JLB]

unified .in doctrine ?

ok that means if I teach minor differences then you on the nephillum as some do ,I know these ,I'm lost?

or eschatology ,the way the gift of the holy ghost is manifested ,some say it isn't with utterance as often taught ,that a.w. tozer,a.b.simpson,or how much water to baptize ?

so yes you do just that all must be in unison as you or any interpret the bible

What did Christ teach His Apostles, so they could teach their disciples?

His Gospel:

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9


His Doctrine:

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




His Commandments:

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



If you study the New Testament and what His Apostles taught, you will find three distinct categories of the Truth, that are important to our salvation.



Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:10

• by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you

JLB

 

[jasonc]

What did Christ teach His Apostles, so they could teach their disciples?

His Gospel:

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9


His Doctrine:

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




His Commandments:

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



If you study the New Testament and what His Apostles taught, you will find three distinct categories of the Truth, that are important to our salvation.



Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:10

• by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you

JLB

the Methodist ,the reformed ,the Baptists ,and non demonition do no such thing

look I worked for the afformemtuoned Baptist church ,my brothers new pastor is Methodist and anticomplementarian,I attend a reformed church .

my pastor works with my brothers church and any church to reach the lost ,we share and are tied to a Spanish anticomplementaruan church . so therefore you just negated your own definition of heresy .

oz pen said in context it was false teachings . not minor differences.

my church doesn't require you to be reformed to be a member ,I'm not .I don't push it .only believe the 5 solas.

I can post the membership questions to a teen last week

 

[JLB]

the Methodist ,the reformed ,the Baptists ,and non demonition do no such thing

Do no such what thing, Jason?

What do these sects “not do”?

 

[jasonc]

Do no such what thing, Jason?

What do these sects “not do”?

simple put, what is the name of your church and post any doctrinal link ,statement and do you 100 per cent agree with your pastor

there's never been people who left over minor doctrine ,I wouldn't attend a female led pastor church .I may visit ,but I won't . I was under one for years .

can't logically argue this ,if a man desires to be a bishop he must be a man of one wife . my brother literally called a pastor and elder (bishop )

plenty of female led charismatic churches do that and its common.

I strongly disagree .

the chrustian and missionary alliance do it ,the church of god cleveland tn.Methodist do that .

you can't call denomations heresies ,when you attend a local church that will differ them others .is the Baptist ministers here lost ?
if not then what of them ?a heretic is not saved .

a Baptist unless it's said by them aren't heretic in that they disobey or command you to ignore the commands of God .

they have differences but not once have I heard to ignore any command .of course some take it too far .bit fences of doctrines taught that differ in the minors simply don't make you a heretic .

 

[Walpole]

The answer is in the bible, but you are not going to like it. No one is.

Where is the verse which describes the mechanism by which God decides?

 

[Walpole]

God does. Man SUCKS at determining God's truth as demonstrated by the diversity of beliefs. There possibly is a small minority get it right (getting "it right" being subjective/difficult to define).
I doubt anyone gets everything perfectly. I doubt even the apostle Paul got everything perfectly (not referring to scripture), but perhaps the Spirit guided every word he said.
Aside: Moses screwed it (God's message) up and thus didn't make it to the promised land).

Please fill in the blank…

The means by which God does is __________.

 

[Walpole]

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,...
Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Tim 4:1,16

• Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine, Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Anything that is not the doctrine of Christ, is heresy.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock, But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
Luke 6:46-49


JLB

Thanks for the random verses, but I’m looking for specific answers to my questions. Here they are again…


—> Can you demonstrate how the Holy Spirit defined heresy and settled what is or is not the Christian faith throughout history?

–> For example, when Arianism was rampant in Christendom in the fourth century, when, where and how did the Holy Spirit intercede and condemn it?

 

[for_his_glory]

OzSpen I am in agreement with your article as while I was reading it Isaiah Chapter 28, especially vs. 10-11, came to mind how God judges His church just as He did Ephraim and Jerusalem from falling away from Him.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

God's truth has been taught time over time, word upon word since the beginning of time, but yet man has always rejected the truth in favor of their own theological liberal concepts of interpretations of a society that follows heretical socially acceptable teachings of man. What God is speaking to His true church are strange tongues to those who are not His own, but think they are.

There are around 15 different church's in my small town of 3500 people and not one can agree with another concerning the doctrines of there assembly.

2Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Timothy 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.