Why I want to be left behind

[4afaithfulone]

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. KJV

BUT FOR THE ELECT WHOM HE HATH CHOSEN, ONLY,their days will be shortened because they will be caught up in Rev.12:5 as the Man child aka the One new man in Christ whom were ready and were made in HIS image attributes.

In the Bible the eagle is an unclean bird yet it does represent heads of military armies
Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together
KJV

Are we recognizing the Messiah in the sky in the storms, hurricanes, tornados that every eyes is seeing above us around the world and in the media?
The Jews looked for a warrior Savior, but he came as the Lamb they had rehearsed for centuries so they did not recognize him. Now, we have always expecting a Lamb to return as the Savior, but our grace period is up and there will be time no more for edification of the body of Christ because, just as promised he returns as a warrior in the clouds to fight with the sWord in his mouth in the might of His Father Almighty God, to destroy all who have rejected him to be redeemed. So if one has not accepted the fact that there sin in their life that needs to change, please repent to God now, because it harms us, and all around us in one way shape or form until we have now come to this again Gen.1:2 being formless(without God's moral boundaries) darkness(evil in all our ways), void (empty of love for others welfare)

 

[john darling]

Hi all,

I only read the first page so I hope people don't mind if I end up saying something that's already been said. I take a post trib stance, in that we'll be around for the tribulation before Jesus returns. I'm addressing the OP here:

Pretty straightforward, right? Son of Man shows up. Some are taken. Some are left behind.
The problem is this: taken means killed.

I had the idea that the kind of "taken" Jesus was referring to are those who respond to his call vs those who choose to ignore his call. In the Luke 17 version of this same story Jesus says " in that day (i.e. the end times) let he who is on the house top or in the field not return to take his stuff." In other words, when God calls, we should go and not lament the things he's asking us to leave behind. Those who ignore the call (like the people of Sodom and Noah's day) are "left behind" and eventually destroyed whereas those who heed the call are like the eagles who go where the body is gathered.

In Revelation 12 the woman is carried by the wings of an eagle to a place of safety where she receives care for 42 months. The people who answer when God calls are like these people; he will lead them to safety and provision. Like Jesus saying, "the kingdom of Heaven has come near to you" so too can the kingdom of Heaven move away. When God calls two people to move away from a place or situation and only one responds then it amounts to "leaving behind" those who refuse the leading of the spirit. And since God is the one doing the leading then even though we choose to heed the call, we are still being "taken" or lead to other places of safety.

 

[Eugene]

Hi all,
I only read the first page so I hope people don't mind if I end up saying something that's already been said. I take a post trib stance, in that we'll be around for the tribulation before Jesus returns. I'm addressing the OP here:

I had the idea that the kind of "taken" Jesus was referring to are those who respond to his call vs those who choose to ignore his call. In the Luke 17 version of this same story Jesus says " in that day (i.e. the end times) let he who is on the house top or in the field not return to take his stuff." In other words, when God calls, we should go and not lament the things he's asking us to leave behind. Those who ignore the call (like the people of Sodom and Noah's day) are "left behind" and eventually destroyed whereas those who heed the call are like the eagles who go where the body is gathered.

In Revelation 12 the woman is carried by the wings of an eagle to a place of safety where she receives care for 42 months. The people who answer when God calls are like these people; he will lead them to safety and provision. Like Jesus saying, "the kingdom of Heaven has come near to you" so too can the kingdom of Heaven move away. When God calls two people to move away from a place or situation and only one responds then it amounts to "leaving behind" those who refuse the leading of the spirit. And since God is the one doing the leading then even though we choose to heed the call, we are still being "taken" or lead to other places of safety.

Hi Brother @john darling, have you considered that the taking away is associated with those of Noah’s time taken away by the flood as judgment? Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

To me the taking away will be unto those to await the great white throne judgment of Rev 20:11-12. Those left will be them that endured unto the end (Mat 24:13) and saved alive to enter the millennial reign of Christ.

My thoughts.

 

[john darling]

Hi Eugene,

Yes, though when I look at the context of those references to Noah and Lot, I still see support for the interpretation I expressed above.

Look at the things Jesus criticizes Lot and Noah's world over. Eating. Drinking. Buying and selling. Marrying and giving in marriage. Building. planting. All very ordinary, average, mundane activities and yet Jesus saw a problem with them.

I think he was criticizing our tendency to become so wrapped up in the ordinary, average activities of this world that we stop caring about what God wants. So when God says, "go" we say, "But God I just got married" or "But God, I just bought some stuff", much like he described in the parable of the great supper where all the invitees made excuses not to go.

This is why he said, "Let he who's on the housetop or he who's in the field not return for his stuff".

So God gives instructions to two different people. One person listens and obeys. The other is too busy with his life and his stuff to listen. One is taken and the other left.

 

[Eugene]

Hi Eugene,

Yes, though when I look at the context of those references to Noah and Lot, I still see support for the interpretation I expressed above.

Look at the things Jesus criticizes Lot and Noah's world over. Eating. Drinking. Buying and selling. Marrying and giving in marriage. Building. planting. All very ordinary, average, mundane activities and yet Jesus saw a problem with them.

I think he was criticizing our tendency to become so wrapped up in the ordinary, average activities of this world that we stop caring about what God wants. So when God says, "go" we say, "But God I just got married" or "But God, I just bought some stuff", much like he described in the parable of the great supper where all the invitees made excuses not to go.

This is why he said, "Let he who's on the housetop or he who's in the field not return for his stuff".

So God gives instructions to two different people. One person listens and obeys. The other is too busy with his life and his stuff to listen. One is taken and the other left.

That's fine, and I suppose this goes with your thinking of post-trib?

 

[john darling]

Yes, I believe these verses describe a situation during the tribulation, where people will need to be listening very carefully to God not only in order to survive, but also to be effective witnesses to the world around them during this time.

 

[Kathi]

Yes, I believe these verses describe a situation during the tribulation, where people will need to be listening very carefully to God not only in order to survive, but also to be effective witnesses to the world around them during this time.

Are you pre,mid or post trib?

 

[john darling]

Hi Kathi,
Post. I just made a long comment on your "the difference between rapture and 2nd coming" post in the "rapture" thread. I didn't realize you'd started your own separate thread with that same post or I would have made it there instead. I wonder if I should copy it over.

 

[Kathi]

Hi Kathi,
Post. I just made a long comment on your "the difference between rapture and 2nd coming" post in the "rapture" thread. I didn't realize you'd started your own separate thread with that same post or I would have made it there instead. I wonder if I should copy it over.

No worries.It is nice to have you with us on CF john

 

[n2thelight]

When satan gets kicked out of Heaven on to the earth,it's going to be the worst time in the history of mankind....This is the time when non-christians are really going to need to hear the true Word of God....

Although the rapture is a false doctrine,who's going to be here to teach them,ie,spread the Word....This is the time when they shall need us the most,yet you all(rapturist)wish to fly away...

 

[john darling]

When satan gets kicked out of Heaven on to the earth,it's going to be the worst time in the history of mankind....This is the time when non-christians are really going to need to hear the true Word of God....

Although the rapture is a false doctrine,who's going to be here to teach them,ie,spread the Word....This is the time when they shall need us the most,yet you all(rapturist)wish to fly away...

Hi n2thelight. Good observation. People will need strong leadership in those days and those of us who already have a good understanding of Jesus are the obvious choice for acting as a testimony to them. It sounds strange that God would remove his servants from the Earth at a time when the world needs them the most, especially when the basis for that removal is that God apparently wants to shield us from tribulation, contrary to every warning Jesus gave about how we will experience tribulation for speaking in his name.

I think at least part of the problem comes when people confuse tribulation and wrath. Servants experience tribulation just as part of the learning process of growing in maturity and wisdom whereas wrath is specifically designed for God's enemies.

However, I'm not sure if I agree with your assessment that the rapture is a false doctrine. I suspect what you mean is that the pre-trib rapture is a false doctrine? Because from what I understand, the "rapture" is meant to be just another way of describing the 2nd coming of Jesus, except using a word which more accurately describes what will surely be a powerfully emotional event for all those participating. The contention isn't really that people will feel rapture, but rather, when they will feel it.

 

[n2thelight]

Hi n2thelight. Good observation. People will need strong leadership in those days and those of us who already have a good understanding of Jesus are the obvious choice for acting as a testimony to them. It sounds strange that God would remove his servants from the Earth at a time when the world needs them the most, especially when the basis for that removal is that God apparently wants to shield us from tribulation, contrary to every warning Jesus gave about how we will experience tribulation for speaking in his name.

I think at least part of the problem comes when people confuse tribulation and wrath. Servants experience tribulation just as part of the learning process of growing in maturity and wisdom whereas wrath is specifically designed for God's enemies.

However, I'm not sure if I agree with your assessment that the rapture is a false doctrine. I suspect what you mean is that the pre-trib rapture is a false doctrine? Because from what I understand, the "rapture" is meant to be just another way of describing the 2nd coming of Jesus, except using a word which more accurately describes what will surely be a powerfully emotional event for all those participating. The contention isn't really that people will feel rapture, but rather, when they will feel it.

I don't believe in the rapture at all,Pre,Mid or Post.........Christ comes here,we don't go anywhere....

The fundamental error in all the above 'Rapture' scenarios is that they all, in one fashion or another, believe that at some point in time only a portion of the people will be removed. First of all, they misunderstand the Bible when it says that "all will be changed" to read "will be Raptured' The change is a change of body, it is us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. and this happens to ALL people on the earth at Christ's coming AT THE SAME TIME! It is the consummation of the age, which is the beginning of the Millennium.

The below Scripture speaks of us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. Those who are asleep (dead) have already changed into their spiritual body at the moment of their individual deaths. Their flesh corpse is the only thing in the grave. But those who shall still be living when Christ returns must also go into their spiritual bodies, but the are changed without actually dying a flesh death, they just discard these flesh 'Tabernacles' and the spiritual man emerges. For the in the Millennium we are no longer in our flesh bodies, but rather, we are in our spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)

 

[n2thelight]

Eph 6:10-1810 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

The devil is satan. Satan's end-time role is that of the antichrist. Paul is giving us God's warning that we will face the antichrist (devil, satan) in these end-times. God supplies armor for His Election in the final days, we are to put it on, the WHOLE armor of God, all of it. Why would God's Elect need armor if He was going to extract them (Rapture) before the battle with the adversary begins?

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Once again, we see that those with the Gospel armor of God will be on the earth on that "evil day" when satan as the antichrist comes to earth. Those with the armor (God's Election) are told to "stand." Stand against what if they were to be Raptured out before the Great Tribulation of the antichrist on earth claiming to be the Messiah?

God's Elect shall be on the earth during the Great Tribulation! What did Jesus mean when He said: "Behold, I have told you before"? He was telling us about the false messiah, the spurious messiah, the antichrist whom is satan that shall come to this earth claiming to be the true Messiah. it is written that this antichrist (beast) shall be endowed with supernatural powers to deceive.

Rev 13:12-15
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. (KJV)

Eph 6:10-18 (Continued)14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints (KJV)

How do one suppose that God would ready His Elect for battle, spiritual battle, and then retreat them before the battle begins? Answer: He wouldn't, our Lord God is not one to act idly in vain! God prepares one for battle to DO battle (spiritual battle). Don't let satan and his false Rapture doctrines disarm you. Remember, the Lord said "stand against the wiles of the devil."{Eph 6:11}. He did not say to wait idly expecting to be pulled out (Raptured) before the battle even begins!

From the edited for content:Wiles:Greek word #3180 methodeia (meth-od-i'-ah); [method] travelling over, i.e. travesty (trickery): lie in wait. Cunning arts, deceit, craft, trickery."Now the serpent was more subtil..." {Gen 3:1}.

 

[john darling]

Hi n2thenight. Thanks for your response.

I don't believe in the rapture at all,Pre,Mid or Post.........Christ comes here,we don't go anywhere....

I think it's a bit of both. I'm very sure you're already are familiar with these verses but I'll post them anyway for reference.

1THESS 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1THESS 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

MT 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

MT 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The mention of trumpets in these two verses correspond to the same trumpet in the 1st Cor 15 verse you posted. But these two verses talk about being "caught up in the air" and being "gathered together".

The revelation talks about New Jerusalem "come down out of Heaven" at the return of Jesus. Rev 19 describes the marriage supper of the lamb with all the saints celebrating with Jesus and then preparing to ride out with him for the last vial of God's wrath (the battle of Armageddon).

My understanding, when putting all this information together, is that at the return of Jesus, New Jerusalem floats down out of Heaven, with Jesus there "catching up" his followers in their newly acquired bodies for the marriage supper of the lamb while the wrath is being poured out on a disobedient world below, after which Jesus and the saints return to Earth for the battle of Armageddon and then reign with him over the nations for a further 1000 years.

 

[Willie T]

I've always wondered...... after the resurrection, there is no more death, right? So in this battle, obviously, there isn't the slightest chance of a Christian being killed, or even wounded. So, where is the "battle"? It just sounds like a slaughter fest, the way you guys tell it. And how do we get the sword in Jesus mouth, being a weapon, when it is the "word of God" any other place it is mentioned.

 

[john darling]

Hi Willie. Good questions.

I've always wondered...... after the resurrection, there is no more death, right? So in this battle, obviously, there isn't the slightest chance of a Christian being killed, or even wounded.

Yeah, the saints will be protected. No more death for them, but for the mortals still left back on disobedient Earth? They can still die. Not every person on Earth will be gathered together and destroyed at the battle, though. There will still be survivors around the world despite all the various disasters. It is these survivors which the saints will be responsible for ruling over during the 1000 year reign.

So, where is the "battle"? It just sounds like a slaughter fest, the way you guys tell it.

It will be a slaughter. All the armies of the Earth gather together to fight against this "starship" floating in the sky. They will probably see it as some kind of alien invasion and will be all the more angry at all the plagues which have just taken place. They'll be hoppin mad to defend the Earth a'la independence day, but they will be crushed utterly.

Rev 19:17-19 describes the battle.

And how do we get the sword in Jesus mouth, being a weapon, when it is the "word of God" any other place it is mentioned.

Good question. It's not clear that the saints will even be fighting physically but somehow, someway, the armies will be destroyed. God isn't afraid of using violence, so long as he is the one in charge of it. The Rev describes the armies of Heaven following out with Jesus. I believe this will include the saints, but probably also hosts of angels who will probably be the ones doing the actual fighting, but it's anyone's guess as to how the armies are literally destroyed.

 

[n2thelight]

Hi n2thenight. Thanks for your response.



I think it's a bit of both. I'm very sure you're already are familiar with these verses but I'll post them anyway for reference.





The mention of trumpets in these two verses correspond to the same trumpet in the 1st Cor 15 verse you posted. But these two verses talk about being "caught up in the air" and being "gathered together".

The revelation talks about New Jerusalem "come down out of Heaven" at the return of Jesus. Rev 19 describes the marriage supper of the lamb with all the saints celebrating with Jesus and then preparing to ride out with him for the last vial of God's wrath (the battle of Armageddon).

My understanding, when putting all this information together, is that at the return of Jesus, New Jerusalem floats down out of Heaven, with Jesus there "catching up" his followers in their newly acquired bodies for the marriage supper of the lamb while the wrath is being poured out on a disobedient world below, after which Jesus and the saints return to Earth for the battle of Armageddon and then reign with him over the nations for a further 1000 years.

Thanks for your kind responses,love that more than anything,although we may disagree anyway here's how I see it

The only way one gets to Heaven at this point in time is if they die as these are those Christ brings back with Him,ie 2nd coming

Now about the meeting in the air...

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The subject here is those that are asleep(died)

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

Also New Jerusalem does not come down until after the 1000 years....

 

[john darling]

The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies".

Hi n2thenight,

I agree that sometimes words can have more than one meaning, like Paul using the word "clouds" to reference a large number of witnesses. However, what I see are three different words all indicating the same basic concept. There is "Clouds", "up", and "air". Although the words "clouds" and "air" can have alternative meanings they also can still have the original meaning as well, so anytime someone uses the word clouds or air, there is a chance they actually mean clouds or air. It's not always double meanings or code.

If the circumstances were using only one of those three words I could be inclined to believe the possibility of the word being used with an alternative meaning, but all three being used together in the same context? Not only that, but the Matthew 24 reference which describes the same events and also uses the word "clouds" also talks about this happening "in Heaven". I don't think this is a reference to some godly alternate dimension where God lives, but rather way up in the air, much like Paul describes.

Further, Paul's mention of "cloud" referring to witnesses is singular, whereas both the Matthew 24 and 1 Cor 15 ref are plural. I'm not familiar enough with Hebrew/Greek to know how much difference that makes in the original language, but I'm fairly sure the guys who translated the various versions did, and they used a plural form. I don't think they would have done that if they believed the original language was suggesting a multitude of witnesses, as the Paul verse clearly is. They probably would have said something like, "coming in the cloud of Heaven" or "caught up together in the cloud".

But, as I suggested earlier, I don't think the interpretation I am suggesting is all that contrary to what you suggested. In other words, I also am not suggesting that we leave the Earth. We raise up off the ground, sure, for a temporary part up in the sky in New Jerusalem, but we don't leave the Earth. We'll still be around at least for another 1000 years.

 

[n2thelight]

Hi n2thenight,

I agree that sometimes words can have more than one meaning, like Paul using the word "clouds" to reference a large number of witnesses. However, what I see are three different words all indicating the same basic concept. There is "Clouds", "up", and "air". Although the words "clouds" and "air" can have alternative meanings they also can still have the original meaning as well, so anytime someone uses the word clouds or air, there is a chance they actually mean clouds or air. It's not always double meanings or code.

If the circumstances were using only one of those three words I could be inclined to believe the possibility of the word being used with an alternative meaning, but all three being used together in the same context? Not only that, but the Matthew 24 reference which describes the same events and also uses the word "clouds" also talks about this happening "in Heaven". I don't think this is a reference to some godly alternate dimension where God lives, but rather way up in the air, much like Paul describes.

Further, Paul's mention of "cloud" referring to witnesses is singular, whereas both the Matthew 24 and 1 Cor 15 ref are plural. I'm not familiar enough with Hebrew/Greek to know how much difference that makes in the original language, but I'm fairly sure the guys who translated the various versions did, and they used a plural form. I don't think they would have done that if they believed the original language was suggesting a multitude of witnesses, as the Paul verse clearly is. They probably would have said something like, "coming in the cloud of Heaven" or "caught up together in the cloud".

But, as I suggested earlier, I don't think the interpretation I am suggesting is all that contrary to what you suggested. In other words, I also am not suggesting that we leave the Earth. We raise up off the ground, sure, for a temporary part up in the sky in New Jerusalem, but we don't leave the Earth. We'll still be around at least for another 1000 years.

I understand what you are saying......My main point is that Christ comes here,we don't go anywhere,we are simply chaned from flesh to spirit.......The only way to get to Heaven I feel is if one dies before Christ returns,and then we come back with Him....

I also feel the earth shall forever be our home......

 

[john darling]

Hey n2thenight. It depends on what you mean by "we don't go anywhere". Earlier you said you think we don't leave the Earth on the basis that the "up in the clouds and air" verses have been misunderstood and don't really mean "up" at all.

I suggested a compromise where we do go up in our newly changed bodies to meet Christ in the air, but that we don't leave the Earth, either. We go up to meet him for the marriage supper of the lamb in the new Jerusalem (come down out of Heaven) while the vials of wrath are being poured out on the world below.

Rev 19 tells the story of the marriage supper of the lamb from a Heavenly perspective.

As for never leaving the Earth? Who knows. A lot can happen in a 1000 years.