Why I cringe when people say it's all about choice.

[Danus]

I understand the error of Calvinism and can easy say Calvin was 'dead wrong' about many issues.

Most things are pretty easy to say. Just say them and wha-la.

 

[jasoncran]

.......That is how Calvin is interpreted and I don't fully fault anyone for that line of thinking alone, but Calvin's TULIP runs far higher than that type of thinking.

Does anyone have to understand Calvin to be a Christian? NO. However, to say Calvin is dead wrong, or not orthodoxy is really saying "I don't understand Calvin." and that's where the truth to his being attacked rest.

Calvin did not discover anything that was not already said, and that's the biggest clue to understanding John Calvin. Was he a bit one-sided, a little out there intellectually? Yeah, maybe, I think so, but understanding him honestly would do one better than relentlessly attacking something and falsely labeling it "Calvinism".

i understand, that was going to go into that after some thinking if i felt it. that said one must ingore the clear warnings of falling away in order to believe in eternal security and that all musnt mean all. i understand your idea more then you think. i made it simple.

 

[zeke]

Most things are pretty easy to say. Just say them and wha-la.

Yes - to say Calvin was 'dead wrong' about many issues is easy to say and it easy to demonstrate. Start a thread titled, "The Many Errors of Calvinism" and I will join you there.

 

[childeye]

so just because one doesnt believe in something doesnt mean that one cant know the arguments. otherwise i coudnt debat islam. judiasm as i dont know(believe ) in their version of dieties.

i listen to a calvinist pastor dialy. its from him that i learned the stance.the problem for you is this, if god allows his creations to die and without any chance to reject him then its like this. you here three kids in pain and about die, you can save all three without any effort but you choose the one that you like the most and let the others die. that is why i think many dont like calvinism.in essence that is what it says.when the bible says god is longsuffering so that all may come.

Your scenario is not how I would frame the issue. Make it three kids in pain all hitting each other for their pain and then start from there.

 

[jasoncran]

Your scenario is not how I would frame the issue. Make it three kids in pain all hitting each other for their pain and then start from there.

its doesnt matter who is causing the pain? the devil or the sin curse either way they need help from god. or is the fact their isnt a devil that was also defeated and his fate sealed at the cross?

while i dont blame the devil for all sin that occurs. he does blind and also does a good job at time side tracking christians but ultimately god wins and get his glory.

 

[childeye]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

Maybe in your opinion you're not better.. although from what you have said in this thread I can't see how you can't be better than me... you said that people are forced to sin and that YOU do not sin ! ! ! So how does that work.. you do not sin and yet other people are forced to sin..? How come you're not forced to sin like everyone else ?

I'm older and perhaps more confident, but not better. I am more confident now than I was when I was younger, but in my youth not unlike you now. How am I better than you who are less confident and younger as I also was? Is it not a carnal futile thing to compete as to who is better than who?

you said that people are forced to sin and that YOU do not sin ! ! ! So how does that work.. you do not sin and yet other people are forced to sin..? How come you're not forced to sin like everyone else ?

My Answer: Because we are all forced to be flesh and we all are by this carnal nature born sinners. Yet Jesus provides a way for us to crucify that flesh for the sake of Godly Love. You know this as well. You just don't seem to believe it to the point of absolute conviction.

I am believing that God's Grace will uphold me and sin will not have dominion over me even because I have quite trying to not sin and also quite blaming others for theirs. That's right, a long time ago I gave up on trying to not sin and turned to God in a complete conviction of all of men's impotence.

You also said that you can't be wrong..

I know, but what an audacious self-centered all knowing bulshimite am I. Or is it I am a bold, filled of faith soldier of the Truth in Christ, able to bring down all strongholds that oppose the knowledge of God? I said I cannot be wrong about God's Character. That is no different than saying Jesus is the Christ. I have gleaned all knowledge of God from the simple fact that God is One Who would sacrifice Him Self to save us. The Holy Spirit carried me the whole way and always will, God willing.

You're clearly better than me childeye.

Oh stop it, I'm blushing.
What Truth I wield is not come by anything I have done, but by God's Grace for His Name's sake, not mine. I would reckon without His Spirit I am no more than maybe a speck of dust.

Well then, in summary all that you have served me is that you do not sin, that others are forced to sin, and that you can't be wrong.. I can typically do ok without that service lol.

What do you want from me? You once asked for my testimony, how I came to Christ. That's something I tell few people. I'm prepared to tell you.

No, because you can't be wrong.. so do the math, if you can't be wrong then what's the point of any other view.. ? Do you want to correct everyone else.. is that it ?

You answered your own question. Yes I want to correct people, but only to exhort them to a great love for God. I know, I know, I must think I'm better than everybody. Not so. How do you know I don't speak the Truth simply because Love requires it? What have I said that I have not corroborated by scripture? I preach a simple Truth, that Christ is the True Image of God sent by God. I elaborate from there.

 

[jasoncran]

flesh was never bad to god. i wish by the power of god that the greek thinking christianity was removed all at once. the world and its blessing though marred will be redeemed not burned away. god never said marriage was bad, never said the son was bad or the earth. he called it all good. the fall corrupted that and when jesus returns it will be redeemed and all will be well again. we arent spirits having a fleshly experience. we are souls with both a spirit and flesh nature.

 

[childeye]

its doesnt matter who is causing the pain? the devil or the sin curse either way they need help from god. or is the fact their isnt a devil that was also defeated and his fate sealed at the cross?

while i dont blame the devil for all sin that occurs. he does blind and also does a good job at time side tracking christians but ultimately god wins and get his glory.

You skip the necessary point. God wants to save all of them, but none of them deserve it and the pain they are feeling is their own distrust perpetuated in a circle.

The devil plays a lie that causes this distrust that returns evil for evil in a circle of pain that when returned, eventually comes back worst then it was to begin with.

 

[jasoncran]

You skip the necessary point. God wants to save all of them, but none of them deserve it and the pain they are feeling is their own distrust perpetuated in a circle.

The devil plays a lie that causes this distrust that returns evil for evil in a circle of pain that when returned, eventually comes back worst then it was to begin with.

then you have denied your own beliefs as that isnt what the tulip implies. it implies that god by his own right of sovernity decides to allows some to die and enter hell. your position is arminist and close to mine.

 

[childeye]

flesh was never bad to god. i wish by the power of god that the greek thinking christianity was removed all at once. the world and its blessing though marred will be redeemed not burned away. god never said marriage was bad, never said the son was bad or the earth. he called it all good. the fall corrupted that and when jesus returns it will be redeemed and all will be well again. we arent spirits having a fleshly experience. we are souls with both a spirit and flesh nature.

I agree with you. All was good, but we were persuaded that something was wrong in paradise. All is built on faith and doubt is the downfall. We find fault where there is none. No wonder the Christ who is sinless is crucified for sin. No wonder men of God are killed by those thinking they are serving God.

 

[childeye]

then you have denied your own beliefs as that isnt what the tulip implies. it implies that god by his own right of sovernity decides to allows some to die and enter hell. your position is arminist and close to mine.

I have told you for the umpteenth time I am not a Calvinist and I am not an Arminianist. I was taught by God and not any man. And I don't know that what you say is what Calvin believed nor do I care. I do believe all is happening in time for a purpose that in the end will glorify God alone. Flesh doesn't matter one bit. It is a temporal means to accomplish an Eternal purpose.

 

[jasoncran]

so you dont believe jesus was raised from the dead?

that isnt what paul teaches and he even mentioned that if we die with him we will be raised with.

both one thessalionians and corinthians teaches that.

a bodily ressurection is mentioned in the 15th chapter of corinthians i suggest that you read it and also one thessalionians 5 and both address not a rapture but a ressurection as the former there was written in response to question has the ressurection occured?

the redeemed and prefall flesh are perfect and good we dont stay in heaven. the hebrew words for soul also mention a body.

 

[childeye]

so you dont believe jesus was raised from the dead?

From where do you draw this conclusion?

the redeemed and prefall flesh are perfect and good we dont stay in heaven. the hebrew words for soul also mention a body.

Oh I see. You think because I said the flesh counts for nothing, then I am saying that we will have no bodies in heaven. Not at all. I don't know what bodies we will have, but I know the Christ had a glorified body. When I say the flesh counts for nothing it means the same as, But we carry this treasure in earthen vessels so that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us.

 

[jasoncran]

i made it clear where i came from when you said that response.
you will find that it takes more then one reading to even think that you have it all right. sooner or later all that you think you know about the bible will be shown off and you will have to say wow i dont know nothing. when that has occured then you have just begun.i have reached this state and i though i understood the basics and the ot and found that man i dont know anything.

if you think that freewill is that limited tell me why jesus warns of falling away in revalation and also says to him that overcome him i will give a crown? if jesus overcame then why would then say that to you? his our life but we can reject him and we must choose to remain in him.

if we cant walkaway from christ then there would be no clear warnings of such.

 

[Danus]

Yes - to say Calvin was 'dead wrong' about many issues is easy to say and it easy to demonstrate. Start a thread titled, "The Many Errors of Calvinism" and I will join you there.

I'll be surprised if it doesn't get deleted but go check it out, Should be fun.

I wont have a lot of time to work on the thread, but I'll try to keep current on the replies.

 

[childeye]

i made it clear where i came from when you said that response.
you will find that it takes more then one reading to even think that you have it all right. sooner or later all that you think you know about the bible will be shown off and you will have to say wow i dont know nothing. when that has occured then you have just begun.i have reached this state and i though i understood the basics and the ot and found that man i dont know anything.

That's just the kind of thinking I understand completely. I don't claim to understand the whole bible and like you have conceded that I would be learning forever, so I just wish to learn one thing, to trust God. Basically a wise man thinks himself a fool. And when he thinks he is wise for saying he is a fool, he may even begin to say he is wise so that he knows he is a fool. But I know we are fools for Christ is our wisdom and we his servants.

if you think that freewill is that limited tell me why jesus warns of falling away in revalation and also says to him that overcome him i will give a crown?

Because I reckon that what I am to overcome is that belief in free will that is really just the obedience to the flesh and to pride and is a vanity.

if jesus overcame then why would then say that to you?

Because I am to overcome as he did or forfeit my crown. But I will not overcome by free will but by faith and perserverance in the Eternal Spirit.

if we cant walkaway from christ then there would be no clear warnings of such.

If a man loses faith he will walk away to save himself, though he will lose himself. Free will has nothing to do with this since loss of faith preempts the choice to leave. Otherwise a man who had lost faith could simply choose by his free will to have it again at his leisure. All is built on faith, it's all about faith, not free will. Also the warning may be to preempt any complacency that might occur since the Holy Spirit may use his words to set one's heart to be prepared for the worst rather than be caught off guard..

 

[zeke]

All is built on faith, it's all about faith, not free will.

You're quite mistaken - it's all about faith working (obeying) through love. Those who have heard the good news about Christ must then choose via freewill to obey the gospel of Christ - from the heart (Romans 6:17, 18). We must all "...choose you this day whom you will serve."

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
(Gal 5:6 NKJV)​

 

[Eventide]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

I'm older and perhaps more confident, but not better.

Let's try it like this..

Which is better..

To sin, or not to sin..?

Now, you claim that people are forced to sin... and you claim that you do not sin..

See how obvious it is that you're better...

My Answer: Because we are all forced to be flesh and we all are by this carnal nature born sinners.

But you do not sin... so how does that work.. don't you have flesh like the rest of us ?

Yet Jesus provides a way for us to crucify that flesh for the sake of Godly Love. You know this as well. You just don't seem to believe it to the point of absolute conviction.

I believe it 100%... I simply believe the rest of scripture as well... scriptures like Romans 7 which says that sin dwelleth in me.. or Hebrews which speaks of the sin which so easily besets us... and then the scriptures which teach us that the flesh always wars with the Spirit of Christ in us etc..

Are those scriptures applicable to you ?

I am believing that God's Grace will uphold me and sin will not have dominion over me even because I have quite trying to not sin and also quite blaming others for theirs. That's right, a long time ago I gave up on trying to not sin and turned to God in a complete conviction of all of men's impotence.

So once again, your flesh never wars with the Spirit of Christ in you ? You also say that you don't blame others for their sin.. so who do you blame ?

I know, but what an audacious self-centered all knowing bulshimite am I. Or is it I am a bold, filled of faith soldier of the Truth in Christ, able to bring down all strongholds that oppose the knowledge of God? I said I cannot be wrong about God's Character. That is no different than saying Jesus is the Christ. I have gleaned all knowledge of God from the simple fact that God is One Who would sacrifice Him Self to save us. The Holy Spirit carried me the whole way and always will, God willing.

Ok, you can't be wrong about God's character... and yet you claim that others are forced to sin while you're not.. so how does that happen.. did you get a special pass or something..?

What do you want from me? You once asked for my testimony, how I came to Christ. That's something I tell few people. I'm prepared to tell you.

I don't want anything.. this is a discussion where people typically share their views on matters. It would help if you'd explain how you came to the place of not sinning while others are forced to sin.

You answered your own question. Yes I want to correct people, but only to exhort them to a great love for God. I know, I know, I must think I'm better than everybody. Not so. How do you know I don't speak the Truth simply because Love requires it? What have I said that I have not corroborated by scripture? I preach a simple Truth, that Christ is the True Image of God sent by God. I elaborate from there.

So you like to correct people.. wouldn't it be better to show them how you came to not sin while they're forced to sin..? Isn't that the bottom line here ?

 

[childeye]

You're quite mistaken - it's all about faith working (obeying) through love. Those who have heard the good news about Christ must then choose via freewill to obey the gospel of Christ - from the heart (Romans 6:17, 18). We must all "...choose you this day whom you will serve."

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
(Gal 5:6 NKJV)
​

Zeke, I think you misunderstand what I say, semantics. You say we choose via freewill I say we choose via a will. I agree with you therefore about faith working in the service of Love. I've said this many times already on this thread. To me this is then contradictory to obedience happening via free will since Love is the Spirit of goodness we serve. So why the disconnect? To me a free will would be able to choose to have Love or not have Love and I don't see the possibility of that. That is why I don't believe in it. Therefore all wills are subject to Love in one way or another.

 

[Elijah674]

Zeke, I think you misunderstand what I say, semantics. You say we choose via freewill I say we choose via a will. I agree with you therefore about faith working in the service of Love. I've said this many times already on this thread. To me this is then contradictory to obedience happening via free will. So why the disconnect? To me a free will would be able to choose to have Love or not have Love. That is why I don't believe in it. Therefore all wills are subject to Love in one way or another.

And some think that 'i' am hard to understand.