Why I am not a theological liberal.

[Walpole]

Walpole,

God has placed teachers in the church to guide us into all truth through the Scriptures:



In my part of the world there is so little teaching in the churches, based on exposition of Scripture. If it weren't for allert churches in the 4th century, Arianism would not have been nipped in the bud.

It take alert people, especially elders, to pick up theological error in the church. They've done it with Arianism in the past. How would you recognize the errors of the JWs and Mormons? There is an active Christadelphian group where I live. They run an aged care facility.

There is an extra responsibility for all Christians - described in Acts 17:11 (NIV), "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

All Christians have the responsibility to examine the Scriptures daily of what the pastor preaches to consider if what he/she says agrees with Scripture.

Oz

But if all Christians are charged with examining their preacher's teaching, doesn't that then make everything relative? For example, if my preacher says something I disagree with, can I just presume I'm right and he's wrong?

There must be some organ, body or mechanism that can declare what is or is not the Christian faith.

 

[Walpole]

I don't want to turn this into a discussion on baptism, but I just want to use this as an example to demonstrate that the Scriptures alone do not resolve questions as to what is or is not the Christian faith.

Two of the largest denominations the United States are the Southern Baptists and Lutherans. Both believe in sola Scriptura. Yet here are their diametrically opposed teachings on baptism:

Lutheran doctrine: "This is the simplest way to put it: the power, effect, benefit, fruit, and purpose of baptism is that it saves. For no one is baptized in order to become a prince, but as the words say, ‘to be saved.’ To be saved, as everyone knows, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death and the devil, to enter into Christ’s kingdom, and to live with him forever." (Martin Luther, Large Catechism)

Southern Baptist doctrine: "Baptism doesn't make you a believer - it shows that you already believe. Baptism does not "save" you, only your faith in Christ does that. Baptism is like a wedding ring - it's the outward symbol of the commitment you make in your heart." (SBC, How to Become a Christian, Baptism)


Using the Scriptures alone, tell me who is correct and who is in error? Which one is the actual Christian faith?

 

[Hopeful]

so every Christian should be identical and perfect in the bible understand ,worship styles and no possible cultural influences in your view.

I can assure you black and Hispanic believers are not quiet in worship and whites are .in general this is true . I know black believers who are Anglican and sound Pentecostal ,haitan Methodist who are the same .

there are variations here .liberty in the nonessentials .

Yes, they should be identical and perfect in their bible understandings.
Worship styles and cultural differences don't matter.
It is written..."And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." (1 Cor 12:5-6)

 

[Quantrill]

But if all Christians are charged with examining their preacher's teaching, doesn't that then make everything relative? For example, if my preacher says something I disagree with, can I just presume I'm right and he's wrong?

There must be some organ, body or mechanism that can declare what is or is not the Christian faith.

Your solution of 'one body' to determine what is true and Christian has never worked and will never work this side of the Second Coming.

It didn't work with Adam and Eve. It didn't work with Israel. It didn't work with the Church. No matter where the supposed true body is, there is satan also with 'yea hath God said'. And if there is only one body dictating what is true, then when it is infected by the 'yea hath God said', then all are affected.

And of course the Roman Church is the perfect example.

The Christian can examine the preachers teaching and compare it with Scripture. If he disagrees with the preacher then it remains for him to search it out further as he has the Bible and the Holy Spirit. He does so by his own study, and by seeking others older in the faith, either personally or by commentaries.

After a certain time the believer will come to a decision as to what he disagreed with concerning the pastors teaching. Whether the pastor was right or wrong in this area. If it is important enough to leave the Church, for example, if the pastor taught women should be allowed to preach in the assembly, then the Christian leaves.

And next time this believer hears a Bible teacher say women can preach in the assembly, then he already has done the study and knows immediately that that is wrong. He doesn't have to assume. He knows the Scripture concerning it. He now listens to see if any offer any new evidence in Scripture to support such teaching which would overturn what he already has determined.

Seeing no new Scripture has been presented that would change his mind, then he leaves and goes and find a fellowship of believers of like faith. The many denominations are a protection against heresy. They are not an impairment to the truth.

Quantrill

 

[OzSpen]

Agreed



Agreed ... Scripture reveals 99% of what we know of God. (99% being a subjective estimate)

FFredy0,

Don't omit the revelation of God in creation. See Rom 1 (NIV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

But if all Christians are charged with examining their preacher's teaching, doesn't that then make everything relative? For example, if my preacher says something I disagree with, can I just presume I'm right and he's wrong?

There must be some organ, body or mechanism that can declare what is or is not the Christian faith.

Wal,

It's not a comparison with your subjective knowledge but a comparison of your preacher's content with what the Scriptures state. Every person has the responsibility of checking out the content of the preacher's preaching.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not interested in your opinion. You said God Himself determines what is or is not heresy. How, when and where did God declare Arianism a heresy?

Wal,

How do you know Arius was a heretic? What did he teach that was contrary to Scripture?

Oz

 

[D-D-W]

Amen. The Pharisee’s plotted to kill Jesus Christ, because they didn’t like His doctrine.

Actually, our Lord's DOCTRINE fell neatly between the 2 major schools of pharasaism, School of Shammai and School of Hillel.

What they could not swallow was that He claimed to be Divine. That is a statement of identity, not doctrine.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

I never said that. I never intended that. You have invented the content of your reply about my post. If you continue this irrational way of interacting with me, I will not reply further.

I've been trying to open ways of communication with you but you're closing the door on me.

Oz

Again, here is my response from post #5.

I like this dialog about heresy.

Here is my discussion point.

However this statement … Heresy kills denominations, seems diametrically opposed to the very definition of heresy.


Heresy is what creates denominations.


A denomination is just another term for sect. It’s a group or division within the body of Christ, based on a different belief or doctrine.


Heresy creates division, the very thing a denomination is.

If you care to discuss with me the point from your post then please address my statement.


If you do not wish to discuss this point from your post, then continue to ignore it.


It’s your choice.






JLB

 

[JLB]

Who gets to decide what is or is not heresy?

The Holy Spirit.


I promise you, the day will come when we stand before God, and He judges us according to our deeds; according to what we have done.


Those who promoted heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21



Those who promote heresies will go to the same place as murderers, adulterers, fornicators, drunkerds.



Do you understand what the term “not inherit the kingdom of God” means?






JLB

 

[JLB]

Actually, our Lord's DOCTRINE fell neatly between the 2 major schools of pharasaism, School of Shammai and School of Hillel.

Ok, please share the scripture that says…

our Lord's DOCTRINE fell neatly between the 2 major schools of pharasaism, School of Shammai and School of Hillel.



Are you confusing the scriptures with the Talmud?


The pharisee’s chose the Talmud, and the commandments of men, rather than the word of God.

• For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
“I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. John 5:39-46







JLB

 

[D-D-W]

ok that means if I teach minor differences then you on the nephillum as some do ,I know these ,I'm lost?

or eschatology ,the way the gift of the holy ghost is manifested ,some say it isn't with utterance as often taught ,that a.w. tozer,a.b.simpson,or how much water to baptize ?

When Paul wrote in Ephesians that we were to "maintain the unity of the spirit .... until we all attain to the unity of the faith;" (Eph 4.3, 13) what did that unity look like to him? What examples did he have?

The grandfather of his mentor Gamaliel was Rabbi Hillel. Hillel's best friend was Rabbi Shammai; but the 2 men argued doctrines continually. The ancient Jewish writings log over 100 different doctrinal disputes between them. But they did not let their doctrinal differences diminish their friendship, nor their vision of a unified Israeli people. I believe that is exactly what Paul was talking about.

 

[D-D-W]

Ok, please share the scripture that says…
our Lord's DOCTRINE fell neatly between the 2 major schools of pharasaism, School of Shammai and School of Hillel.

Not possible since the Schools of Shammai and Hillel were common knowledge, along with what each taught. Even in the diaspora towns where Paul evangelized the gentiles. No need to repeat it in scripture.

Are you confusing the scriptures with the Talmud?

The scriptures are where we find Our Lord's teachings. The Talmuds are where we find the teachings of Hillel and Shammai. It is not hard to compare the 2 and see where everything falls out.

 

[JLB]

When Paul wrote in Ephesians that we were to "maintain the unity of the spirit .... until we all attain to the unity of the faith;" (Eph 4.3, 13) what did that unity look like to him? What examples did he have?

Jesus Christ and His teachings directly to Paul.


But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
Galatians 1:11-17



Paul learned directly from the Lord.


I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14


Do you believe Gamaliel or Hillel or Shammai taught him that any animal was ok to eat?


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


Do you believe Gamaliel or Hillel or Shammai taught him about the resurrection of the dead, and the second coming of Christ?





JLB

 

[jasonc]

When Paul wrote in Ephesians that we were to "maintain the unity of the spirit .... until we all attain to the unity of the faith;" (Eph 4.3, 13) what did that unity look like to him? What examples did he have?

The grandfather of his mentor Gamaliel was Rabbi Hillel. Hillel's best friend was Rabbi Shammai; but the 2 men argued doctrines continually. The ancient Jewish writings log over 100 different doctrinal disputes between them. But they did not let their doctrinal differences diminish their friendship, nor their vision of a unified Israeli people. I believe that is exactly what Paul was talking about.

unity ,I can be unified in my my marriage in not like or enjoy my spouse's hobbies or habits .

sometimes other push issues to much . would you enjoy fellowship with a vegan only served food ?

I would be noticed there

 

[JLB]

Not possible since the Schools of Shammai and Hillel were common knowledge, along with what each taught. Even in the diaspora towns where Paul evangelized the gentiles. No need to repeat it in scripture.

Yet we see no scripture that quotes from their writings.


If you choose to follow the doctrine of man, then that is your choice.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The scriptures are where we find Our Lord's teachings. The Talmuds are where we find the teachings of Hillel and Shammai.

The Talmud is where find that Jesus was considered a false teacher and a deceiver.


The Talmud is where we find that those whom you follow consider Jesus is in hell, rather than being resurrected and seated on God’s throne.



WAKE UP!




JLB

 

[D-D-W]

Where is the verse which describes the mechanism by which God decides?

OK you asked for it. But I told you, you are not going to like it.

Romans 3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

There you have it. It is up to JEWS to determine the proper interpretation of scripture. God entrusted that to THEM and THEM ONLY. Since Paul writes in chapter 11 of the same book that the "gifts and callings of God are irrevocable," that means HE has NOT TAKEN AWAY His entrusting the Scriptures to the circumcised.

But if you argue that no Jew has the right or the wherewithal to understand and interpret New Covenant Scriptures, then you need to see the necessity for a New Covenant Judaism.

 

[D-D-W]

The Talmud is where find that Jesus was considered a false teacher and a deceiver.
The Talmud is where we find that those whom you follow consider Jesus is in hell, rather than being resurrected and seated on God’s throne.

The Talmuds are definately a mixed bag. I am not saying anyone should swallow anything wholesale from those writings. BUT I am saying there is helpful historical information there, such as what Shammai and Hillel taught.

Are you saying those men taught our Lord is in hell?

 

[JLB]

Are you saying those men taught our Lord is in hell?

Again, the Talmud teaches our Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, is a false teacher, and a deceiver, and that He is in hell.

Judaism teaches that Jesus is not the Messiah, nor the Son of God.


JLB