why I don't trust trinitarians interpretations

[Imagican]

I use Jesus' teachings and warning when I make all my discernment. Jesus says bad trees cannot produce good fruit. Trinitarians are promoting sin by supporting the military which is against Jesus' teaching of "love your enemy". They are doing the exact opposite of what Jesus teaches by supporting and joining the military. This is another major rotten fruit as a whole. I realize that Mennonites are pacifists too but they are one of very few trinitarians.

How do you come to the conclusion that "supporting and joining the military" equates to "rotten fruit"? Where does Jesus condemn this?

While I do NOT usually debate such issues, I believe that ANYONE that reads scripture AS OFFERED is ABLE to CLEARLY see that Christ TAUGHT 'forgiveness'. He offered this EXPLICITLY. Therefore, if we are to LOVE OUR ENEMIES, it would ONLY stand to REASON that we should NOT KILL THEM.

While we most definitely live in a 'secular world', we have been COMMANDED by Christ AND the apostles to SEPARATE ourselves FROM it.

Now, Question:

Do you BELIEVE that ANY apostle would have JOINED a military cause? That ANY apostle would have 'gone to WAR' and KILLED others?

It's a SIMPLE question that requires but a SIMPLE answer.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I use Jesus' teachings and warning when I make all my discernment. Jesus says bad trees cannot produce good fruit. Trinitarians are promoting sin by supporting the military which is against Jesus' teaching of "love your enemy". They are doing the exact opposite of what Jesus teaches by supporting and joining the military. This is another major rotten fruit as a whole. I realize that Mennonites are pacifists too but they are one of very few trinitarians.

How do you come to the conclusion that "supporting and joining the military" equates to "rotten fruit"? Where does Jesus condemn this?

Typical of these guys, Dad...

Focus on one thing that the Bible does not condemn outright, blame it on "trinitarians" as an excuse because they don't understand the profoundness of "GOD IS LOVE". Political correctness gone awry.

Regards

Fran,

While YOU would see it in such a manner, the TRUTH is that there ARE THINGS that Christ taught OUTRIGHT without ANY NEED for 'outside interpretation'. And on THIS He was as CLEAR as it could possibly be offered. HE TAUGHT FORGIVENESS.

And, on top of the teaching, He expressed the PURPOSE for such teachings. For we are TO FORGIVE as we would LIKE to BE FORGIVEN. Now, HOW M ANY out there would like to DIE over POLITICS? How many would choose to be KILLED instead of receive LIFE? Christ did NOT offer: 'Forgive SOME enemies when it's CONVIENIENT' or 'when you FEEL LIKE IT', He simply stated that we ARE TO FORGIVE OUR ENEMIES.

Question: Do YOU believe the words of Christ?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

"And God said, let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness..." Gen 1:26.

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil..." Gen 3:22.

Jesus: Almighty - Rev 1:8
Jesus: Before Abraham - John 8:58.
Jesus: Creator - John 1:3
Jesus: Emmanuel - Mt 1:23 "God with us"
Jesus: God - Lu 1:47;John 1:1;Jude 25
Jesus: Image of the invisible God - Col 1:15
Jesus: Mighty God - Isa 9:6
Jesus: Everlasting Father - Isa 9:6
Jesus: Son of God - Mt 16:16;17:5;Lu 1:35;John 10:36

The Holy Spirit: "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Ghost... thou hast not lied to men, but unto God." Acts 5:3,4.

Do you believe the Word of God?

The Scripture speaks of the Triune God - One in essence, three in person.

You state that the scripture SPEAKS of a 'triune God'- ONce in essence, three in person.

NOw, I CHALLENGE you to PROVE this by offering the scriptures to which you refer.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Quote from 'dad':

I don't see a chapter or verse that backs up your conclusion that "They are doing the exact opposite of what Jesus teaches by supporting and joining the military".

Can you provide one? Where does Jesus speak of the military?

OK dad, I offer the SAME challenge to YOU. Show us the scripture that OUTRIGHT speaks of TRINITY. As a matter of FACT, just offer us ONE LINE that even USES this NAME; "trinity''.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Typical of these guys, Dad...

Focus on one thing that the Bible does not condemn outright, blame it on "trinitarians" as an excuse because they don't understand the profoundness of "GOD IS LOVE". Political correctness gone awry.

Regards

Private interpretation....Aaaahhh. Gotta love it. You can find ANYTHING in there.

Here's to our boys and girls in the military, heroes all, who protect my family and I....And Shad..

From a SECULAR point of view, you may well be CORRECT. But from the words from the mouth of Christ HIMSELF, these are NOT living UP to HIS COMMANDMENTS.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

OK, let's simplify this. WHOLE NEW QUESTION ON THE TOPIC OF JESUS' DIVINITY:

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God [Theos]!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

So, is Jesus God (Theos)?[/quote]

Thomas DIDN'T even BELIEVE the man standing before him was JESUS. So, this DOUBTER makes a STATEMENT concerning HIMSELF and you would USE this to create DOCTRINE that goes against MUCH of what Paul offered? Thomas stating "My Lord and my God'' in NO WAY offers PROOF of his statement. For I could pick up a 'dollar bill and state the SAME THING'. Would it be TRUE? ABSOLUTELY, if I WORSHIPED that dollar AS GOD. But, in TRUTH would my statement MAKE that dollar bill THE GOD and Father of Jesus Christ? I think NOT.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Aren't you saying that Jesus is as equal to His Father? Where does it exactly saying in the Bible that Jesus is equal to His Father?[/quote]

It DOESN'T. As a matter of FACT, the words of Christ HIMSELF offer that the Father is GREATER than HE. And practically EVERY opening of the epistles of Paul offer that God is NOT ONLY our God but THE God of Christ AS WELL. And then when we consider that Christ offered over and over again that ALL that He offered was GIVEN Him BY GOD, then again we have perfect evidence that Christ is NOT God Himself.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[dadof10]

OK, let's simplify this. WHOLE NEW QUESTION ON THE TOPIC OF JESUS' DIVINITY:

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God [Theos]!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

So, is Jesus God (Theos)?

Aren't you saying that Jesus is as equal to His Father? Where does it exactly saying in the Bible that Jesus is equal to His Father?

I'm simply asking you if Jesus is God? If there is only one God, He is obviously Jesus, right? He accepts Thomas' profession. If you don't believe the plain words of Scripture, how would you interpret these verses?

Maybe Thomas was just using the first century Palestinian equivalent of the 21st century exclamation, "Oh, my gosh!!!" Yeah, that's it. He saw the wounds and said (in his best valley girl screech) "My Lord and my God!!!"

 

[dadof10]

While I do NOT usually debate such issues, I believe that ANYONE that reads scripture AS OFFERED is ABLE to CLEARLY see that Christ TAUGHT 'forgiveness'. He offered this EXPLICITLY. Therefore, if we are to LOVE OUR ENEMIES, it would ONLY stand to REASON that we should NOT KILL THEM.

While we most definitely live in a 'secular world', we have been COMMANDED by Christ AND the apostles to SEPARATE ourselves FROM it.

Now, Question:

Do you BELIEVE that ANY apostle would have JOINED a military cause? That ANY apostle would have 'gone to WAR' and KILLED others?

It's a SIMPLE question that requires but a SIMPLE answer.

The apostles were not military men, their offices are strictly religious. The question is not "would the apostles have joined the military", the question is WHERE DOES SCRIPTURE CONDEMN MILITARY SERVICE? That is the OP.

On the subject of the Trinity, you write:

OK dad, I offer the SAME challenge to YOU. Show us the scripture that OUTRIGHT speaks of TRINITY. As a matter of FACT, just offer us ONE LINE that even USES this NAME; "trinity''.

Before you'll believe in the Trinity, you need to specifically see the word "Trinity" in Scripture, yet you'll stretch the words "love your enemies" to mean do not ever kill anyone even if you are in a war? You are taking your personal prejudices into Scripture.

Does the same apply to killing someone who is attempting to take yours or someone elses life? Should we "love our enemies" then or should we protect innocent human life, as our military does on a REGULAR BASIS?

 

[shad]

OK, let's simplify this. WHOLE NEW QUESTION ON THE TOPIC OF JESUS' DIVINITY:

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God [Theos]!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

So, is Jesus God (Theos)?

Aren't you saying that Jesus is as equal to His Father? Where does it exactly saying in the Bible that Jesus is equal to His Father?

I'm simply asking you if Jesus is God? If there is only one God, He is obviously Jesus, right? He accepts Thomas' profession. If you don't believe the plain words of Scripture, how would you interpret these verses?

Maybe Thomas was just using the first century Palestinian equivalent of the 21st century exclamation, "Oh, my gosh!!!" Yeah, that's it. He saw the wounds and said (in his best valley girl screech) "My Lord and my God!!!"

You still cannot find the Scriputre saying Jesus is as equal to His Father. All you do is "lol"?

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

While YOU would see it in such a manner, the TRUTH is that there ARE THINGS that Christ taught OUTRIGHT without ANY NEED for 'outside interpretation'. And on THIS He was as CLEAR as it could possibly be offered. HE TAUGHT FORGIVENESS.

Where exactly did Christ say that military service was against the Law of God??? Verse citation would be handy here, rather than your capital letters that emphasize rather than prove...

Christ said "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's". That would include military service, if called upon by Caesar. That, along with taxes, is the price we pay for peace - freedom is not free, in case you are one of those silly politically-correct liberals. In addition, John the Baptist did not call for military men to quit their service. He told them to stop extorting, not throw down their swords.

Forgiveness does not mean allowing yourself to be killed. That is not God's will.

And clearly, we see the Jews did not believe that arming themselves was against the Law of God.

As usual, you present a point of view that cannot stand against the Scriptures...

 

[francisdesales]

As a matter of FACT, just offer us ONE LINE that even USES this NAME; "trinity''.

How many times have you been told this is an idiotic line of attack, one a child would use?

Where is the word "bible" in the Sacred Scriptures??? I guess there is no such thing...

Case closed.

 

[dadof10]

Thomas DIDN'T even BELIEVE the man standing before him was JESUS. So, this DOUBTER makes a STATEMENT concerning HIMSELF and you would USE this to create DOCTRINE that goes against MUCH of what Paul offered?

I'm not pointing out Thomas' statement, I'm pointing out JESUS' RESPONSE. He says ""Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

Believe what? This is what you have to deal with.

Thomas stating "My Lord and my God'' in NO WAY offers PROOF of his statement.

Jesus' POSITIVE RESPONSE does. He AGREES WITH THOMAS.

For I could pick up a 'dollar bill and state the SAME THING'. Would it be TRUE? ABSOLUTELY, if I WORSHIPED that dollar AS GOD. But, in TRUTH would my statement MAKE that dollar bill THE GOD and Father of Jesus Christ? I think NOT.

Huh? If you called a dollar bill "god", no, it would not make it god, but if Jesus were in the room with you, HE WOULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU AS HE AGREED WITH THOMAS. That's the difference.

If Thomas was looking at a dollar bill (or ANYTHING ELSE) and exclaimed "My Lord and my God", what do you think Jesus' response would be? Do you think He would have said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe"?

There is NO other way to interpret these verses. It is a Scriptural FACT that Jesus is somehow God. The alternative is not open to us. It's up to us, through faith, to accept this Biblical doctrine, even if complete understanding is beyond our limited human intelligence.

 

[dadof10]

I'm simply asking you if Jesus is God? If there is only one God, He is obviously Jesus, right? He accepts Thomas' profession. If you don't believe the plain words of Scripture, how would you interpret these verses?

Maybe Thomas was just using the first century Palestinian equivalent of the 21st century exclamation, "Oh, my gosh!!!" Yeah, that's it. He saw the wounds and said (in his best valley girl screech) "My Lord and my God!!!"

You still cannot find the Scriputre saying Jesus is as equal to His Father. All you do is "lol"?

I'm simply asking you if Jesus is God? If there is only one God, He is obviously Jesus, right? He accepts Thomas' profession. If you don't believe the plain words of Scripture, how would you interpret these verses?

Is this better? No more lightheartedness. Now, answer the question, WITH NO JOY OR FUN, Is Jesus God?

 

[kingdavid]

So, is Jesus God (Theos)?[/quote]


do you understand the relationship between God and His Son? God dwelled in Christ in the flesh and the reverse is true in the Spirit, Christ dwelled in the Father. jesus said in john 14:11...believe me that i am in my Father and the Father in me...

here in the flesh, it was God dwelled in Christ. it was the BOTH of them manifest in the self-same person but you only see one/Christ. they are not seperate from each other

In the Spirit, Christ dwelled in the Father. It is still the both of them in the self-same person but you only see one/GOD-the Word. again, they are not seperate from each other. this was the oneness that christ spoke to the Father of in prayer. you could say he was a dual-person or God and Christ were yoked together.

he who hath the doctrine of Christ hath BOTH(not trinity or oneness) the Father and the Son.

 

[francisdesales]

I'm not pointing out Thomas' statement, I'm pointing out JESUS' RESPONSE. He says ""Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

Believe what? This is what you have to deal with.

Excellent point. Probably won't sink in, though, and we'll be asked yet again "where is the word trinity in the bible?"

There is NO other way to interpret these verses. It is a Scriptural FACT that Jesus is somehow God. The alternative is not open to us. It's up to us, through faith, to accept this Biblical doctrine, even if complete understanding is beyond our limited human intelligence.

That's the problem with these guys. No more sense of the transcendant mystery. It's all about what they understand rationally. The end result of the misguided sola scriptura debacle. It leads one to think that God is what they happen to understand rationally, totally forgetting that God is a mystery and we should accept what He has told us about Himself. Clearly, God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit, yet there remains ONE united God. Trinity explains both without destroying either side.

Regards

 

[shad]

I'm simply asking you if Jesus is God? If there is only one God, He is obviously Jesus, right? He accepts Thomas' profession. If you don't believe the plain words of Scripture, how would you interpret these verses?

Is this better? No more lightheartedness. Now, answer the question, WITH NO JOY OR FUN, Is Jesus God?

You still cannot find the Scripture saying that Jesus is as equal with His Father.

 

[shad]

I'm not pointing out Thomas' statement, I'm pointing out JESUS' RESPONSE. He says ""Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

Believe what? This is what you have to deal with.

Excellent point. Probably won't sink in, though, and we'll be asked yet again "where is the word trinity in the bible?"

It maybe excellent point for you but you still cannot find the Scriputre saying Jesus is as equal with His Father.

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

While YOU would see it in such a manner, the TRUTH is that there ARE THINGS that Christ taught OUTRIGHT without ANY NEED for 'outside interpretation'. And on THIS He was as CLEAR as it could possibly be offered. HE TAUGHT FORGIVENESS.

Where exactly did Christ say that military service was against the Law of God??? Verse citation would be handy here, rather than your capital letters that emphasize rather than prove...

Christ said "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's". That would include military service, if called upon by Caesar. That, along with taxes, is the price we pay for peace - freedom is not free, in case you are one of those silly politically-correct liberals. In addition, John the Baptist did not call for military men to quit their service. He told them to stop extorting, not throw down their swords.

Forgiveness does not mean allowing yourself to be killed. That is not God's will.

And clearly, we see the Jews did not believe that arming themselves was against the Law of God.

As usual, you present a point of view that cannot stand against the Scriptures...

I believe we were told that if someone STRIKES us, we are NOT ONLY to NOT 'strike back', but to allow them to strike the OTHER cheek if that is THEIR desire.

As I stated before, I am WELL aware of HOW some FEEL about this issue and rarely do I even ATTEMPT to offer GUIDANCE to such as these. For it is RARELY WORTH THE EFFORT. For SOME will retain whatsoever they CHOOSE to regadless of scripture. So, Fran, EVEN if I offered you scripture that STATES that we are NOT to 'go to war', YOU would OBVIOUSLY find a 'different way' to interpret it. You have made this perfectly CLEAR on a NUMBER of issues. That if it is NOT something that you AGREE with, you simply manipulate scripture in order to 'alter it' in YOUR favor.

Nothing NEW. For this is what MANY have CHOSEN to DO since the INCEPTION of Christianity. Pick and choose those THINGS that they are ABLE to bear and then either ignore or alter those things that they are NOT.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Anth]

I'm simply asking you if Jesus is God? If there is only one God, He is obviously Jesus, right? He accepts Thomas' profession. If you don't believe the plain words of Scripture, how would you interpret these verses?

Is this better? No more lightheartedness. Now, answer the question, WITH NO JOY OR FUN, Is Jesus God?

Boy this is a wild thread because it is mixing a couple of complex items in a way that - well - leads to more complexity than I am capable of handling.

However, in answer to D's question -

YES - Jesus is God - exactly as Thomas stated - the question needs to be asked - in what SENSE is Jesus God (in what SENSE did Thomas recognize/assent to Jesus being theos). You answer is clearly taught by Jesus Himself in Jn 10:34.

The second issue someone raised was where is Jesus "equal" to God. Ph2:6 is the vs with the obvious implication that Jesus is equal to God. Again, the question is "in what SENSE" is Jesus equal to God.
The sense again is evident - He is equal to God with respect to this creation in the POSITION that God has given Him - such that "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus IS Lord". To be Lord is a POSITION (of authority/power, etc.).

Ultimately, Jesus is in a lesser position than God as ultimately He submits Himself to God even as we submit ourselves to Him (I don't recall the vs but it is VERY specific).

This s/b straightforward and eliminate a bit of the questions above.

Best,
Anth