Why I cringe when people say it's all about choice.

[Danus]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

Once again I find it sad that people can actually think like this.

What's sad about it?

Someone says that Christ found them and they did not choose Christ in their lives, but at that point found it impossible to turn away? Is that what's sad?

I think it's great that you chose Christ, and other say they do as well. Why do you have a problem with people who say they did not choose? Why is that sad to you?

 

[childeye]

The Bible is quite clear – man has the God-given power to choose to do good or evil, to obey God or not to obey Him.

When I read scripture, that's not what it says. First of all it clearly says the knowledge of good and evil was forbidden by God not given by God. But the serpent through subtlety persuaded the woman, and she in turn persuaded the man to disobey God. Moreover, we know men cannot simply choose to obey God since men thinking they had chosen to serve God killed Christ and those men of God who preached the Gospel.

Did you personally choose for yourself to serve God or were you forced/coerced to serve Him?

It has always been in me to desire to serve God as far as I can remember. I don't ever remember choosing this.

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Josh. 24:15)

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:9–10 (NKJV)
​

But we know the people before Joshua chose that day to serve God, but in the end they didn't. That prompts me to wonder why? Freewill teachers would simply say because they chose not to afterward even though before they had chosen to. Well I know that, but that does not suffice in answering the question. The best clue is Joshua saying this: Joshua 24:19
19 Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.

So why do men rebel and sin? I say it is because we have a false image of god that is vanity.

To that end, the scripture you provide, 1John 4: 9-10 is quite telling, for God is revealed through His Love toward us in that He gives His own son for our sins. How can such a God be untrustworthy? Moreover, what manner of darkness dwells between man and God, that God would have to gve up His own son so as to destroy it?

 

[zeke]

When I read scripture, that's not what it says.

But that is exactly what it says - man has the God-given power to choose to do good or evil, to obey God or not to obey Him.

First of all it clearly says the knowledge of good and evil was forbidden by God not given by God. But the serpent through subtlety persuaded the woman, and she in turn persuaded the man to disobey God.

What Holy Writ clearly says is that Adam and Eve chose via freewill - that day - to disobey God. The story cannot be any clearer. It is our personal sin that separates us from God – sins we choose to commit. Again, there are two choices – (1) We can choose to obey God “from the heart” and become “slaves of righteousness” or (2) We can remain blinded by the god of this world and choose to stay in “sin that leads to death”. We are not robots - God gave us the gift of freewill - we can and must choose - choose to obey God or choose to disobey God.

It has always been in me to desire to serve God as far as I can remember. I don't ever remember choosing this.

There are only three possibilities. (1) You personally chose for yourself to serve God . (2) You personally chose not to serve God. Or (3) You were forced/coerced to serve God. Which one identifies your experience?

But we know the people before Joshua chose that day to serve God, but in the end they didn't.

Per Holy Writ – we know Joshua and his house chose that day to serve God; we know that some chose to serve God that day and later “fell from the way”; and we know some chose that day not to serve God. In all three instance the choice was the indiviuals choice just as we today must...

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Josh. 24:15)​

So why do men rebel and sin?

They choose via freewill to rebel and sin – it is our sin that separates us from God.

To that end, the scripture you provide, 1John 4: 9-10 is quite telling, for God is revealed through His Love toward us in that He gives His own son for our sins. How can such a God be untrustworthy? Moreover, what manner of darkness dwells between man and God, that God would have to gve up His own son so as to destroy it?

Sin is a terrible thing in the eyes of God but 1John 4: 9-10 remains true – God loves us and He sent His only begotten Son into the world to be the propitiation for our sins. Those who choose to obey God have the promise of forgiveness and eternal life with Him...

...and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7) ​

 

[Eventide]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

What's sad about it?

Someone says that Christ found them and they did not choose Christ in their lives, but at that point found it impossible to turn away? Is that what's sad?

No, claiming that he cannot be wrong about the vast topic of sin, freewill, etc.. evidently he has it all down.. imo I'd estimate that I haven't even scratched the surface of all that these things entail.

I think it's great that you chose Christ

Another funny one Danus.. thanks for the laugh, I needed it.. although why in the world would you feel the need to say things about me that I have never once said or implied ?

The bible doesn't teach that anyone chooses God.. it teaches plainly that men TRUST in Christ after hearing the gospel, and that AFTER they believe it is God who seals them with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Show me one place where I ever mentioned that I chose God.. you will not find it.. although I'm sure that this will not stop you from saying these things.. it's just the way it is.. so far the last two posts you have addressed to me have completely misrepresented my beliefs..

To me it's as if people need to say things like this to make themselves feel as though they have the upper hand.

 

[Danus]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

No, claiming that he cannot be wrong about the vast topic of sin, freewill, etc.. evidently he has it all down.. imo I'd estimate that I haven't even scratched the surface of all that these things entail.

Another funny one Danus.. thanks for the laugh, I needed it.. although why in the world would you feel the need to say things about me that I have never once said or implied ?

The bible doesn't teach that anyone chooses God.. it teaches plainly that men TRUST in Christ after hearing the gospel, and that AFTER they believe it is God who seals them with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Show me one place where I ever mentioned that I chose God.. you will not find it.. although I'm sure that this will not stop you from saying these things.. it's just the way it is.. so far the last two posts you have addressed to me have completely misrepresented my beliefs..

To me it's as if people need to say things like this to make themselves feel as though they have the upper hand.

You mean like what you just said?

OK, maybe you did not chose God. I thought you where a free-whill'er. The topic is about those who say they choose God. After reading your post I see more where you speak harshly about things like Total depravity and what others say about a particular theology, but then it kind of dies, or you get angree...seems that way.

As far as I know, no one has ever won a trophy on any of these threads. I think there are times to attack a particular belief structure., but I hardly see this thread, or it's subject matter threatening.

Reformed theology get's hammered all the time on this site, but I hardly ever see it get challenged in a meaningful way. Mostly just desperate statements peppered with adjectives, like sad, funny, false doctrine, or any number of other words and meaningless phrases used to bolster a weak lost argument against something others saying these things don't seem to understand themselves.

The bible indicates both mans personal responsibility and choice, as well as mans inability to choose what is in fact good and right. We can trade verses all day long on this, but the fact is that God is the author of it all and not us. There are many Christians who are found by God, not looking for him at all.

Paul for example. He was not looking for Christ. Christ picked him out. Paul was converted by God himself, yet Paul often told others to choose Christ and not to fall away.

I don't think anyone has it all down so to speak. You also admit that you have not got it all figured out, but with that you con't just discount someone else for what they have found within the pale of truth.

I've not read much of anything on this thread that does not square pretty well with the bible. admittedly I've not ready every post, but I have read most. This has been one of the better threads I've seen where questions are asked and answered pretty fair.

 

[Eventide]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

You mean like what you just said?

OK, maybe you did not chose God. I thought you where a free-whill'er. The topic is about those who say they choose God. After reading your post I see more where you speak harshly about things like Total depravity and what others say about a particular theology, but then it kind of dies, or you get angree...seems that way.

Just sharing an opinion like everyone else.. well, almost everyone else.

 

[childeye]

But that is exactly what it says - man has the God-given power to choose to do good or evil, to obey God or not to obey Him.

Zeke I have not ever read this that you say. When did God give men power to disobey Him, to sin? The choice between good and evil cannot be made knowingly without the knowledge of good and evil and God did not want us to eat of it. I'm trying to get you to understand that I don't deny we have a power to choose or make decisions. I'm saying no man is righteous because he decides to be. Moreover righteous men don't choose to do evil.

What Holy Writ clearly says is that Adam and Eve chose via freewill - that day - to disobey God.

You are using the term "freewill" as an adjective I can only assume. I don't dispute that they ate voluntarily, but it was only after accepting a false image of god. I therefore am refering to the noun "free will" that I do not see existing after they accepted the false image.

The story cannot be any clearer. It is our personal sin that separates us from God – sins we choose to commit. Again, there are two choices – (1) We can choose to obey God “from the heart” and become “slaves of righteousness” or (2) We can remain blinded by the god of this world and choose to stay in “sin that leads to death”. We are not robots - God gave us the gift of freewill - we can and must choose - choose to obey God or choose to disobey God.

Your words are more determinism than Free will. Must choose implies a requirement that is inescapable. Moreover you talk about "from the heart" which describes believing more than deciding.

There are only three possibilities. (1) You personally chose for yourself to serve God . (2) You personally chose not to serve God. Or (3) You were forced/coerced to serve God. Which one identifies your experience?

Keke, I don't mean to frustrate you but I already said, I have always desired to serve the True God. Since He made us, I don't see the alternative, nor do I see what good it would do to even want one. If I were to find fault with God doesn't that fault lie in me? Why do you not account for this? This is not your experience? Why then do you believe in Jesus? What other choice would you grapple with that would confound the clarity of whether this man loved like no other?

Per Holy Writ – we know Joshua and his house chose that day to serve God; we know that some chose to serve God that day and later “fell from the way”; and we know some chose that day not to serve God. In all three instance the choice was the indiviuals choice just as we today must...

Zeke we make choices becasue we are alive and sentient so of course each individual makes choices. But pertaining to morality, for instance, it is not in me to choose to rape little boys or get glee from watching someone tortured. So I recognize some wickedness in persons that would do such things. I say they are sick, or controlled by Demons, but I don't say they have free wills.

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Josh. 24:15)
They choose via freewill to rebel and sin – it is our sin that separates us from God.

I do not see where they chose to rebel and sin as you say. I see them forgetting who delivered them and then sinning and turning back to idols.

Sin is a terrible thing in the eyes of God but 1John 4: 9-10 remains true – God loves us and He sent His only begotten Son into the world to be the propitiation for our sins. Those who choose to obey God have the promise of forgiveness and eternal life with Him...

Sin is a terrible thing in my eyes too. Why would anyone want to sin, unless there were something wrong with their eyes?

...and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7)

I would be interested in you explaining how you think the blood of the Christ can cleanse anyone from sin when it's their free will choice to sin.

 

[childeye]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

Just sharing an opinion like everyone else.. well, almost everyone else.

Eventide, I am not better than you, I am in fact your servant according to the very things I believe. Yet you have abandoned the discussion because I claim to have shared the Truth?

This reminds me of where Jesus said, I come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

 

[zeke]

Zeke I have not ever read this that you say. When did God give men power to disobey Him, to sin?

From the get-go my friend – this is seen in the disobedience of Adam and Eve. They chose to disobey - they were not forced to disobey. It is the sins we freely commit that separate us from God. We were not created robots – God has given us the freedom to choose right or wrong. God is not a Calvinist. We must "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" – God or sin?

When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.
(Eze 18:26 NKJV)​

 

[childeye]

From the get-go my friend – this is seen in the disobedience of Adam and Eve. They chose to disobey - they were not forced to disobey. It is the sins we freely commit that separate us from God. We were not created robots – God has given us the freedom to choose right or wrong. God is not a Calvinist. We must "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" – God or sin?

I think we are covering ground that has already been covered, Zeke. As I said you are equating free will with being alive and sentient. That is why you keep giving the robot defense. But to be forthright, you must admit I am not here debating whether we are alive and sentient. I am discussing what the vanity is that leads to sin, how this affects our wills, and how God defeats it.

I have already pointed out that Eve was beguiled. You have not reciprocated with any response addressing the scriptural facts I have presented that don't agree with your view.

So I ask you directly. Are you denying that Eve was beguiled? Does a person who is deceived by another know what they are doing? Wouldn't it be iniquity to think they sin of their own free will when we ourselves have also fallen for the same deception and sinned?

When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.

(Eze 18:26 NKJV)
​

The above scripture makes the point of my thread. For iniquity is dragged around by vanity as the scripture below shows...
Isaiah 5:18
King James Version (KJV)

18Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:

 

[zeke]

Zeke. As I said you are equating free will with being alive and sentient.

I am presenting free-will as it has been revealed. Man has been created in God's image and that image includes the gift of rationalization and the responsibility to choose to obey God or disobey God. We are slaves to whomever we obey – God or sin. All have sinned and it is our sin that separates us from God. It is the blood of Christ that reconciles us to God. God is not a Calvinist and God does not force man to sin – man chooses to sin via free-will.

So I ask you directly. Are you denying that Eve was beguiled?

Did I ever deny that? Eve was deceived by Satan but being deceived did not give her license to disobey God's command and not face the consequences of her personal sin. Satan has blinded the minds of the unbelievers today, even to the point that they fail to see “the light of the gospel” but that does not excuse them from God's judgment. Those who do not obey from the heart he gospel of Christ will be condemned.

What is your point and how do you think it supports your notion?

 

[zeke]

The above scripture makes the point of my thread.

Lol - you think every scripture supports your notion but you are mistaken. The passage presents the universal truth that runs throughout Holy Writ - the "righteous man" who, via free-will chooses to turn away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in it will be lost.

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Josh. 24:15)​

 

[jasoncran]

god judges satan for sure but his charges are different then men who haven repented that said, childeye, read up on calivinism and what the tulip says. you are off. its not no freewill but limited freewill. we dont have freewill in that two forces are overpowering to our will. we have but two choices (sin and death or repentance and life) if god doesnt reveal himself to you then you remain in option one by default of the U in the tulip.

that is what the calvinist argue. please get that right.im not in anyway a calvinist but at least made some effort to get the tulip down.

 

[childeye]

I am presenting free-will as it has been revealed. Man has been created in God's image and that image includes the gift of rationalization and the responsibility to choose to obey God or disobey God. We are slaves to whomever we obey – God or sin. All have sinned and it is our sin that separates us from God. It is the blood of Christ that reconciles us to God. God is not a Calvinist and God does not force man to sin – man chooses to sin via free-will.

Neither am I a Calvinist. It is not a revelation that men can disobey God and live unless you call the lies of Satan a revelation. Did you know that sin ends in death? Why would one choose it?

Rationalization counts for nothing without true knowledge, since the carnal mind rationalizes completely differently than the spiritual mind. The carnal mind does not even see the things of God so as to be able to obey or disobey. Hence man chooses via a will that is either carnal or spiritual and each define success and failure by a completely different set of standards. The spiritual values the Eternal Spirit of Love and treasures secured in heaven. The spiritual mind sees the Truth as a Spirit Whom without we would not even see our sin let alone choose it. The carnal mind seeks and values worldly things and the lusts of this world and cannot be subject to God.

Did I ever deny that? Eve was deceived by Satan but being deceived did not give her license to disobey God's command and not face the consequences of her personal sin.

Do I think you have denied it? Yes I honestly do in some degree. An absolute free will implies a culpability that can blame no other but one's self. It mitigates nothing and has no cause for mercy or understanding. Yet God punished the devil for what he had done and put Satan under the woman and the woman under the Man. Obviously the devil had something to do with it. Even Jesus said, I come to destroy the works of the devil, and accounts all sinners as children of Satan. Jesus does not speak of freewill anywhere. I think we all have sinned and been decieved into it otherwise Jesus would noy have said, the Truth would set us free. Not believing in Freewill does not make us any less sorry it happened either, nor does freewill even make us care about how our actions affect others. Love does that.

So it makes no sense to me that we would insist on claiming we knowingly and wantonly sin or obey God at our leisure. I certainly don't want to be a sinner, and I also give the benefit of the doubt that others don't. Unless they have no love, or no idea they are sinning, that would be the only way I can see one would want to have sin. Otherwise, I too would be afraid to think that without believing we are in control of ourselves via freewill, I will run out and sin,sin,sin thinking I now have a license to sin. But this is not the case. I don't believe in freewill, and yet it is Godly Love that still empowers me to care how I affect others. The difference is I praise God for that Love, not me for my choice.

Satan has blinded the minds of the unbelievers today, even to the point that they fail to see “the light of the gospel” but that does not excuse them from God's judgment. Those who do not obey from the heart he gospel of Christ will be condemned.

God will certainly judge that as you say. It is clear to me that we have no room to judge so as to condemn others, since we ourselves have need of mercy and understanding and also stand condemned as we comdemn. This is what Christianity teaches.
Romans 2
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

What is your point and how do you think it supports your notion?

My point is that there is a vanity that blinds men and keeps them alienated from God. This vanity assumes men are free to obey or disobey God at their leisure, when in fact they are only flesh and there is nothing good in them but what belongs to God in the first place. This supports the claim that we should acknowledge Him in both the Spirits of Love and Truth as necessary for righteousness instead of us counting ourselves good or bad according to our own will power. This is no different than saying we are saved by grace through faith.

 

[childeye]

Lol - you think every scripture supports your notion but you are mistaken. The passage presents the universal truth that runs throughout Holy Writ - the "righteous man" who, via free-will chooses to turn away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in it will be lost.

"choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Josh. 24:15)
​

Scripture shows we all have sinned and are deserving of death according to the Old Testament. The only hope for salvation is found in the promise of The New Testament, wherein a promise to Abraham was made before the Old Testament was ever put forth. And this is done by the revelation of the Christ by grace through faith. And I do think all scripture supports that assertion.

I don't know where you get that the universal Truth is that men have freewills. Nor does scripture speak of it it as you claim. The Universal Truth is that men needed a True Image of God to believe in so as to be made righteous. If we could choose not to sin by a free will we would have life according to the Old Testament. But righteousness is required to not sin and to obey God and that comes by grace.

Galatians 2:21
King James Version (KJV)

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[childeye]

god judges satan for sure but his charges are different then men who haven repented that said, childeye, read up on calivinism and what the tulip says. you are off. its not no freewill but limited freewill. we dont have freewill in that two forces are overpowering to our will. we have but two choices (sin and death or repentance and life) if god doesnt reveal himself to you then you remain in option one by default of the U in the tulip.

that is what the calvinist argue. please get that right.im not in anyway a calvinist but at least made some effort to get the tulip down.

I don't really care what Calvin said, nor do I even understand the tulip because of semantics. Perhaps you could explain it to me, but if you are not a Calvinist I could never be sure what you discern is in fact accurate.

I do care what Christ said however. The only will he called free is the one who has the Truth of God. I will aknowledge such a freewill exists making the distinction between an enslaved will that also exists. But I do not acknowledge then a freewill that is absolute. Consequently, whether it's no free will or limited free will depends upon how one defines free will. The pondering that men choose God and yet God chooses who He reveals Himself to, is the part of free will this thread is addressing. This an issue of how much persuading is enough for someone to be convinced to where he believes and so chooses God. I think belief or faith precedes such obedience unto the Gospel. The beggars have the upper hand here, since beggars aren't choosers. Is this what you mean by a limited freewill?

 

[Eventide]

Re: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak..

Eventide, I am not better than you,

Maybe in your opinion you're not better.. although from what you have said in this thread I can't see how you can't be better than me... you said that people are forced to sin and that YOU do not sin ! ! ! So how does that work.. you do not sin and yet other people are forced to sin..? How come you're not forced to sin like everyone else ?

You also said that you can't be wrong..

You're clearly better than me childeye.

I am in fact your servant according to the very things I believe.

Well then, in summary all that you have served me is that you do not sin, that others are forced to sin, and that you can't be wrong.. I can typically do ok without that service lol.

Yet you have abandoned the discussion because I claim to have shared the Truth?

No, because you can't be wrong.. so do the math, if you can't be wrong then what's the point of any other view.. ? Do you want to correct everyone else.. is that it ?

 

[jasoncran]

I don't really care what Calvin said, nor do I even understand the tulip because of semantics. Perhaps you could explain it to me, but if you are not a Calvinist I could never be sure what you discern is in fact accurate.

I do care what Christ said however. The only will he called free is the one who has the Truth of God. I will aknowledge such a freewill exists making the distinction between an enslaved will that also exists. But I do not acknowledge then a freewill that is absolute. Consequently, whether it's no free will or limited free will depends upon how one defines free will. The pondering that men choose God and yet God chooses who He reveals Himself to, is the part of free will this thread is addressing. This an issue of how much persuading is enough for someone to be convinced to where he believes and so chooses God. I think belief or faith precedes such obedience unto the Gospel. The beggars have the upper hand here, since beggars aren't choosers. Is this what you mean by a limited freewill?

so just because one doesnt believe in something doesnt mean that one cant know the arguments. otherwise i coudnt debat islam. judiasm as i dont know(believe ) in their version of dieties.

i listen to a calvinist pastor dialy. its from him that i learned the stance.the problem for you is this, if god allows his creations to die and without any chance to reject him then its like this. you here three kids in pain and about die, you can save all three without any effort but you choose the one that you like the most and let the others die. that is why i think many dont like calvinism.in essence that is what it says.when the bible says god is longsuffering so that all may come.

 

[Danus]

i listen to a calvinist pastor dialy. its from him that i learned the stance.the problem for you is this, if god allows his creations to die and without any chance to reject him then its like this. you here three kids in pain and about die, you can save all three without any effort but you choose the one that you like the most and let the others die. that is why i think many dont like calvinism.in essence that is what it says.when the bible says god is longsuffering so that all may come.

.......That is how Calvin is interpreted and I don't fully fault anyone for that line of thinking alone, but Calvin's TULIP runs far higher than that type of thinking.

Does anyone have to understand Calvin to be a Christian? NO. However, to say Calvin is dead wrong, or not orthodoxy is really saying "I don't understand Calvin." and that's where the truth to his being attacked rest.

Calvin did not discover anything that was not already said, and that's the biggest clue to understanding John Calvin. Was he a bit one-sided, a little out there intellectually? Yeah, maybe, I think so, but understanding him honestly would do one better than relentlessly attacking something and falsely labeling it "Calvinism".

 

[zeke]

.
However, to say Calvin is dead wrong, or not orthodoxy is really saying "I don't understand Calvin."

I understand the error of Calvinism and can easy say Calvin was 'dead wrong' about many issues.