WHY IS THERE EVIL IN THE WORLD?

[Dorothy Mae]

If they thought that God's Love & Care for them was all in all for their good they would not have disobeyed His specific instruction to them.

I gather you don’t have children. Or let me put it this way, did you disobey your patents because you didn’t feel loved? It was all their fault?

They choose instead to believe the lie about God .

The Devil didn’t say God didn’t love them. He says he wasn’t telling the truth. That lie is STILL being said. Incredible as it sounds, there is theistic evolution series that addresses the discrepancy between Genesis and evolution by saying God lied, but I diverge.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay I got where you are going now.
My understanding is that there is not anything wrong with the fruit .
The wrong came in believing that the Love God had bestowed upon was faulty and insufficient .
In believing that God's expression of Love to them for their good was half hearted, towards their ultimate good .
In essence they were calling out God as a liar.
The evil was all theirs .
In addition to your speculation about the nature of the tree itself we are told by that as we speak the way to the tree in the east of the garden is being protected " TO KEEP THE WAY " that those who fully believe God may enter back in .

Gen 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Your comment that we are to KEEP THE WAY so as to be able to enter back into the Garden is very interesting.
I've never thought of that...be it biblical or not in the way of what scripture meant to say, it is a good revelation.

The wrong might have come in by believing that God's love was not sufficient.
It might have entered by the beautiful fruit Eve beheld with her eyes and then completed the thought by taking it.

But the story of the Garden is not going to get us anywhere.
Because whatever caused Eve, and then Adam -which might have been a totally different reason- to eat the fruit was in foundation caused by an evil thought.

Weren't Adam and Eve free of evil thoughts?
Where did those evil thoughts originate?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your comment that we are to KEEP THE WAY so as to be able to enter back into the Garden is very interesting.
I've never thought of that...be it biblical or not in the way of what scripture meant to say, it is a good revelation.

The wrong might have come in by believing that God's love was not sufficient.

That is not the reason the scripture gave but sounds more like the enemy's thought. "God doesn't love you enough" is something he would say.

It might have entered by the beautiful fruit Eve beheld with her eyes and then completed the thought by taking it.

If we wander away from scripture than all manner of deception is possible.

But the story of the Garden is not going to get us anywhere.
Because whatever caused Eve, and then Adam -which might have been a totally different reason- to eat the fruit was in foundation caused by an evil thought.

Weren't Adam and Eve free of evil thoughts?
Where did those evil thoughts originate?

Why don't you ask where all thoughts originate? Why is it only evil thoughts? What about other thoughts? Where do all thoughts originate? (The answer is we think them our of free will.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Everything He created was essentially from, or still is actually, energy. That is, everything He created is material. He did not create morals or lack thereof. He did not create darkness although He separated that from light.

You see that love, courage, kindness, etc come from who God is. I asked that question to get you to see that there are powerful realities that have no material substance (they are no made of energy) that were not created. God did not make those.

Now vices (old word for evil or wrong) were not created either. They are the choice to refuse to do the virtues God chooses to do. To try to pin down where they came from is like to pin down where the love you have for your dearest cane from. It came from you because of who you are, the kind of woman you are. We understand how thoughts or love or courage comes from us at points in time and THAT is the explanation because we have inside knowledge of that process that produced observable outcomes.

You are a person with power to create good, for example, by choosing good. This makes sense in real life and in the Bible. But even generally evil people have done good at times by their choices. How can one explain this except free will? What is more, We know why we, followers of Jesus, occasionally do wrong. Free will is the answer. It’s not a substance.

Now it occurs to me that if a person has a theology whereby all human actions is orchestrated by God, then they won’t be able to understand where evil comes from. If a person equally thinks we have a material substance born in us called “sin nature” (no where in the Bible) then they also won’t understand where evil comes from. They have to ask where that “sin nature” from Adam resulting from obeying an evil entity came from as though no free will choice was involved and evil was never possible. The question itself assumes evil wasn’t ever possible until something happened and you want to know that something.

The assumption is in error and precludes understanding. If one has untrue assumptions, one cannot understand further conundrums based on something untrue in the first place. There are a few theologies that assume facts not in evidence which lead the adherent into intellectual corners from which is no answer. The best choice is to love truth, choose truth, and abandon cherished views that are not true. This is loving God with the mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

Everything He created was essentially from, or still is actually, energy. That is, everything He created is material. He did not create morals or lack thereof. He did not create darkness although He separated that from light.

God created everything...
all things seen and unseen.

He created all the material things we can see.
This goes directly to Genesis, as you've been posting.

You see that love, courage, kindness, etc come from who God is. I asked that question to get you to see that there are powerful realities that have no material substance (they are no made of energy) that were not created. God did not make those.

Now vices (old word for evil or wrong) were not created either. They are the choice to refuse to do the virtues God chooses to do. To try to pin down where they came from is like to pin down where the love you have for your dearest cane from. It came from you because of who you are, the kind of woman you are. We understand how thoughts or love or courage comes from us at points in time and THAT is the explanation because we have inside knowledge of that process that produced observable outcomes.

Ok. I know what you mean.
But as there is good in the universe, so is there evil.
Evil does not pertain only to we humans.
Nature is infested with evil.
We might cause harm to others, but we cannot cause a hurricane to happen, and yet that is biblical evil.

You are a person with power to create good, for example, by choosing good. This makes sense in real life and in the Bible. But even generally evil people have done good at times by their choices. How can one explain this except free will? What is more, We know why we, followers of Jesus, occasionally do wrong. Free will is the answer. It’s not a substance.

Agreed.
But these things that are not of substance are exactly what is causing harm.
Where did these "things" that are not of substance originate?
How much longer until you realize we cannot not know...

Now it occurs to me that if a person has a theology whereby all human actions is orchestrated by God, then they won’t be able to understand where evil comes from.

No!
It's the opposite.
Theology that teaches that all is predestinated by God, teaches that it is God that has created evil.
They believe they DO understand where evil comes from --- God.

If a person equally thinks we have a material substance born in us called “sin nature” (no where in the Bible) then they also won’t understand where evil comes from. They have to ask where that “sin nature” from Adam resulting from obeying an evil entity came from as though no free will choice was involved and evil was never possible. The question itself assumes evil wasn’t ever possible until something happened and you want to know that something.

We are born with a sin nature, some call it concupiscence.
It's biblical - do we need another thread?
lol

The assumption is in error and precludes understanding. If one has untrue assumptions, one cannot understand further conundrums based on something untrue in the first place. There are a few theologies that assume facts not in evidence which lead the adherent into intellectual corners from which is no answer. The best choice is to love truth, choose truth, and abandon cherished views that are not true. This is loving God with the mind.

§Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is not the reason the scripture gave but sounds more like the enemy's thought. "God doesn't love you enough" is something he would say.

If we wander away from scripture than all manner of deception is possible.

Why don't you ask where all thoughts originate? Why is it only evil thoughts? What about other thoughts? Where do all thoughts originate? (The answer is we think them our of free will.)

All good originates with God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If they thought that God's Love & Care for them was all in all for their good they would not have disobeyed His specific instruction to them.
They choose instead to believe the lie about God .

Oh yes they would. They had no doubt that God's love and care for them was all in all for their good and nevertheless they disobeyed! How do we know? Because their excuse was NOT that God's Love and Care for them was not all in all (whatever that means) for their good. That was NOT the excuse they gave. They did not blame God or except maybe Adam who blamed God for Eve whom God gave to him. That was close to blaming God. So it would have occurred to them if it were in their hearts. They were not innocent and we cannot justly accuse God of a lack of loving them.

What is more, I am going to defend the character of God against this charge of lack of love and care, they talked to God face to face in the cool of the evening each day, something WE DO NOT KNOW. Now God is absolute loving and caring and does good for his own on a level that is far and away above the more loving parent. They knew God intimately, had no trouble knowing God's voice to them, and tasted of his love for them beyond what most of us know. So there was no lack of love or caring for Adam and Eve.

Now this is important. The role of the Accuser of the members of the Kingdom of God is Satan. I would think twice about participating in accusing God of evil. You do not know whose side you are taking.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God created everything...
all things seen and unseen.

Only matter was created from energy. He did not create the concepts of love or truth or generosity or such. They always were. They were never created.

He created all the material things we can see.
This goes directly to Genesis, as you've been posting.

Correct.

Ok. I know what you mean.
But as there is good in the universe, so is there evil.

There was always good and the possibility of evil was there but not yet realized until a certain point. I get the feeling you want an OUTSIDE OF THE MIND reason for evil. That is, something outside of Satan made him sin. What about he just decided to do so?

Evil does not pertain only to we humans.
Nature is infested with evil.
We might cause harm to others, but we cannot cause a hurricane to happen, and yet that is biblical evil.

The word "evil" means morally bad as well as unfortunate. We might say, "man, did I have a bad day" and we do not necessarily mean that moral evil happened to us. If a tree fell on your car and you caught a cold and the computer failed and you lost hours of work, that is all bad but none of it morally bad. The Bible uses "evil" in the same way.

Agreed.
But these things that are not of substance are exactly what is causing harm.
Where did these "things" that are not of substance originate?
How much longer until you realize we cannot not know...

How much longer will you realize that we can know? They come from free will choices. You want there to be a material like creation of evil and it is a matter that was neither created nor will be destroyed. This reminds of asking "when was energy created" which every scientist knows it is neither created nor destroyed so the question assumes facts just not in evidence. We do not choose evil because someone somewhere way back when created the concept of evil. We do not choose love because someone somewhere way back when created love.

No!
It's the opposite.
Theology that teaches that all is predestinated by God, teaches that it is God that has created evil.
They believe they DO understand where evil comes from --- God.

Well, they do not understand it, but just accept it all the while believing God is good. They commit intellectual suicide. That is, they believe God does good and evil and are completely content because they shut down their minds. I have talked to them, many of them, and either they embrace nonsense at best (evil at worse) or they accept that God does moral evil and so they can engage in the same which is logical although horrible. Thus we see the outworking of this in the choices Calvin himself made.

We are born with a sin nature, some call it concupiscence.

No, concupiscence is a "Concupiscence (from Late Latin noun concupiscentia, from the Latin verb concupiscence, from con-, "with", here an intensifier, + cupi(d)-, "desiring" + -escere, a verb-forming suffix denoting beginning of a process or state) is an ardent, usually sensual, longing." It is basically sexual. Has nothing to do with nature.

You will find that the "sin nature" doctrine originated with Augustine and is no where in the Bible. Children are not born sinful according to the Bible. He who sins is sinful.

It's biblical - do we need another thread?

§Agreed.

Ah, you make me smile. No, I will drop it but it does likely tend to lead one to ask the question you ask. But it is only a stray thought of mine. Best ignore and move on.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

All good originates with God.

So do you think all good thoughts come from God? If so, why are there other thoughts in the minds of men?

 

[Consecrated Life]

If they thought that God's Love & Care for them was all in all for their good they would not have disobeyed His specific instruction to them.
They choose instead to believe the lie about God .

I gather you don’t have children. Or let me put it this way, did you disobey your patents because you didn’t feel loved? It was all their fault?

Our children were not created sinless.
Our children, you & I, are not sinners because we commit sin, we commit sin because we are sinners .
Adam & Eve were created sinless.
From the moment they were created without sin & they were never sinners , until the moment they sinned .
We cannot say that about ourselves.
That you do not understand the difference between Adam an Eve and us in terms of our sin nature does make clear to me how you also fail to understand the inheritance of our sin nature.
The two concepts being very much interrelated.

 

[Consecrated Life]

But the story of the Garden is not going to get us anywhere.
Because whatever caused Eve, and then Adam -which might have been a totally different reason- to eat the fruit was in foundation caused by an evil thought.

Weren't Adam and Eve free of evil thoughts?
Where did those evil thoughts originate?

The evil thoughts originated with them because God created them with the capability to make choices .
I believe God could have created beings who had no ability to choose evil if He has wished to do so .
Do believe that ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Our children were not created sinless.
Our children, you & I, are not sinners because we commit sin, we commit sin because we are sinners .
Adam & Eve were created sinless.
From the moment they were created without sin & they were never sinners , until the moment they sinned .
We cannot say that about ourselves.
That you do not understand the difference between Adam an Eve and us in terms of our sin nature does make clear to me how you also fail to understand the inheritance of our sin nature.
The two concepts being very much interrelated.

you & I, are not sinners because we commit sin, we commit sin because we are sinners .

 

[GodsGrace]

The evil thoughts originated with them because God created them with the capability to make choices .
I believe God could have created beings who had no ability to choose evil if He has wished to do so .
Do believe that ?

Yes, I believe God could have done whatever He wanted right from the beginning.
You see CL, we can't go back far enough to get a real answer.
My point is that there is no answer.
If the evil thought originated with them,,,HOW did they get such a thought since they had not eaten the fruit yet?

It's like when someone's loved one dies, or gets sick, and they ask why this happened.
We don't really know why.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Our children were not created sinless.
Our children, you & I, are not sinners because we commit sin, we commit sin because we are sinners .

No, he who sins is a sinner, same as he who steals is a thief. No one is born a thief.

Adam & Eve were created sinless.
From the moment they were created without sin & they were never sinners , until the moment they sinned .

Yes, he who sins is a sinner.

We cannot say that about ourselves.

Why not?

That you do not understand the difference between Adam an Eve and us in terms of our sin nature does make clear to me how you also fail to understand the inheritance of our sin nature.

I understand it better than you do. I know it’s origin as well as it’s arguments. I even know WHY they were offered the forbidden fruit. I know the scripture quite well. Makes perfect sense.

The two concepts being very much interrelated.

Well they gave into temptation but the Enemy didn’t have a place in them already weakened to this Enemy of man and God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, I believe God could have done whatever He wanted right from the beginning.
You see CL, we can't go back far enough to get a real answer.
My point is that there is no answer.
If the evil thought originated with them,,,HOW did they get such a thought since they had not eaten the fruit yet?

It's like when someone's loved one dies, or gets sick, and they ask why this happened.
We don't really know why.

If one doesn’t want to know why, then they won’t. “With all they you get, get understanding” says the scripture. But one must abandon the comfort of “we cannot know.”

 

[GodsGrace]

If one doesn’t want to know why, then they won’t. “With all they you get, get understanding” says the scripture. But one must abandon the comfort of “we cannot know.”

Then Dorothy, you're going to have to tell us the origin of evil.
Which no one here has done yet.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, he who sins is a sinner, same as he who steals is a thief. No one is born a thief.

Yes, he who sins is a sinner.

Why not?

I understand it better than you do. I know it’s origin as well as it’s arguments. I even know WHY they were offered the forbidden fruit. I know the scripture quite well. Makes perfect sense.

Well they gave into temptation but the Enemy didn’t have a place in them already weakened to this Enemy of man and God.

Consecrated Life is right.
We're not a thief because we steal...
We steal because we're a thief.

We're born a thief Dorothy.
This is why we steal, because we're a thief.
The sin nature is in us at birth. We all have it.
Except for Jesus and Mary. Possibly John the baptist, not sure.

Why were Adam and Eve offered the fruit?
(maybe we'll get into the ransom theory of atonement).

 

[hawkman]

Yes, I believe God could have done whatever He wanted right from the beginning.
You see CL, we can't go back far enough to get a real answer.
My point is that there is no answer.
If the evil thought originated with them,,,HOW did they get such a thought since they had not eaten the fruit yet?

It's like when someone's loved one dies, or gets sick, and they ask why this happened.
We don't really know why.

Would evil have entered the world without listening to and acting on the words of Satan ?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

wondering, I’ve tried to communicate the understanding of morals, evil, good, etc. I really do understand this. If you want a material creation of evil outside of decisions of living beings, no man can help you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Would evil have entered the world without listening to and acting on the words of Satan ?

No. If they had refused temptation same as Jesus did, evil would not have gained authority.