Ty Watching Thomas. Been through it a couple of years ago with the left hip and also had both knees replaced. It's no fun, that's for sure, but I'm a quick healer.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Why I can't believe in rapture theory
- Thread starter joseph lentz
- Start date
Going back to the original OP, I would counter: Why I believe in the Church Body of Christ being caught away (raptured) before the Tribulation.
As far as we know, all will die before being resurrected, except what Paul reveals in 1 Cor. 15:51-54, a mystery (secret) that those alive when Christ comes to the air, will be changed, after the dead in Christ are raised incorruptible, and together in the clouds meet the Lord in the air. Ref. 1 Thes. 4:15-18.
The church body of Christ is a special assembly and surely will be caught away before the tribulation.
God has a purpose for the church: He sees us raised together with Christ sitting together with Christ in the heavenlies, Ref, Eph. 2:6-7, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of His grace toward us through Christ Jesus.
And further, that the manifold wisdom of God might be known to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies, through the church, Ref, Eph. 3:10.
Our future is there in the two ages to come, not on the Millennial earth.
As far as we know, all will die before being resurrected, except what Paul reveals in 1 Cor. 15:51-54, a mystery (secret) that those alive when Christ comes to the air, will be changed, after the dead in Christ are raised incorruptible, and together in the clouds meet the Lord in the air. Ref. 1 Thes. 4:15-18.
The church body of Christ is a special assembly and surely will be caught away before the tribulation.
God has a purpose for the church: He sees us raised together with Christ sitting together with Christ in the heavenlies, Ref, Eph. 2:6-7, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of His grace toward us through Christ Jesus.
And further, that the manifold wisdom of God might be known to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies, through the church, Ref, Eph. 3:10.
Our future is there in the two ages to come, not on the Millennial earth.
n2thelight
Member
Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
What part of after I'm I not getting????
Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
What part of after I'm I not getting????
Hi Bick, please study these scriptures carefully:
The Church, which represents the bride of Christ through the Spiritual rebirth of John 3:3-6 by that of Romans 10:9, 10, are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30, either asleep in their graves or alive at Christ coming. That day of redemption comes on the last day, John 6:40, when Christ returns and makes an end to all abominations (end to sin) as all Gods enemies will have then become the footstool of Christ, Psalms 110:1; Luke 20:42,43 as they are destroyed forever and remembered no more and then Christ will reign here on earth with all the saints of God forever.
Many teach that the Church will be Raptured out of here before Gods wrath (tribulation), but according to these scriptures the body of Christ who are still alive at Christ coming will be here on earth during the time of the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen nor will ever see again, Matthew 24:21.
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming
Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days
Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets
Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles
Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors
Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about the beast out of the sea that gives power to the beast out of the earth as we are warned to not take its mark
Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children
Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. If Christ returns in pretrib rapture then at that time the door of Salvation will be closed.
Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation as mystery Babylon has been described and destroyed as we have not yet been caught up to be with the Lord until the last day.
Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring through Gods mighty wrath and refusing the mark of the beast
Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured all things before the coming of the Lord.
Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth when the books are opened
The Church, which represents the bride of Christ through the Spiritual rebirth of John 3:3-6 by that of Romans 10:9, 10, are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30, either asleep in their graves or alive at Christ coming. That day of redemption comes on the last day, John 6:40, when Christ returns and makes an end to all abominations (end to sin) as all Gods enemies will have then become the footstool of Christ, Psalms 110:1; Luke 20:42,43 as they are destroyed forever and remembered no more and then Christ will reign here on earth with all the saints of God forever.
Many teach that the Church will be Raptured out of here before Gods wrath (tribulation), but according to these scriptures the body of Christ who are still alive at Christ coming will be here on earth during the time of the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen nor will ever see again, Matthew 24:21.
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming
Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days
Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets
Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles
Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors
Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about the beast out of the sea that gives power to the beast out of the earth as we are warned to not take its mark
Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children
Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. If Christ returns in pretrib rapture then at that time the door of Salvation will be closed.
Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation as mystery Babylon has been described and destroyed as we have not yet been caught up to be with the Lord until the last day.
Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring through Gods mighty wrath and refusing the mark of the beast
Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured all things before the coming of the Lord.
Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth when the books are opened
Hi, Bick here. May I say, that I would encourage all Bible students to referoto the most literal translations where applicable.
You know, FHG, the key element in this discussion is that Jesus Christ came unto his own, Israel, and his message was for them to see (enjoy) the kingdom of God (the heavens) was to be "born anew" just as he told Nicodemus, a teacher of Israel, in John 3:3-7.
It only makes sense, to me, that the prophecies proclaimed in the 4 Gospels are basically about Israel.
Look at the "good news" Jesus preached: "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Mat.4:17, AV.
All this was before the cross.
Concern Rom. 10:9,10: I see it as a great gospel message, particularly for the Jews, for that is whom Paul is addressing, but I don't see anything about "sealed unto the day of redemption.
Certainly Eph. 4:30 assures us that we are "sealed unto the day of redemption." And since Paul is our apostle and teacher I must listen to him: our day of redemption is the "rapture", the catching away of the church body of Christ (whether dead or alive) to meet the Lord in the air. (1 Thes 4:15-17).
Concerning John 6:39-40: isn't Jesus assuring the Jewish multitudes that all those given him, he would lose none, because even if they die, he will raise them up at the last day. And the "last day" has to take place on earth after he returns in power and great glory.
And this is the age to come.
But the church body of Christ is in the heavens for the ages (at least two) to come (Eph. 2:6, 7), so we can't be part of that resurrection on earth.
Continuing: in Acts 14:22, just because Paul says the disciples must go through many tribulations, l don't see that this is referring to The Tribulation.
My friend, the rest of the verses quoted have to do with Israel. The last 7 years of this age are often called Daniel's 70th week, and when he speaks of "his people", lt has to mean Israel. IMO, Revelation is concerned with Israel, the Nations, and the Earth.
I recommend The Apocalypse by E.W. Bullinger, the best commentary on Revelation
that I know of. God bless you.
My friend, the rest of the verses quoted have to do with Israel. The last 7 years of this age are often called Daniel's 70th week, and when he speaks of "his people", lt has to mean Israel. IMO, Revelation is concerned with Israel, the Nations, and the Earth.
I recommend The Apocalypse by E.W. Bullinger, the best commentary on Revelation
that I know of. God bless you.
Last edited:
Bick, with all due respect you really can not tell anyone what Bible to use as that is one's own preference. Personally I use the KJV and the Jerusalem Bible.
Israel is mainly mentioned in the scriptures, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him. This is why our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.
It would seem that all things were settled around Israel for that is the beginning of Jesus ministry, but Jesus didn't come just for the Jew, but for all people as no flesh can be justified by the law(Jew and Gentile) for the law is the knowledge of sin Romans 3:19-31
Never said Romans 10:9, 10 said we are sealed unto the day of redemption as these verses speak of how to be Spiritually born again. I did post Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
No Jesus is not only assuring the Jewish multitude, but both Jew and Gentile as scripture says all, John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Heavenly places means the thoughts of our mind that we are in Christ and He in us. John 3:13 says no one has ever ascended up to heaven other than He (Jesus) who has come down from heaven. When this physical body dies it is only our soul/breath that returns back to God who preserves it for judgement, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7
Israel is mainly mentioned in the scriptures, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him. This is why our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.
It would seem that all things were settled around Israel for that is the beginning of Jesus ministry, but Jesus didn't come just for the Jew, but for all people as no flesh can be justified by the law(Jew and Gentile) for the law is the knowledge of sin Romans 3:19-31
Never said Romans 10:9, 10 said we are sealed unto the day of redemption as these verses speak of how to be Spiritually born again. I did post Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
No Jesus is not only assuring the Jewish multitude, but both Jew and Gentile as scripture says all, John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Heavenly places means the thoughts of our mind that we are in Christ and He in us. John 3:13 says no one has ever ascended up to heaven other than He (Jesus) who has come down from heaven. When this physical body dies it is only our soul/breath that returns back to God who preserves it for judgement, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7
new covenant preacher
Member
Excellent response there absolutely is a gathering of the elect, like you stated "at the coming of the Lord, after the tribulation"
The Pre tribulation Rapture deception is a false hope that many cling to. The tribulations that once strengthened Christianity, are now avoided at all costs.
The Pre tribulation Rapture deception teaches a gathering of God's Elect before the return of Christ. This is not an option or a possibility, it is a blatant lie.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption (1 Cor 15:50).
The kingdom of God is wherever Christ is, and He brings this kingdom to us, as opposed to taking us to it.
Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
The Pre tribulation Rapture deception is a false hope that many cling to
Christ said, "when you see these things come to pass then look up for your redemption is at hand." These things represent the events of the great tribulation, so then the Pre tribulation Rapture deception represents yet another false teaching.
When we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8). However at the end of this age we shall be with Him in a transformed spirit, soul and body (1 Thes 5:23).
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The timing of when the Elect are changed is obviously at the end of the tribulation period, which has a duration of three and one half years.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 10:7, refers to Rev 11:15, which is the seventh trumpet. This is also a reference to the last trumpet mentioned in 1Cor 15:52.
The last trump is at the end of The Great Tribulation period on earth, when we shall be changed, and put on incorruption and immortality. The Pre tribulation Rapture deception is a heresy, and is one of many false beliefs adhered to by those who are merely playing church.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Our redemption and Salvation are one in the same and are realized upon Christ’s second coming. Where our Lord is, there also is His kingdom. His first coming was to allow for our salvation, and the second will be to bring our salvation.
The Pre tribulation Rapture deception allows for a certain group to escape the judgment, which is impossible.
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which are dead in Jesus will God bring with him.
The dead in Christ, are the first to put on incorruption and immortality. Contrary to the Pre tribulation Rapture deception teaching, Christ descends from heaven with the elect, He does not take anyone up to Heaven (1 Cor 15:42-53, 1 Thes 4:13-17).
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
Is it really plausible that Christ would both bring the dead with Him to earth, and then takes those from earth up to heaven? The Pre tribulation Rapture deception story quickly looses credibility in light of the true teachings of Christ Jesus.
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.
If we truly were taken to heaven as taught by the Pre tribulation Rapture deception group, Christ would not need to bring anyone to earth.
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This verse above is the primary one used by those who teach the Pre tribulation Rapture deception. After the tribulation, the Lord returns in a cloud, and all eyes shall see Him (Rev 1:7). There is no secret gathering, and Christ only returns once in a very visible manner. It also should be noted that Christ will return to this earth a second time, and nowhere in scripture is it ever implied that He ever returns to Heaven.
Mark 13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
To attempt to justify a Pre tribulation Rapture deception requires the destruction of a lot of Scripture
- We are not taken up to the kingdom of heaven, but rather Christ brings the kingdom to us.
- Wherever Christ is there the Elect will be also, the Elect are the ones left behind. Those taken are ushered into hell, to await the second death (Rev 19:20, 20:6, 20:10-15).
- The elect are to reign with Christ for a thousand years. There is only one resurrection for those who are accounted worthy to reign with Christ. The Pre tribulation Rapture deception requires two resurrections. (Rev 20:5-6. Luke 20:35-36).
- The Pre tribulation Rapture deception requires a third advent of Christ, which is not taught as a true doctrine.
The Words of Truth that Jesus spoke do not allow for the Pre tribulation Rapture deception. This fairy tale is not a part of the Gospel message.
Excellent response there absolutely is a gathering of the elect, like you stated "at the coming of the Lord, after the tribulation"
The Pre tribulation Rapture deception is a false hope that many cling to. The tribulations that once strengthened Christianity, are now avoided at all costs.
The Pre tribulation Rapture deception teaches a gathering of God's Elect before the return of Christ. This is not an option or a possibility, it is a blatant lie.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption (1 Cor 15:50).
The kingdom of God is wherever Christ is, and He brings this kingdom to us, as opposed to taking us to it.
Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
The Pre tribulation Rapture deception is a false hope that many cling to
Christ said, "when you see these things come to pass then look up for your redemption is at hand." These things represent the events of the great tribulation, so then the Pre tribulation Rapture deception represents yet another false teaching.
When we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8). However at the end of this age we shall be with Him in a transformed spirit, soul and body (1 Thes 5:23).
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The timing of when the Elect are changed is obviously at the end of the tribulation period, which has a duration of three and one half years.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 10:7, refers to Rev 11:15, which is the seventh trumpet. This is also a reference to the last trumpet mentioned in 1Cor 15:52.
The last trump is at the end of The Great Tribulation period on earth, when we shall be changed, and put on incorruption and immortality. The Pre tribulation Rapture deception is a heresy, and is one of many false beliefs adhered to by those who are merely playing church.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Our redemption and Salvation are one in the same and are realized upon Christ’s second coming. Where our Lord is, there also is His kingdom. His first coming was to allow for our salvation, and the second will be to bring our salvation.
The Pre tribulation Rapture deception allows for a certain group to escape the judgment, which is impossible.
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which are dead in Jesus will God bring with him.
The dead in Christ, are the first to put on incorruption and immortality. Contrary to the Pre tribulation Rapture deception teaching, Christ descends from heaven with the elect, He does not take anyone up to Heaven (1 Cor 15:42-53, 1 Thes 4:13-17).
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
Is it really plausible that Christ would both bring the dead with Him to earth, and then takes those from earth up to heaven? The Pre tribulation Rapture deception story quickly looses credibility in light of the true teachings of Christ Jesus.
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.
If we truly were taken to heaven as taught by the Pre tribulation Rapture deception group, Christ would not need to bring anyone to earth.
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This verse above is the primary one used by those who teach the Pre tribulation Rapture deception. After the tribulation, the Lord returns in a cloud, and all eyes shall see Him (Rev 1:7). There is no secret gathering, and Christ only returns once in a very visible manner. It also should be noted that Christ will return to this earth a second time, and nowhere in scripture is it ever implied that He ever returns to Heaven.
Mark 13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
To attempt to justify a Pre tribulation Rapture deception requires the destruction of a lot of Scripture
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven (Matt 6:10).
- We are not taken up to the kingdom of heaven, but rather Christ brings the kingdom to us.
- Wherever Christ is there the Elect will be also, the Elect are the ones left behind. Those taken are ushered into hell, to await the second death (Rev 19:20, 20:6, 20:10-15).
- The elect are to reign with Christ for a thousand years. There is only one resurrection for those who are accounted worthy to reign with Christ. The Pre tribulation Rapture deception requires two resurrections. (Rev 20:5-6. Luke 20:35-36).
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
- The Pre tribulation Rapture deception requires a third advent of Christ, which is not taught as a true doctrine.
The Words of Truth that Jesus spoke do not allow for the Pre tribulation Rapture deception. This fairy tale is not a part of the Gospel message.
LIKE!
new covenant preacher
Member
CHRIST WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT AT HIS SECOND COMING
Christ will gather together his elect only once, and to suggest two gatherings is contrary to scripture.
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which are dead in Jesus will God bring with him.
The dead in Christ, are the first to put on incorruption and immortality. Contrary to the Pre tribulation Rapture fairy tale, Christ descends from heaven with the elect, He does not take anyone up to Heaven (1 Cor 15:42-53, 1 Thes 4:13-17).
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.
If we truly were taken to heaven as taught by the Pre tribulation crowd, Christ would not need to bring anyone to earth.
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloud, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This verse above is the primary one used by those who teach this Rapture deception. After the tribulation, the Lord returns in a cloud, and all eyes shall see Him (Rev 1:7). There is no secret gathering, and Christ only returns once in a very visible manner. It also should be noted that Christ will return to this earth a second time, and nowhere in scripture is it ever implied that He ever returns to Heaven.
Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and Christ will gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
To attempt to justify a Pre tribulation Rapture deception requires the destruction of a lot of Scripture
- We are not taken up to the kingdom of heaven, but rather Christ brings the kingdom to us.
- Wherever Christ is there the Elect will be also, the Elect are the ones left behind. Those taken are ushered into hell, to await the second death (Rev 19:20, 20:6, 20:10-15).
- The elect are to reign with Christ for a thousand years. There is only one resurrection for those who are accounted worthy to reign with Christ. The Rapture deception requires two resurrections. (Rev 20:5-6. Luke 20:35-36).
- The Pre tribulation Rapture requires a third advent of Christ, which is not taught anywhere in the scriptures.
The Words of Truth that Jesus taught are completely contrary to the heretical teachings known as the Pre tribulation Rapture escape clause. This fairy tale is not a part of the Gospel message.
We need to receive His Word in our hearts as well as our minds. As well, it is essential to allow Christ’s Holy Spirit to dwell within us, so as to understand his Word. This indwelling does not automatically happen just because we know of Him. Also it is impossible to be received by those who distort the gospel and thus create a religion that they can be comfortable with.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
new covenant preacher
Member
Eugene perhaps a breakdown of what 1 Thes 4:17 Really says is in order?
The kingdom of heaven represents where Christ reigns both physically and spiritually.
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Below is a presentation of the true meaning of this verse in context.
We are not caught up in the clouds, but rather gathered together with those who come in (G 1722) the clouds, to meet or encounter the Lord of the air (1 Thes 4:17).
In 1 Thes 4:17, the Lord in the air is an incorrect translation. The word of, (G 1519) should be used as it indicates the point reached or entered of place, time, or (figurative) purpose.
The word in, (G 1722) denotes a fixed position in place or time. And we were in the ship…Acts 27:37. Another example is, Jesus was born in Bethlehem…Mat 2:1.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
When we see the prophecies of the end times come to pass then is our Redemption or Salvation very near. The Pre tribulation Rapture deception is a false hope that many cling to. The tribulations that once strengthened Christianity, are now avoided at all costs.
Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
These things represent the end time events of the great tribulation.
2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
The Apostle Paul will receive the crown of righteousness at the same time as all those that love Christ’s appearing do. This occurs upon His return to the earth. To teach that one shall be taken to receive the reward of eternal life before the tribulation, while the Apostle waits until the end of the tribulation for his is beyond ridiculous.
Matt 25:33-34 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Modern day Christianity has developed for themselves at the hand of their false teachers an escape plan known as the pre tribulation rapture, wherein they might escape tribulations.
John 17:15-16 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jesus refutes the notion of as pre tribulation rapture, or gathering of the Saints before the appointed time.
Christ made it very clear that after the tribulation He would gather all of the elect together. It would be unnecessary to gather the heavenly host, if it were not for the fact that they also were to reign on earth with Him (Mat 24:29-40).
There is not one Bible verse that suggests we are ever to go up to heaven with resurrected bodies. This transformation happens at the last trumpet judgment when the Elect reign with Christ on a new earth.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Consider this, the pretrib theory started back in 1830 when it was first taught by man who chose to ignore the point that the woman who told of it basically said afterwards it was not of God, but only a vision/dream she had. Now all those who jumped on the pretrib bandwagon use Rev Chapter 4 to prove its truth.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
After what, after John was exiled and imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos for the witness of Christ and then at that time given by Jesus to write to the seven Churches in Asia. Between Chapter 1 and chapter 4 where does it speak of a pretrib rapture of the Church!................it doesn't so how can anyone add something that is plainly not there. John was in the Spirit right where he was and not taken up to heaven to speak with Jesus, John 3:13.
Will back on Tues to respond if necessary. Have a good Labor Day weekend everyone.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
After what, after John was exiled and imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos for the witness of Christ and then at that time given by Jesus to write to the seven Churches in Asia. Between Chapter 1 and chapter 4 where does it speak of a pretrib rapture of the Church!................it doesn't so how can anyone add something that is plainly not there. John was in the Spirit right where he was and not taken up to heaven to speak with Jesus, John 3:13.
Will back on Tues to respond if necessary. Have a good Labor Day weekend everyone.
new covenant preacher
Member
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Apparently, the pre tribulation rapture elite are somehow able to escape this judgment, somehow LOL
Apparently, the pre tribulation rapture elite are somehow able to escape this judgment, somehow LOL
Your explanation does not take into account that those coming in the clouds proceeded those left here, are the cloud of witnesses of Heb 12:1.
Where were they the moment they died? Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Are you familiar with the description of the Lord's Day, and what it is? John was present there (Rev 1:10) when given different viewpoints to write of in the book of Revelation.
new covenant preacher
Member
Could someone explain to me how is it that Christ returns with His angels to reign on earth for a 1000 years and yet it is taught by some that we are taken to heaven?
Here is the real interpretation for the favorite Rapture verse used by the pre trib crowd!
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We are not caught up in the clouds, but rather gathered together with those who come in (G 1722) the clouds, to meet or encounter the Lord of the air (1 Thes 4:17).
In 1 Thes 4:17, the Lord in the air is an incorrect translation. The word of, (G 1519) should be used as it indicates the point reached or entered of place, time, or (figurative) purpose.
The word in, (G 1722) denotes a fixed position in place or time. And we were in the ship…Acts 27:37. Another example is, Jesus was born in Bethlehem…Mat 2:1.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
When we see the prophecies of the end times come to pass then is our Redemption or Salvation very near. The Pre tribulation Rapture deception is a false hope that many cling to. The tribulations that once strengthened Christianity, are now avoided at all costs.
Here is the real interpretation for the favorite Rapture verse used by the pre trib crowd!
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We are not caught up in the clouds, but rather gathered together with those who come in (G 1722) the clouds, to meet or encounter the Lord of the air (1 Thes 4:17).
In 1 Thes 4:17, the Lord in the air is an incorrect translation. The word of, (G 1519) should be used as it indicates the point reached or entered of place, time, or (figurative) purpose.
The word in, (G 1722) denotes a fixed position in place or time. And we were in the ship…Acts 27:37. Another example is, Jesus was born in Bethlehem…Mat 2:1.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
When we see the prophecies of the end times come to pass then is our Redemption or Salvation very near. The Pre tribulation Rapture deception is a false hope that many cling to. The tribulations that once strengthened Christianity, are now avoided at all costs.
2Th 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Really seems that 'our gathering together unto him' can't come until Son of Perdition is revealed
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Really seems that 'our gathering together unto him' can't come until Son of Perdition is revealed
new covenant preacher
Member
Amen!!!
As I have stated Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. Its the beast who is allowed to kill the two witnesses after their testimony has been fulfilled (1260 days as i read). The world will see that the beast was able to do what no others could do. Kill the two witnesses and state "who can make war with the beast" and the world will be deceived into following the beast and his image. The two witnesses are in Jerusalem.
Then as the beast enters the scene the great tribulation shall be allowed to come -42 months. As if any had even a shred of love and faith in God during those days they would have given glory to God in regard to the testimony and signs in REV 11. As a loving God warns and warns upfront. The rest who still refuse to repent of their evil ways will be deceived into following the beast. Like the pharaoh who refused to listen to God and release Israel at Gods command their hearts will be hardened and even as God pours out punishment onto the world the people will curse God and still refuse to repent even though God has their lives in His hands. The bowl judgments are the judgements that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness and are the last of God judgments as with them His wrath is completed. REV 15 and REV 16. In the end on the last day The lord and His armies will destroy the beast and those armies that follow the beast (visible and invisible) The great battle of God almighty. REV 16:15-16. The beast is not defeated by human power.
new covenant preacher
Member
Randy the first thing to realize is that there is not a seven-year tribulation that doctrine comes from the misinterpretation of Dan 9:27
The words, He Shall Confirm The Covenant with Many, represents a mystery that is not understood by many.
The link above should help in sorting this out. Here is a portion of that message.
By correctly understanding Dan 9:27, we realize several important facts.
- There is no seven year tribulation, as the deceitful interpretation of this verse is the only excuse made for a seven year tribulation period.
- Christ caused the sacrifice and the oblations to cease, so there will not be a Jewish temple with the old ordinances becoming reinstated.
At the true second gathering, all the righteous in Christ will reign in a Gloriously restored Jerusalem. No longer will Jerusalem be spiritually referred to as Sodom and Egypt, as it is during the Great Tribulation (Rev 11:8).
He shall confirm the covenant with many, points to Christ who was the one who caused the sacrifices and the oblations to cease, as he was the final sacrifice. After the cross, never again would animal sacrifices be acceptable. In the midst of the week, or after his three and a half year ministry, Christ sacrificed Himself for us. Daniel also tells us that for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. This refers to the false house of Judah that had become as dross, or worthless (Eze 22:19-21, Luke 13:35).
Behold your house is left to you desolate, was the decree given unto Jerusalem by Christ (Math 23:38). The Lord, at many times throughout their history, did not recognize their religious sacrifices as being valid (Isa 66:3-4; Isa 1:11).
He shall confirm the covenant with many is in no way a reference to the antichrist, however Christ will confirm the covenant with many. The suggestion that the covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27, is a covenant made with Israel by the Antichrist, is a terrible lie and is not supported anywhere in the scriptures.
The word covenant is used seven times in Daniel, and only once is it not a representation of the holy covenant of God.
Daniel 11:21-22 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant,(or treaty).
The covenant here is between two men, and in this case refers to an alliance or pledge.
Daniel 11:23 And after the league (or uniting together) made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
The antichrist or little horn of Daniel does not confirm the covenant, but is in fact very much opposed to, or against it with considerable force.
Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
By understanding that the commandments of God are contained in Christ's testimony, Rev 12:17, takes on a completely different meaning. Those who say they are of the spiritual house of Judah, but are not, do not keep these commandments. So obviously this is a reference to Christians, that the Beast and False Prophet persecute. This means that there is no pre tribulation rapture, only the true believers have the testimony of Jesus (1Cor1:6; Rev 1:9; Rev 12:11).
From the above verse it is clear to see that the dragon through his fleshly representative makes war with the remnant, who are the Christians that have the testimony of Christ.
He shall confirm the covenant with many is in reference to Christ who did confirm the covenant with many. His earthly ministry was for three and a half years. This leaves the second half of the last week still unfulfilled. Many grasp the truth that Daniel 9:27, refers to Christ as the one who does the confirming. However they believe that it is a consecutive seven year period with the latter half confirmation taking place through his disciples.
Christ did confirm the covenant with many, and this confirmation process began at the beginning of the New Testament age.
The interpretation of the words "He Shall Confirm The Covenant with Many" will impact our understanding of other prophetic passages. The truth hidden in this passage will undoubtedly unravel many other deceptions that are all to common in end time prophecy teachings.
Most teachers of Christianity falsely claim that this verse is all about the anti Christ making a covenant with Israel for seven years.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
From the command to rebuild Jerusalem until Christ is a period of sixty nine weeks of years; the emphasis in this verse is on Jesus Christ (Dan 9:25).
And after this period of time Messiah shall be cut off; the emphasis in this verse is also on Him (Dan 9:26). Likewise in Dan 9:27, the emphasis is still on Jesus. He shall confirm the covenant with many.
The words “he shall" are added by the translator twice. Therefore, what is being described in the first part of this passage is the confirming or establishment of a covenant with many for one week. This means that the emphasis is on confirming a covenant, and it may be confirmed by multiple sources. He shall confirm the covenant with many, is in reference to Christ's covenant.
The first half of the seventieth week of Daniel was fulfilled in Christ; His ministry was for three and one half years. The promise that He shall confirm the covenant with many, is in reference to Christ's covenant, and is already partially fulfilled.
A problem I have with Rapture theory involves the GAP which pre-trib/mid-trib and post-trib put between the 69th and 70th week.
There is no biblical precedent that I can see for God declaring a certain number of years would go by until X, and then CALLING TIME-OUT before X and having "the prophetic clock STOP" as Dispensationalists are wont to say.
God predicted the jews would be in bondage in Egypt for a given amount of time -- that time ran concurrently -- no GAP.
Jeremiah predicted the seventy years captivity in Babylon. The time ran consecutively -- no GAP.
Daniel predicts seventy shauvim, which we see are weeks of years and beginning with a certain decree we come right to Messiah -- we should expect the time to run consecutively -- just as did the predictions of Bondage in Egypt and captivity in Babylon.
No justification for
"Oh, but wait, TIMEOUT! King's X!! The prophetic clock STOPPED!"
A special (false) hermeneutic is applied to Daniel's 70 weeks about this alleged GAP, when the time should be consecutive just like Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon. Don't you see how unfairly this time-period (70 weeks) is treated when we know from Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon that these forecasted lengths of time run without a break?
It's a miraculous thing that a prophet can prophesy X amount of years in Bondage to Egypt and it come to pass!
It's an awesome thing that Jeremiah can predict 70 years of Babylonian captivity and it come to pass!
It's a mind-blowing thing that Daniel can prophesy of when Messiah will be cut off -- centuries beforehand -- even the people that think Daniel was written ex eventu in Maccabean period can't get away from the fact that Messiah being cut off is right on the nose; whichever date for authorship of Daniel is taken as true -- either is still WELL BEFORE JESUS!!
So we have a third prediction of years -- just like Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon -- but people throw this GAP in there; no biblical hermeneutical warrant for that.
Seventy shauvim were prophesied, and they ran their course.
We still have a separate prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2 about a Day of Christ, His coming and our gathering together unto Him -- a revealing of a son of perdition who will be destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's parousia -- that's future, hasn't happened yet.
But Daniel's 70 weeks are history.
There is no biblical precedent that I can see for God declaring a certain number of years would go by until X, and then CALLING TIME-OUT before X and having "the prophetic clock STOP" as Dispensationalists are wont to say.
God predicted the jews would be in bondage in Egypt for a given amount of time -- that time ran concurrently -- no GAP.
Jeremiah predicted the seventy years captivity in Babylon. The time ran consecutively -- no GAP.
Daniel predicts seventy shauvim, which we see are weeks of years and beginning with a certain decree we come right to Messiah -- we should expect the time to run consecutively -- just as did the predictions of Bondage in Egypt and captivity in Babylon.
No justification for
"Oh, but wait, TIMEOUT! King's X!! The prophetic clock STOPPED!"
A special (false) hermeneutic is applied to Daniel's 70 weeks about this alleged GAP, when the time should be consecutive just like Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon. Don't you see how unfairly this time-period (70 weeks) is treated when we know from Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon that these forecasted lengths of time run without a break?
It's a miraculous thing that a prophet can prophesy X amount of years in Bondage to Egypt and it come to pass!
It's an awesome thing that Jeremiah can predict 70 years of Babylonian captivity and it come to pass!
It's a mind-blowing thing that Daniel can prophesy of when Messiah will be cut off -- centuries beforehand -- even the people that think Daniel was written ex eventu in Maccabean period can't get away from the fact that Messiah being cut off is right on the nose; whichever date for authorship of Daniel is taken as true -- either is still WELL BEFORE JESUS!!
So we have a third prediction of years -- just like Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon -- but people throw this GAP in there; no biblical hermeneutical warrant for that.
Seventy shauvim were prophesied, and they ran their course.
We still have a separate prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2 about a Day of Christ, His coming and our gathering together unto Him -- a revealing of a son of perdition who will be destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's parousia -- that's future, hasn't happened yet.
But Daniel's 70 weeks are history.