why I don't trust trinitarians interpretations

[Imagican]

Fran,

While YOU would see it in such a manner, the TRUTH is that there ARE THINGS that Christ taught OUTRIGHT without ANY NEED for 'outside interpretation'. And on THIS He was as CLEAR as it could possibly be offered. HE TAUGHT FORGIVENESS.

Where exactly did Christ say that military service was against the Law of God??? Verse citation would be handy here, rather than your capital letters that emphasize rather than prove...

Christ said "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's". That would include military service, if called upon by Caesar. That, along with taxes, is the price we pay for peace - freedom is not free, in case you are one of those silly politically-correct liberals. In addition, John the Baptist did not call for military men to quit their service. He told them to stop extorting, not throw down their swords.

You have chosen to distort the TRUE meaning of FREEDOM. For TRUE freedom comes from LOVE and NOT simply being able to be 'free' from authority. So, what YOU speak of as 'freedom' is the ability to PRETEND that you have the ability to DO as YOU see fit. But the TRUTH is that this can, at BEST, ONLY be an ILLUSION. TRUE freedom is to be FREE from GUILT. And the ONLY way that this exists is through the LOVE of God as offered through Christ Jesus.

Forgiveness does not mean allowing yourself to be killed. That is not God's will.

So, NOW you are able to STATE God's will that HE HAS NEVER EVEN OFFERED. Hmmm............

Let me elaborate:

God's will is that we COME to the TRUTH. And it is APPARENT that once this 'takes place' in one's life, then THIS life, (the PHYSICAL), is NOT something to be WORSHIPED. Therefore, for those that are PREPARED, it is God's will that we FOLLOW TRUTH, not DEFEND our PHYSICAL LIVES.

So, by YOUR understanding offered in this post, you CLEARLY show that you have found LITTLE truth and are therefore UNPREPARED to MEET YOUR MAKER. Not an accusation in judgement. Just a PERSONAL observation. For those that ARE PREPARED clearly understand that this life is PRACTICALLY USELESS so long as we live IN THE FLESH.

What is the GREATEST THING that we are ABLE to accomplish according to Christ? I will wait for your answer.

And clearly, we see the Jews did not believe that arming themselves was against the Law of God.

As usual, you present a point of view that cannot stand against the Scriptures...

No, I offer and UNDERSTANDING of scripture that you are UNABLE to come to due to WHAT you 'worship'. For you have been TRAINED to place YOUR faith in a 'man-made institution' and SO LONG as this is YOUR GOD, then you will NEVER come to ANY truth as to scripture, (so long as those that YOU worship don't TEACH it to you).

You would compare ORDERS from God to A specific people to be the SAME as the words and principles taught by Jesus Christ? You would actually have the audacity to state that we live under the SAME covenant of that of the Jews five thousand years ago? Hmmmm,,,,,,,,,again.

So Fran, continue if you please, to offer what it is that you offer. Those that are ABLE will CLEARLY see the error of your understanding.

Hitler was the 'Caesar' of Germany. From your perspective, I suppose that the 'Christians' that JOINED his army were JUSTIFIED in such decision? Hmmmm.................. Or that Him KILLING THEM would put them in a WORSE postition than JOINING HIM?

Since it is practically IMPOSSIBLE to KNOW the motives of a government that goes to war for ANY reason other than personal protection, I propose that WE CANNOT know if what we go to war for is GOOD or BAD. So, if we simply DO as commanded by Christ and DON'T cause damage to our brothers and sisters, then WHATEVER HAPPENS, (IF WE HAVE FAITH), IS the will of God. If we DIE for NOT fighting, then that IS the WILL of God.

For we were told not ONLY to love our NEIGHBORS and family AS OUSELVES, but we were TOLD to LOVE OUR ENEMIES AS WELL. And IF we are ABLE to BE what we are MEANT to BE, then we have NO FEAR of what someone can DO TO US. For there is NOTHING that can compare to what CHRIST suffered for US. And we were TOLD to pick up OUR OWN CROSSES and bare them.

So where your twisted philosophy of belief comes from I do NOT know. But in truth, you have offered NOTHING other than 'wisdom of men' DEVOID of ANY TRUTH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[dadof10]

You still cannot find the Scripture saying that Jesus is as equal with His Father.

We're not there yet, Shad. I've not yet claimed the Father and Jesus are equal, I'm simply asking you a question that you refuse to answer because an honest answer goes against JW theology. It's obvious from the context of Jn. 20 that Jesus considers himself God, and you know it, which is why you won't answer. Will you admit this FACT so we can move on?

 

[dadof10]

That's the problem with these guys. No more sense of the transcendant mystery. It's all about what they understand rationally. The end result of the misguided sola scriptura debacle. It leads one to think that God is what they happen to understand rationally, totally forgetting that God is a mystery and we should accept what He has told us about Himself. Clearly, God is Father, God is Son, and God is Holy Spirit, yet there remains ONE united God.

If I could fully comprehend the nature of God, I think I'd cease to believe in Him. How could the Creator of Time and the universe be fully understood by His creatures, and what person in their right mind would expect it? He should be Mystery, especially His nature.

That God is one: Father, Son and Spirit, is beyond my comprehension. That Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not in "some way" God, is not open for debate if you believe the Bible.

Trinity explains both without destroying either side.

That's a good way to put it, Joe. It's the "last man standing", once everything is taken into account, the only possible explanation.

 

[dadof10]

do you understand the relationship between God and His Son? God dwelled in Christ in the flesh and the reverse is true in the Spirit, Christ dwelled in the Father. jesus said in john 14:11...believe me that i am in my Father and the Father in me...

here in the flesh, it was God dwelled in Christ. it was the BOTH of them manifest in the self-same person but you only see one/Christ. they are not seperate from each other

In the Spirit, Christ dwelled in the Father. It is still the both of them in the self-same person but you only see one/GOD-the Word. again, they are not seperate from each other. this was the oneness that christ spoke to the Father of in prayer. you could say he was a dual-person or God and Christ were yoked together.

he who hath the doctrine of Christ hath BOTH(not trinity or oneness) the Father and the Son.

I'm Catholic and believe in the Trinity. I think you may be misunderstanding me, with good reason. I'm not being too clear.

I'm asking only about Jesus being God at this juncture, not trying to prove the entire doctrine of the Trinity (as if I could ). Just taking baby steps.

 

[francisdesales]

I believe we were told that if someone STRIKES us, we are NOT ONLY to NOT 'strike back', but to allow them to strike the OTHER cheek if that is THEIR desire.

If you take this literally, then we are all dead, long time ago... As usual, because you are not guided, you get tripped up on Scriptures.

No, this is hyperbole, just like cutting your arm off or plucking out your eyes if they cause you to sin. I suggest you try again...

 

[dadof10]

I believe we were told that if someone STRIKES us, we are NOT ONLY to NOT 'strike back', but to allow them to strike the OTHER cheek if that is THEIR desire.

If you take this literally, then we are all dead, long time ago... As usual, because you are not guided, you get tripped up on Scriptures.

No, this is hyperbole, just like cutting your arm off or plucking out your eyes if they cause you to sin. I suggest you try again...

....And "Call no man on earth father..."

 

[francisdesales]

Where exactly did Christ say that military service was against the Law of God??? Verse citation would be handy here, rather than your capital letters that emphasize rather than prove...

You have chosen to distort the TRUE meaning of FREEDOM. For TRUE freedom comes from LOVE and NOT simply being able to be 'free' from authority. So, what YOU speak of as 'freedom' is the ability to PRETEND that you have the ability to DO as YOU see fit. But the TRUTH is that this can, at BEST, ONLY be an ILLUSION. TRUE freedom is to be FREE from GUILT. And the ONLY way that this exists is through the LOVE of God as offered through Christ Jesus.

I see. Try to worm your way out of another mess you have gotten into by typing baloney on the keyboard. Ignoring the call for Scripture verses is becoming a regular strategy for you...

Where exactly is that verse that says military service is against the Law of God? Where does Jesus teach that military service is against the Law of God???

I do not intend on reading your sophisms, they are merely your un-authoritative opinions. Just provide the verses. Otherwise, I am not interested in your twisting of God's Scriptures.

 

[shad]

I'm simply asking you if Jesus is God? If there is only one God, He is obviously

YES - Jesus is God - exactly as Thomas stated - the question needs to be asked - in what SENSE is Jesus God (in what SENSE did Thomas recognize/assent to Jesus being theos). You answer is clearly taught by Jesus Himself in Jn 10:34.

Where exactly did Jesus say He is God? You cannot find Scripture to prove your claim, dude.

The second issue someone raised was where is Jesus "equal" to God. Ph2:6 is the vs with the obvious implication that Jesus is equal to God. Again, the question is "in what SENSE" is Jesus equal to God.
The sense again is evident - He is equal to God with respect to this creation in the POSITION that God has given Him - such that "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus IS Lord". To be Lord is a POSITION (of authority/power, etc.).

Where in the Bible does it say Jesus is equal with His Father? Again you cannot find the Scripture saying that.

 

[shad]

Where does Jesus teach that military service is against the Law of God???

Jesus says to "love your enemy". If you love someone you don't kill them. The military is killing institution. Look it up in the dictionary.

 

[shad]

....And "Call no man on earth father..."

You still cannot find a Scripture saying Jesus is equal to His Father. All you do is "lol"

 

[dadof10]

....And "Call no man on earth father..."

You still cannot find a Scripture saying Jesus is equal to His Father. All you do is "lol"

Maybe you missed my last post to you. For your convienience I'll re-post it...You're welcome.

We're not there yet, Shad. I've not yet claimed the Father and Jesus are equal, I'm simply asking you a question that you refuse to answer because an honest answer goes against JW theology. It's obvious from the context of Jn. 20 that Jesus considers himself God, and you know it, which is why you won't answer. Will you admit this FACT so we can move on?

 

[dadof10]

Where exactly did Jesus say He is God? You cannot find Scripture to prove your claim, dude.

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

This time, just a wave, no LOL...

 

[francisdesales]

Where exactly did Jesus say He is God? You cannot find Scripture to prove your claim, dude.

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

This time, just a wave, no LOL...

Yes, that is pretty solid... for most, anyways...

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God John 13:3 He says this also in John 3:35, in case there are people out there who have further emmasculated the Scriptures.

I am wondering if God has given anyone else ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS, considering the Bible says that only God has such glory...

Ah, well, just another of those verses that, with a bit of thought, clearly show that whoever sees the Christ sees the Father...

Regards

 

[shad]

I've not yet claimed the Father and Jesus are equal, I'm simply asking you a question that you refuse to answer because an honest answer goes against JW theology. It's obvious from the context of Jn. 20 that Jesus considers himself God, and you know it, which is why you won't answer. Will you admit this FACT so we can move on?

So you admit that Jesus is not co-equal with God? You should since you cannot find in the Scripture.

BTW, I am not a JW. I dont have to worry about them.

 

[shad]

Ah, well, just another of those verses that, with a bit of thought, clearly show that whoever sees the Christ sees the Father...

Regards

Where does the Scripture clear says Jesus is equal with God? You talk so much without actual Scripture knowledge.

 

[shad]

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

This time, just a wave, no LOL...

He is not saying He is equal with His Father, dude.

 

[dadof10]

So you admit that Jesus is not co-equal with God? You should since you cannot find in the Scripture.

You are having trouble with the English language. Here is what I wrote:

We're not there yet, Shad. I've not yet claimed the Father and Jesus are equal. I'm simply asking you a question that you refuse to answer because an honest answer goes against JW theology. It's obvious from the context of Jn. 20 that Jesus considers himself God, and you know it, which is why you won't answer. Will you admit this FACT so we can move on?

And instead of addressing the point, you twist my words. Great, one more on these boards.

 

[dadof10]

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

This time, just a wave, no LOL..

He is not saying He is equal with His Father, dude.

That is not what I'm responding to, Dude. The part that you conveniently DIDN'T PASTE ABOVE is your foolish contention:

Where exactly did Jesus say He is God? You cannot find Scripture to prove your claim, dude.

A little credibility, please.

 

[shad]

And instead of addressing the point, you twist my words. Great, one more on these boards.

Who is twisting your words? I am simply pointing out your "Jesus and His Father co-equal" doctrine is false because it is not in the Bible. You are the one who is tryign to avoid the issue. Be a man.

Show us the Scripture. You cannot.

 

[Free]

Everyone play nice or this thread will get shut down, especially since there are numerous threads on this topic already.


Shad,

Several Scriptural passages have been given in the numerous threads that clearly support the deity of Christ. I have yet to see you give any significant response to those passages, just like you are doing above.