Why I cringe when people say it's all about choice.

[Eventide]

Just read it in the bible and see it on the cross and believe it. God's Glorius Image said forgive them they know not what they do.

I have read the holy scriptures and I have come to a drastically different conclusion than you have.

So do you sin willingly and have the freewill power to not sin at your own discretion or not?

I was born again ~25 years ago... If I was to tell you that in all that time that I have never sinned (even being willfully disobedient), then I'd be a liar.

Not all of us can be like you and not sin.. there's a constant battle between the flesh and the Spirit.. so if you're always victorious in that battle, then you're surely a better man than most.

 

[Elijah674]

I have read the holy scriptures and I have come to a drastically different conclusion than you have.



I was born again ~25 years ago... If I was to tell you that in all that time that I have never sinned (even being willfully disobedient), then I'd be a liar.

Not all of us can be like you and not sin.. there's a constant battle between the flesh and the Spirit.. so if you're always victorious in that battle, then you're surely a better man than most.

Hi, good response! And was that a choice?? Phil. 4:13 or Not?? 2 Cor. 12:9. And it is true that God requires us to MATURE is what 'i' think that you are correctly teaching?

Take note how it is actually playing out as 'i' see it..

OK: Just a thought on this verse??

'2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.'

It seems that most (many) think that the last anti/christ will be an bodied one/person antichrist. (seen in Jersulam) Yet, we find angels said to be ministering 's'pirits! (good + bad)

SOOOO! It sounds like it is the whole world that will be mostly following this [ONE WORLD LEADER MAN] that indeed has them! and are even as seen today 'wandering' with him.. or actually the fully inspired evil 'ministering spirit' angel, known as satan! ('wandering' like Eve did by going on forbidden ground!)

And I hope that it will be SOON so as some can toss out other false doctrine, & get this straight! (or me!)

---Elijah

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

Response to #87

I, being of sound mind, freely choose to admit that this is a rant.

The only thing you can do with your deterministic idea is to bring me down. Don’t want to go there. Been there, done that. If that means to you I’m just an immature little child, then you’re entitled to your opinion. And I choose to not be a part of your opinion. But know this. Children are trusting, and only rarely deceived. I wish to thank you for the complement.

You can go ahead and cringe because men think they are free to think and do what they will. And I withdraw my remark about cringing about the deterministic beliefs that you and other Christians adhere to. The very idea of cringing implies a phobia. And I don’t suffer from determinism phobia any more than I suffer from homophobia.

But you are cringing about what the bible clearly reveals. From Do not eat and if you choose to do so you will die a long slow death because what you will have eaten is poison to you and all of your progeny, through choose you this day whom you will serve, to whosoever will let him take the water of life freely. God doesn’t have commands for no reason for people who can’t obey them and then punish them for it. That would make God out to be a very stupid and tyrannical god. Which would make even an Atheist cringe. Or laugh at the followers who are as stupid as their god.

God isn’t a puppeteer. And if your God is, I suggest you find another God. Because according to the bible, only Satan wants puppets. God wants people who desire a relationship with him. Who love him for what he actually is, not for what they’ve been programmed to think he is.

The God of the bible is the opposite of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Tse Tung. Yet the god you describe is just like them. The idea that God is a god of brainwashing is what keeps a lot of people from believing in the God of the bible. I know because I know some of these people. They’ve become convinced by Christians that the Bible teaches just the kind of God you portray and want no part of him. And I want no part of him either. You can choose to interpret that as you will.

I stand against the God you represent. If your god is the God of the Bible, then I’ve always been an Atheist, except for the time I was deluded into believing like a Calvinist. Even then, my gut told me that their deterministic God wasn’t the same God I signed up for. And it didn’t take me very long to see the lack of common sense in that idea. That’s not the same God that is a part of the view I present. For the simple reason that the God you represent is more like a Satan than a man, and more like a man than like a God. You’ve created a god in your own image. And you consequently think that Satan rules the world. Even though the bible says it ain’t so. I can only think that implies that you think Satan is ruling you or you’re having a lot of trouble with what you think is Satan ruling you. Which gives me some hope in your regard. For that could mean that you have a healthy sense of sin. Of course, it could also mean you just have a morbid sense of imagination.

You are representative of your own thinking. And, unfortunately, a thinking that is very similar to the thinking of a lot of other Christians. Man isn’t made of just the flesh that enables Satan to lead men about or to deceive their soulless minds at will. There is also the soul, there is also the human spirit. The human spirit is not dead just because the flesh has death within it. Not Satan, death. The idea that Satan is in the flesh of man is an interpretation of a part of Rom 7, augmented by the idea that when man ate the forbidden fruit, that Satan got into his flesh by somehow becoming that fruit, literally or metaphorically.

Who doesn’t like a good conspiracy theory? Your idea sounds like a conspiracy theory. And if that’s all the bible is revealing, then it’s no wonder that so many people are attracted to it whether they believe it’s real or fiction. The X-Files was sufficiently popular to run for nine years. And guess what was the basis of that TV show? Yep. A conspiracy theory. Why did do murder mysteries like Perry Mason, Murder She Wrote, and Columbo continue to be so popular? What is a good murder mystery but the solving of a conspiracy to murder? YouTube is full of conspiracy theories, from UFO’s to the One World Government. Did you know that the Jews are running the world? Or is it Rome? Or is it some other organization? And right along beside the rest of the conspiracy theories is the idea that Satan rules the world. Not God, Satan. Who doesn’t like a good conspiracy theory?

The idea of determinism makes life futile. Whether in or out of Christ. Everything has been preordained. It’s what God chooses that matters. Yet in the real world, men obviously aren’t driven by the idea of determinism. Even when in a situation of oppression. Even Atheists have purpose in their lives. Lofty purposes, like being a part of the desire to know what makes everything tick. The unifying theory of the Universe that unifies all other theories. They have their own idea of Spirituality, even though it only includes what they can see of the natural world. They have families they love, and friends they respect. Predetermined? By Satan or by God? Or are they the same person and we’ve been deluded into thinking they’re different beings? What you talking about Willis? Worry not. It’s just another conspiracy theory.

Death in the flesh can and does cause men to sin at some point in their lives. Often more than once. Sometimes an individual will pick a sin and practice it fluently. And determinists like to point to where it says that God referred to man sinning continuously, ergo the flood. But it can be controlled enough to build human civilizations. Or do you think that’s a part of Satan’s control as well? That Cain built cities and men build civilizations that fully conform to Satanic control? The kingdoms of the earth are the kingdoms of Satan.... You think that is one time that the liar Satan told the truth, don’t you? Just because Jesus didn’t come right out and say he was lying, but instead pointed to a principle that made what he said irrelevant?

Well that cinches it, doesn’t it? First the Law is just the Law of the Jews. Which in practicality nullifies the OT for Christians. And now this. You’ve helped to open my eyes. What I thought was just a man-made religion is just another kingdom of Satan. Ergo, a false religion by its own interpretation. You need to take your thinking to its logical conclusion. Thanks Childeye.

NC

PS: Dadof10..... What is your thinking about all this? As a Catholic, surely you’re not a believer in determinism. Or are you?

 

[childeye]

I have read the holy scriptures and I have come to a drastically different conclusion than you have.

If you are not a coward like so many other opponents on this issue, we will come to an agreement that is equitable.

I was born again ~25 years ago... If I was to tell you that in all that time that I have never sinned (even being willfully disobedient), then I'd be a liar.

Quite dodging the question Eventide. You know what I want you to admit. You have too skillfully circumvented the intent of my question, revealing you are trying to avoid the inevitable implications. I never asked you to tell me that you have never sinned or willfuly been disobedient in the past. Here is the question you continually evade.

Do you say you sin and are also now saying you sin willingly, and you want to be a sinner, with all power to be able to not do so at your discretion?

You once had a great thread on conviction. We can't run from the Truth as you well know. Help me prove it for Christ's sake.

Not all of us can be like you and not sin..

I would be interested to know, were you to say this to Christ, what do you think he would say?

there's a constant battle between the flesh and the Spirit.. so if you're always victorious in that battle, then you're surely a better man than most.

Here's the thing. I am not a better man than you or anybody else, and such thinking you offer is vanity. I also never said I am always victorius in battle with my flesh, even because I battle a spiritual power of darkness that would accuse all men in the weakness of their flesh. That is why you come to a drastically different conclusion than me because you believe in freewill, a futile reasoning of the mind upon which this spiritual darkness is empowered to both tempt and accuse... I give Christ that glory of victory, as the Light of all men. Now will you answer the question or not?

 

[childeye]

Hi, good response! And was that a choice?? Phil. 4:13 or Not?? 2 Cor. 12:9. And it is true that God requires us to MATURE is what 'i' think that you are correctly teaching?

Take note how it is actually playing out as 'i' see it..

OK: Just a thought on this verse??

'2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.'

It seems that most (many) think that the last anti/christ will be an bodied one/person antichrist. (seen in Jersulam) Yet, we find angels said to be ministering 's'pirits! (good + bad)

SOOOO! It sounds like it is the whole world that will be mostly following this [ONE WORLD LEADER MAN] that indeed has them! and are even as seen today 'wandering' with him.. or actually the fully inspired evil 'ministering spirit' angel, known as satan! ('wandering' like Eve did by going on forbidden ground!)

And I hope that it will be SOON so as some can toss out other false doctrine, & get this straight! (or me!)

---Elijah

All I would say about this post is, it congratulates a person for evading a point blank question put forth in a forthright manner from one brother to another.

 

[childeye]

Childeye

Response to #87

I, being of sound mind, freely choose to admit that this is a rant.

You have called it a rant and think you are of sound mind in doing so. Please observe your misunderstandings on which you base your conclusions...

The only thing you can do with your deterministic idea is to bring me down. Don’t want to go there.

To claim there are reasons for things happening brings you down how? God chooses the lowly things to bring to nought the High things. Such a freewill that denies this is caused by pride in a deterministic sense. Is it really so bad to be brought down by God? At least our feet are on solid ground.

If that means to you I’m just an immature little child, then you’re entitled to your opinion.

This is an outright accusation of claims to superiority which were never made. I have never thought you were a child in any bad sense of the word. I just have a hard time respecting your opinions when they serve against your own best interests.

And I choose to not be a part of your opinion.

It's not one's opinion just because they point out what scripture says. My opinion was destroyed long ago.

You can go ahead and cringe because men think they are free to think and do what they will. And I withdraw my remark about cringing about the deterministic beliefs that you and other Christians adhere to. The very idea of cringing implies a phobia. And I don’t suffer from determinism phobia any more than I suffer from homophobia.

So now which is it, you are brought down so you won't go there with me, or you will because you have no phobia? Perfect Love casts out all phobias.

But you are cringing about what the bible clearly reveals. From Do not eat and if you choose to do so you will die a long slow death because what you will have eaten is poison to you and all of your progeny, through choose you this day whom you will serve, to whosoever will let him take the water of life freely.

The water of life is taken freely is saying there is no price one can or need pay, and it is free to whoever wills to drink from it. I don't cringe at that. The poison of the tree I do not deny, indeed I am saying men are subject to death and sin because of it, which afore you said you would not entertain any thoughts on determinism while you preach it here. I do not cringe at choose who you serve, I cringe that people think there are other gods to choose from.

God doesn’t have commands for no reason for people who can’t obey them and then punish them for it. That would make God out to be a very stupid and tyrannical god. Which would make even an Atheist cringe. Or laugh at the followers who are as stupid as their god.

Yes that would be problematic except scripture says God paid the price on a cross so that sins would be forgiven. He cannot be accused of being a tyrant since He partook of the punishment of sin also. Moreover if the law is meant to show men have sin and you are the one thinking it was given because you can obey it, there will obviously be somebody misinformed who would think God is stupid. I am simply bringing this to light as a preacher of the Gospel.

God isn’t a puppeteer. And if your God is, I suggest you find another God. Because according to the bible, only Satan wants puppets. God wants people who desire a relationship with him. Who love him for what he actually is, not for what they’ve been programmed to think he is.

This is taken from post #87. There's a big difference between powers that rule by Truth and powers that rule by lies. The scriptures are saying men are deceived into serving Satan, and Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. One cannot resist him without being armed with the Truth. Men killed men of God thinking they were serving god and resisting the devil.

So as you see I really do think we agree. I am not denying men have wills, just that their moral character is a reflection of their image of god, be it true or false.

The God of the bible is the opposite of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Tse Tung. Yet the god you describe is just like them. The idea that God is a god of brainwashing is what keeps a lot of people from believing in the God of the bible. I know because I know some of these people. They’ve become convinced by Christians that the Bible teaches just the kind of God you portray and want no part of him. And I want no part of him either. You can choose to interpret that as you will.

I preach the Christ who submiited to crucifixion and said forgive them for they know not what they do. How is this like Hitler in any way? You make very strong accusation against me which someday you will regret saying. I hope soon, for I sincerely already weep that you would think this of me.

I stand against the God you represent. If your god is the God of the Bible, then I’ve always been an Atheist, except for the time I was deluded into believing like a Calvinist. Even then, my gut told me that their deterministic God wasn’t the same God I signed up for. And it didn’t take me very long to see the lack of common sense in that idea. That’s not the same God that is a part of the view I present. For the simple reason that the God you represent is more like a Satan than a man, and more like a man than like a God. You’ve created a god in your own image. And you consequently think that Satan rules the world. Even though the bible says it ain’t so. I can only think that implies that you think Satan is ruling you or you’re having a lot of trouble with what you think is Satan ruling you. Which gives me some hope in your regard. For that could mean that you have a healthy sense of sin. Of course, it could also mean you just have a morbid sense of imagination.

I preach the Christ Jesus as the True Image of God sent by God. I never preached that I make God in my image. Apart from where I said I once also believed in a freewill to obey and disobey God, I challenge you to produce where I have made god in my image anywhere on this forum, or otherwise admit you are deluded into accusing me unjustly, and return to being my friend.

 

[zeke]

You appear to misunderstand my friend – I said the Bible teaches a universal truth – the truth that man has the choice to serve God or to serve sin and that freedom to choose is ours via God’s gift of free-will. We are either slaves of sin leading to death or we obey God “from the heart" - an obedience that leads to righteousness. The choice is ours. Obedience implies freedom of choice.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
(Rom 6:16-18)​

Have you personally chosen via freewill to obey God unto righteousness or have you chosen to remain a slave of sin? Or are you a robot?


Of course it does. What Bible version do you use? In context - Joshua clearly told the people they had a choice to make that day - they could choose to serve the gods of their forefathers or the gods of the Amorites but his household had already made the choice to serve the LORD. What part of choose/choice/freewill are you missing?

Bump for childeye

 

[WIP]

It is understood that there are strong convictions on both sides of this discussion. Let's be careful to respect each other's opinions. This is a great topic that needs to be discussed so let's try to present our views with objectivity so we don't invite a lock down.

 

[childeye]

Childeye

You are representative of your own thinking. And, unfortunately, a thinking that is very similar to the thinking of a lot of other Christians. Man isn’t made of just the flesh that enables Satan to lead men about or to deceive their soulless minds at will.
There is also the soul, there is also the human spirit. The human spirit is not dead just because the flesh has death within it. Not Satan, death. The idea that Satan is in the flesh of man is an interpretation of a part of Rom 7, augmented by the idea that when man ate the forbidden fruit, that Satan got into his flesh by somehow becoming that fruit, literally or metaphorically.

You totally misunderstand what I said in post #87. Here is what I said: Yes the will of the flesh is death. Satan is there only to use the desire of the flesh to both tempt with and accuse with. Hence Paul says, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience, among whom we had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh. And elsewhere he says, we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Who doesn’t like a good conspiracy theory? Your idea sounds like a conspiracy theory. And if that’s all the bible is revealing, then it’s no wonder that so many people are attracted to it whether they believe it’s real or fiction. The X-Files was sufficiently popular to run for nine years. And guess what was the basis of that TV show? Yep. A conspiracy theory. Why did do murder mysteries like Perry Mason, Murder She Wrote, and Columbo continue to be so popular? What is a good murder mystery but the solving of a conspiracy to murder? YouTube is full of conspiracy theories, from UFO’s to the One World Government. Did you know that the Jews are running the world? Or is it Rome? Or is it some other organization? And right along beside the rest of the conspiracy theories is the idea that Satan rules the world. Not God, Satan. Who doesn’t like a good conspiracy theory?

Luke 4:5-6



5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Ephesians 6:12
King James Version (KJV)

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

John 3:17
King James Version (KJV)

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 12:31


King James Version (KJV)

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

2 Corinthians 4:4
King James Version (KJV)

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Timothy 2:25-26
King James Version (KJV)


25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Christianity is not a conspiracy theory. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. That does not mean there is presently no Light in the world.

The idea of determinism makes life futile. Whether in or out of Christ. Everything has been preordained. It’s what God chooses that matters. Yet in the real world, men obviously aren’t driven by the idea of determinism. Even when in a situation of oppression. Even Atheists have purpose in their lives. Lofty purposes, like being a part of the desire to know what makes everything tick. The unifying theory of the Universe that unifies all other theories. They have their own idea of Spirituality, even though it only includes what they can see of the natural world. They have families they love, and friends they respect. Predetermined? By Satan or by God? Or are they the same person and we’ve been deluded into thinking they’re different beings? What you talking about Willis? Worry not. It’s just another conspiracy theory.

I love to preach to atheists. I love to show them that the desire to know what makes everything tick is the search for The Truth. They actually believe in god since that is what the term god means. The unfifying theory of the universe is found in the divine Love that is Christ. He is the mirror of who we are, so as to see him clearly and know him, is to come to know one's self. All things exist to serve this Love.

But your understanding of determinism vs. freewill is brought to a denial of God and Truth all together even as you claim to seek it... Hence I can easily point out your hypocrisy since you deny your very self. You will contest it is my god you deny, but there is only one God whose energy we exist upon. and you cannot escape the fact that life cannot exist apart from a moral foundation, nor can you deny that Love is a Spirit that exists. You have felt compassion and empathy yourself, you need only findout if this love exists at your discretion. If you say it is your freewill to deny Love then you admit God is Love and not by your will do you bring forth love. So also should you not deny that Love is the cause and purpose of all life, and that is why I proclaim loudly that such denial is vanity\futility and the kingdom of Satan and death.

Death in the flesh can and does cause men to sin at some point in their lives. Often more than once. Sometimes an individual will pick a sin and practice it fluently. And determinists like to point to where it says that God referred to man sinning continuously, ergo the flood. But it can be controlled enough to build human civilizations. Or do you think that’s a part of Satan’s control as well? That Cain built cities and men build civilizations that fully conform to Satanic control? The kingdoms of the earth are the kingdoms of Satan.... You think that is one time that the liar Satan told the truth, don’t you? Just because Jesus didn’t come right out and say he was lying, but instead pointed to a principle that made what he said irrelevant?

I don't think Satan ever told the Truth, for he never knew the Truth nor saw the Truth as the Truth. But God alone made the world and all that is in it and Jesus knew that. I don't think men can control sin nor do I preach they must. In the movie the Matrix, Neo says to Morpheus, "What are you saying, that I am going to be able to dodge bullets?" Morpheus answers, "No Neo, I'm saying when you're ready, you won't have to." You see FC, I believe in freewill more than you do. But it is not found nor proven in the denial of God.

 

[Eventide]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

If you are not a coward like so many other opponents on this issue, we will come to an agreement that is equitable.

There's really nothing wrong with disagreeing on this matter... and referring to opponents to your view as cowards speaks volumes.

Quite dodging the question Eventide. You know what I want you to admit. You have too skillfully circumvented the intent of my question, revealing you are trying to avoid the inevitable implications. I never asked you to tell me that you have never sinned or willfuly been disobedient in the past. Here is the question you continually evade.

I sincerely tried to answer your question, sorry if it's not what you expected.

Do you say you sin and are also now saying you sin willingly, and you want to be a sinner, with all power to be able to not do so at your discretion?

Now you're changing the question.. this is not what you originally asked now is it. Disobedience is exactly that.. it's not deception, it's not that the devil forced me to do it.. (influenced perhaps, but not forced), it's not that I had no choice in the matter.. that's why it's called disobedience.

You once had a great thread on conviction. We can't run from the Truth as you well know. Help me prove it for Christ's sake.

What if you're wrong childeye.. is that even on the table in your mind ? I'll tell you that I'm only sharing my opinion in these matters and that it's derived from many years of experience coupled with the truth of the holy scriptures.. so I admit that I certainly could be wrong.. could you be ?

I would be interested to know, were you to say this to Christ, what do you think he would say?

Why would I say that to the Lord Jesus Christ ? He is the sinless and spotless Lamb of God..

You on the other hand are in the same boat as the rest of us..

Here's the thing. I am not a better man than you or anybody else, and such thinking you offer is vanity.

How can you not be different.. you say that men are forced to sin (no choice in the matter) and that you don't sin.. so how can you think that you're not better than those who sin ?

I also never said I am always victorius in battle with my flesh, even because I battle a spiritual power of darkness that would accuse all men in the weakness of their flesh. That is why you come to a drastically different conclusion than me because you believe in freewill, a futile reasoning of the mind upon which this spiritual darkness is empowered to both tempt and accuse... I give Christ that glory of victory, as the Light of all men. Now will you answer the question or not?

Well if you're not always victorious in the battle, then how come ?

 

[Eventide]

Excellent rant imo FC.. thanks for the commentary !

 

[childeye]

You appear to misunderstand my friend – I said the Bible teaches a universal truth – the truth that man has the choice to serve God or to serve sin and that freedom to choose is ours via God’s gift of free-will. We are either slaves of sin leading to death or we obey God “from the heart" - an obedience that leads to righteousness. The choice is ours. Obedience implies freedom of choice.

You say obedience implies freedom of choice. Moreover, this particular choice is presented before a people who have worshipped idols, man made images of god that serve demonic thought in belief thereof. This idea of obedience to the Truth therefore could only be said from a platform where one already stands in disobedience of it, and in obedience to lies, under falsehood. This is not a freewill therefore that supposes the universal Truth is a freedom based upon being able to deny the Universal Truth presented by God's grace, for it is already in denial to begin with.

Such a view of freewill implies that the ability to obey cannot exist without the ability to disobey. However, we were in obedience to begin with in the garden of Eden and still had freewills then. Since lies exist to obscure the Truth, it is clear therefore that lies usurp the Truth and Truth does not usurp lies. Consequently Light can exist apart from the darkness but darkness cannot exist without the Light since darkness is in reality non existence. So also obedience can exist without disobedience and men still have freewills... Summarily it would be a lie of Satan and serve his kingdom of darkness to believe Light cannot exist without darkness as if they are equal.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

To Whom does this scripture give thanks to?

Have you personally chosen via freewill to obey God unto righteousness or have you chosen to remain a slave of sin? Or are you a robot?

A trick question apart from the robot part. I assure you I am not a robot, but a vessel of spirit. I did not choose to obey God via freewill, but via faith endowed to me by the consequences of His Word abiding in my heart, not the reasoning of the carnal mind that worships itself in lip service to God.

Of course it does. What Bible version do you use? In context - Joshua clearly told the people they had a choice to make that day - they could choose to serve the gods of their forefathers or the gods of the Amorites but his household had already made the choice to serve the LORD. What part of choose/choice/freewill are you missing?

What part am I missing? The part that implies there is more than One God to choose from. Hence Joshua says, As for me and my house we shall serve the Lord. For Joshua knew there are no other gods and therefore no choice.

To be clear the will of man is in the man, and the choice presented is not. For it is presented by God and is not born out of man's will. Without the option put forth, man is not free to choose God. Hence the choice is not made freely but is made out of requirement of God. You will then say, but still we choose. Yes we must, but not to prove we could have gone either way as freewill implies, nor that we can accomplish that which we choose as freewill implies.

For scripture shows that God then proves through the means of a mans choosing, what ignornace and darkness is inside the man so as to make a show of vanity in the flesh of men. This will be a testimony later on, against all man and angels who take God for granted, so as to to show that no created being could serve God without God giving them the attributes necessary to serve Him. So also do we see, that no matter how much they willed to, because of sin present in the man through vanity of the mind and darkness of the heart, they could not serve God and went back to their idols.

For this vanity that presumes to be able to obey God and disobey God at one's discretion is usurping the gifts of God as one's own achievements. And due to such vanity the spiritual powers of darkness ruling over him who has such vanity, cannot be seen, because they are under the guise of freedom and freewill. For if a man says he obeys God, he presumes it was his choice to do so freely, yet if he disobeys God, he also claims it was his free choice. For Satans iniquity was that he was enamored with himself, not that he was ashamed, but such vanity and iniquity in men was seen to bring forth shame of one's self because we are flesh. The boasting of angels in heaven and the shame of men on earth, yet all of it is Pride.

Consequently all accusations against others based on this freewill are to be silenced so that God may have mercy upon all men. For Jesus said to the Pharisees who were want of stoning the adultress caught red handed said, he who has no sin cast the first stone. Afterwards he asked the adultress, where are your accusers? She answered, you have made them all go away. Sadly some men may never admit to the Truth in this world and subsequently remain ruled by a lie. And guess what they will all call it? Their freewill.

 

[childeye]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

There's really nothing wrong with disagreeing on this matter... and referring to opponents to your view as cowards speaks volumes.

It worked, since I knew you were no coward and would not allow me to go unchallenged. So I have belittled myself in my ego, since it is a small price to pay so that our discussion continue. For I am of the mind that what I have to say on this thread is the exposing of lies. I do it for the cause of Christ not for my ego. I am doing unto others what I would have done to me. I want you to commit to the same love for me. I will not appreciate being left behind because you would not care what I think when I asked you for correction. Unfortunately those deceived by Satan do not seek correction. Therefore correct me if you Love me or be corrected because you Love me, but don't leave me blind or you blind because you think it is okay to disagree. Wouldn't Satan's interests have been served if only Jesus would have agreed to disagree. But let us walk in agreement and not fool ourselves by saying we agree to disagree as if that is agreement and we are being agreeable. For it is not agreement any more than loving to hate is loving.

I sincerely tried to answer your question, sorry if it's not what you expected.

Now you're changing the question.. this is not what you originally asked now is it.

I took it from the post where I first asked it. And no you have not answered it and I want you to quite dodging it. You seem afraid, and so I have gone so far as to say such opponents who are leaving the discussion have not the fortitude to continue because what I am saying is True. In this way, I have come out more boldly than I ever have before on this forum. I must be able to say to God, I did my best.

Disobedience is exactly that.. it's not deception, it's not that the devil forced me to do it.. (influenced perhaps, but not forced), it's not that I had no choice in the matter.. that's why it's called disobedience.

So this is watered down with perhaps influenced and yet definitely not forced. I don't need a definition of disobedience since my sincere desire is to expose the powers behind disobedience in men. And so you imply you had a free choice in the matter, covering for those spiritual entities I wish to expose. So you hinder me as I proclaim the knowledge of God that defeats these powers and brings others unto the obedience of Christ where a freewill truly resides. So answer the question. Answer the question. Answer the question. Answer the question. Answer the question, answer the question, Answer the question:


Do you say you sin and are also now saying you sin willingly, and you want to be a sinner, with all power to be able to not do so at your discretion?

What if you're wrong childeye.. is that even on the table in your mind ? I'll tell you that I'm only sharing my opinion in these matters and that it's derived from many years of experience coupled with the truth of the holy scriptures.. so I admit that I certainly could be wrong.. could you be ?

Well. let's see. Since that knowledge of God I am preaching, is the Truth of His Character, and I am vouching with my very soul that He is a Person who would sacrifice Himself to save us, I'd boldly affirm that I cannot be wrong. You have spoken about conviction Eventide, how do you suppose I will be able to walk on water or move mountains by wavering in belief?

Why would I say that to the Lord Jesus Christ ? He is the sinless and spotless Lamb of God..

You on the other hand are in the same boat as the rest of us..

Yes I am in the same boat even as Jesus was, but I am getting out and I'm going to try and walk on the water and it doesn't help you saying I can't while Jesus says I can. Now are you for me or against me says Jesus.

How can you not be different.. you say that men are forced to sin (no choice in the matter) and that you don't sin.. so how can you think that you're not better than those who sin ?

Because I don't believe in freewill. I cannot boast nor therefore am I ashamed. I do not glory in myself that Christ has taken my sin upon himself so that I may become the righteousness of God. I cannot glory in myself for He has chosen to reveal Himself to the lowly things over the High things precisely for that reason.

Well if you're not always victorious in the battle, then how come ?

Because I am not battling flesh and blood but spiritual powers in high places. While I may yet falter in my flesh, I also do not condemn others when they do. I have not therefore been conquering my flesh to become something it cannot ever be, but conquering the powers of darkness that work to tempt men in the flesh to do things that would give me carnal pleasure at the expense or other's pain. I do this through the Love of God that now counts my pain in the flesh my pleasure, because it seeks to spare others pain and rejoices to see it. This is what those in the body of Christ do. They don't talk about considering it an option. It is the way of life.

 

[zeke]

What part am I missing? The part that implies there is more than One God to choose from. Hence Joshua says, As for me and my house we shall serve the Lord. For Joshua knew there are no other gods and therefore no choice.

Do you deny the existence of “the god of this world�

...the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4 )​

Jesus referred to those who 'belong to their father, the devil, who want to carry out their father's desire'. We do have freewill and we can choose to obey God who desires all to be saved or we can choose the way of “the devil†who desires the souls of men. Two choices – we can choose to obey God “from the heart†and become “slaves of righteousness†or we can remain blinded by the god of this world and choose to stay in “sin that leads to deathâ€. We are not robots - God gave us the gift of freewill - we can and must choose - choose to obey God or choose to disobey God.

Again the question - what part of choice/choose/freewill are you missing? Joshua and his house chose to serve God as we all should do.

 

[childeye]

Do you deny the existence of “the god of this world”?

Yes Zeke, I deny there is more than one God. I see Satan and demons behind all false gods.

...the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:4 )

Jesus referred to those who 'belong to their father, the devil, who want to carry out their father's desire'. We do have freewill and we can choose to obey God who desires all to be saved or we can choose the way of “the devil” who desires the souls of men.

I understand your meaning but take issue with the term freewill. For Jesus said the Truth shall set you free implying there is an enslaved will made so by the god of this world who has blinded the minds of unbelievers through a false image of god.

Two choices – we can choose to obey God “from the heart” and become “slaves of righteousness” or we can remain blinded by the god of this world and choose to stay in “sin that leads to death”. We are not robots - God gave us the gift of freewill - we can and must choose - choose to obey God or choose to disobey God.

I agree we are not robots but vessels of spirit. And that the Spirit of God is manifested in men through belief in the One true Image of God sent by God. There are two directions, one towards life and one towards death, but men are not free to choose the way to life until it is given by God to see Him in the Christ. This done by revelation or revealing of the Truth. One must have His Word in one's heart to recognize the Word come in the flesh. Hence scripture says no man can confess Christ without the Holy Spirit.

Again the question - what part of choice/choose/freewill are you missing? Joshua and his house chose to serve God as we all should do.

Yes we should all serve God and He is able to make us able for He is the Potter and we the clay. By His Spirit He says and so we must be reborn of His Spirit which comes by grace through faith. I am not missing any part of choice/choose/or freewill. I am pointing out the predisposition of these due to blindness/sinfulness/vanity.

I do not have any problem with the term freewill as an adjective, but rather the one that is a noun. The adjective would be equivalent to voluntary as in, I did this voluntarily. The freewill I am against is the theological premise that the will itself is always free to choose it's own moral direction. And this freewill is one that is in contradiction to the bible term of freewill that is defined by knowing the Truth or having the knowledge of God as in knowing Him personally. So when Jesus says the truth will set you free, he is implying that men are not free in their wills but slaves to sin, because they do not know God. Consequently the definition of freewill that says men are free to choose their moral direction at all times is a lie since one must have the Truth to be free.

Hence I make a distinction between a will that is free or sovereign in choosing it's own moral direction, and one that is predisposed to choose to do according to who the spiritual father is, whether it be Satan or God. And since without the Truth we are by default servants to lies, so it is there exists the enslaved will as pointed out in 2 Corinthians 4:4.

And here Jesus agrees with me or rather I agree with him, for he says in John 8:38, I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father... And again in John 8:44, Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Consequently these scriptures speak directly against the freewill defined as the theological premise that the will itself is always free to choose it's own moral direction. Consequently we make choices but there are powers of either light or darkness behind those choices.

Zeke, Suppose I asked you, do you deny there is only one True God? You will say no, but there is a choice to be made between the false gods and the True God. I will say but such choices exist because there are lies meant to obscure the Truth not because we have the ability to choose. Most people don't even know what a Christ is. I didn't until God showed me. Once I saw why a Christ is necessary, I began preaching the Gospel. So why is a Christ necessary in your estimation?

 

[zeke]

I do not have any problem with the term freewill as an adjective, but rather the one that is a noun. The adjective would be equivalent to voluntary as in, I did this voluntarily.

The Bible is quite clear – man has the God-given power to choose to do good or evil, to obey God or not to obey Him. Did you personally choose for yourself to serve God or were you forced/coerced to serve Him?

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Josh. 24:15) ​

So why is a Christ necessary in your estimation?

To be the propitiation for our sins...

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:9–10 (NKJV)​

 

[Eventide]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

I'd boldly affirm that I cannot be wrong.

Once again I find it sad that people can actually think like this.

Yes I am in the same boat even as Jesus was.

Evidently you certainly think so.. no wonder you have dreams of saving people..

I'm going to be a coward and bow out now.. there's no point in sharing my opinion (or any other for that matter) if you actually believe that you can't be wrong.

 

[Elijah674]

: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

Originally Posted by childeye
I'd boldly affirm that I cannot be wrong.

_________

Eventide here:



Once again I find it sad that people can actually think like this.
Yes I am in the same boat even as Jesus was.


Evidently you certainly think so.. no wonder you have dreams of saving people..

I'm going to be a coward and bow out now.. there's no point in sharing my opinion (or any other for that matter) if you actually believe that you can't be wrong.
_________

--Elijah here:
Do you not believe that Cain in Gen. 4:7 'believed' this??? There comes a time when the Holy Spirit can no longer reach people, regardless of the one with no saving knowledge, or if they are past the stage of saving as seen in Heb, 6:1-6! Very Sad, yet True!

Heb. 6
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(and in the Rev. 17:1-5 groups, we see the END prophecy even in the compliers caps. So it seems that the next verse cannot reach these ones yet?)

[3] And this will we do, if God permit.
​

[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

​

 

[childeye]

: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

Originally Posted by childeye
I'd boldly affirm that I cannot be wrong.

_________

Eventide here:



Once again I find it sad that people can actually think like this.
Yes I am in the same boat even as Jesus was.


Evidently you certainly think so.. no wonder you have dreams of saving people..

I'm going to be a coward and bow out now.. there's no point in sharing my opinion (or any other for that matter) if you actually believe that you can't be wrong.
_________

--Elijah here:
Do you not believe that Cain in Gen. 4:7 'believed' this??? There comes a time when the Holy Spirit can no longer reach people, regardless of the one with no saving knowledge, or if they are past the stage of saving as seen in Heb, 6:1-6! Very Sad, yet True!

Heb. 6
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(and in the Rev. 17:1-5 groups, we see the END prophecy even in the compliers caps. So it seems that the next verse cannot reach these ones yet?)

[3] And this will we do, if God permit.
​

[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

​

Elijah, please indicate to whom you are referring. I sense some misunderstanding here. Are you saying I can be wrong concerning this? Below is the full context of what I said:

Since that knowledge of God I am preaching, is the Truth of His Character, and I am vouching with my very soul that He is a Person who would sacrifice Himself to save us, I'd boldly affirm that I cannot be wrong.

 

[childeye]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

Once again I find it sad that people can actually think like this.



Evidently you certainly think so.. no wonder you have dreams of saving people..

Yes I do preach the Gospel in hopes of saving people. What is wrong with that?

I'm going to be a coward and bow out now.. there's no point in sharing my opinion (or any other for that matter) if you actually believe that you can't be wrong.

Oh come on Eventide. You are not a coward. You just don't like me thinking I am right, but shouldn't you be considering what I think I'm right about before you make that decision. You are being unreasonable in this view. So you leave without ever answering the question and dealing with the issue put forth by such reasoning.