WHY IS THERE EVIL IN THE WORLD?

[hawkman]

The sin nature is in us at birth. We all have it.

I would say this instead .

The freewill is in us at birth . We all have it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Consecrated Life is right.
We're not a thief because we steal...
We steal because we're a thief.

We're born a thief Dorothy.
This is why we steal, because we're a thief.
The sin nature is in us at birth. We all have it.
Except for Jesus and Mary. Possibly John the baptist, not sure.

Why were Adam and Eve offered the fruit?
(maybe we'll get into the ransom theory of atonement).

With these assumptions, you will never arrive at understanding.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Then Dorothy, you're going to have to tell us the origin of evil.
Which no one here has done yet.

You refuse the explanation because because the foundational understanding doesn’t fit into your preconceived theology. There will never be understanding when one assumes that which is untrue. If a person insisted 4+6 = 11 and asked another to explain how 4+5= 9, no one could without correcting the wrong assumption in the first place. Jesus faced this many times. Understanding turns upon a person’s willingness to receive a love of the truth or not. It often requires abandoning a cherish but false position which, I admit, is painful to do.

 

[GodsGrace]

I would say this instead .

The freewill is in us at birth . We all have it.

Don't you think we're born with a sinful nature?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering, I’ve tried to communicate the understanding of morals, evil, good, etc. I really do understand this. If you want a material creation of evil outside of decisions of living beings, no man can help you.

Nor can man help anyone else since the answer is not forthcoming.

 

[hawkman]

Don't you think we're born with a sinful nature?

No .

 

[GodsGrace]

You refuse the explanation because because the foundational understanding doesn’t fit into your preconceived theology. There will never be understanding when one assumes that which is untrue. If a person insisted 4+6 = 11 and asked another to explain how 4+5= 9, no one could without correcting the wrong assumption in the first place. Jesus faced this many times. Understanding turns upon a person’s willingness to receive a love of the truth or not. It often requires abandoning a cherish but false position which, I admit, is painful to do.

What is my foundational understanding which is not correct?
What is my false position?

I don't think I've stated any.

 

[GodsGrace]

No .

Interesting.

Let's start a thread....

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Nor can man help anyone else since the answer is not forthcoming.

I gave it to you. I understand it very well. I understand why Adam and Eve were tempted. But all of this will not fit into the theology you have selected to believe. But make no mistake, that you do not understand does not mean I do not understand.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Our children were not created sinless.
Our children, you & I, are not sinners because we commit sin, we commit sin because we are sinners .

No, he who sins is a sinner, same as he who steals is a thief. No one is born a thief.

So you believe you were born with the same sinless nature Adam & Eve were created with ?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No .

You do realize that these are FIGHTIN words, don't you? Christians down through the centuries since Augustine have taken comfort that sin is not their fault. I thought of a parable.

Two men went into their prayer closet to pray. One of them said to God, "Father, please forgive my sin nature that I was born with and cannot help. I thank you that Jesus saw our plight, that we cannot help choosing sin and died to free me from this sin nature although I am still sinning, which as you know is not my fault."

The other prayed, "Father, please forgive me for my sins that I chose our of the wrong desire in my heart. No one but me is at fault and I accept full responsibility. Have mercy on me, Father and please forgive me."

I wonder which one God thought was humbling himself before Him?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you believe you were born with the same sinless nature Adam & Eve were created with ?

What if we just take the Biblical position and say we were born without the knowledge of moral right and wrong? As babies, we did not know the difference between good and evil. Seems reasonable if we look at babies.

Of course, what you are trying to do is make us sound like we are proud and think well of us whereas we actually think the sin we do is our fault, unlike your position. For you, the thief was born a thief and it is not his fault if he steals. Pride remains full intact. For us, our sin is our fault. Pride is humbled to admit we have no excuse.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What is my foundational understanding which is not correct?
What is my false position?

I don't think I've stated any.

You think God created moral good and since he did in your view, you ask where evil came from since God created good (and other morals) and so it is a mystery who created evil. Morals in your view, were created. They did not exist before God created them.

Second, you think we are born with a sin nature. That is, sin is a material manner located within us and inherited with other inherited elements. Again, sin is a material matter.

Third, sin does not come from decisions we make in your view, but is something else outside the person choosing sin. So you want to know where this outside influence came from so that Satan, for example, sinned. In your view he did not choose sin, but something else outside of his choosing happened. Essentially it was not his fault as evil was something else disconnected from his choice and outside of his mind.

Please feel free to correct any of this but that is the impression I get. You do not say all of the above but it can be inferred since evil is not a result of choices we make but outside our choices.

 

[GodsGrace]

No .

See the following thread...

WHY DO WE SIN?

Pretty basic question. Jesus told a couple of persons to go and sin no more. Why do we sin? What is it within us that makes us obey the evil one? Is it the sin nature? Are we born with it? I believe we are. I believe this is what makes us sin, even after being born again.

christianforums.net

 

[GodsGrace]

I gave it to you. I understand it very well. I understand why Adam and Eve were tempted. But all of this will not fit into the theology you have selected to believe. But make no mistake, that you do not understand does not mean I do not understand.

Why were Adam and Eve tempted?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Why were Adam and Eve tempted?

They wanted to be like God, well, she did. He just went along. Or are you asking why in the first place?

"If it necessary that temptations come." Jesus

 

[GodsGrace]

You think God created moral good and since he did in your view, you ask where evil came from since God created good (and other morals) and so it is a mystery who created evil. Morals in your view, were created. They did not exist before God created them.

Morals always existed but in God.
There's no such thing as morals for humans unless there are humans.

I agree with your first sentence. :nod

It is certainly a mystery to me as to where evil originated.
There was a thread like this on a different forum, years ago, it went on forever.
This one won't because it gets silly...
But it is an interesting topic.

Second, you think we are born with a sin nature. That is, sin is a material manner located within us and inherited with other inherited elements. Again, sin is a material matter.

Posting verses won't change your mind, will it?
I'm sure you're very familiar with the NT and I don't know why you don't believe we're born sinful.
BTW, children are not good to begin with.
They must be taught how to be civil to other humans.
They must be taught how to get along in society.

Third, sin does not come from decisions we make in your view, but is something else outside the person choosing sin. So you want to know where this outside influence came from so that Satan, for example, sinned. In your view he did not choose sin, but something else outside of his choosing happened. Essentially it was not his fault as evil was something else disconnected from his choice and outside of his mind.

This is not correct.
Sin does come from decisions we make.
But I'm not talking about SIN.
I'm talking about EVIL.

Are they the same to you?
IOW, evil is what makes us sin.

Please feel free to correct any of this but that is the impression I get. You do not say all of the above but it can be inferred since evil is not a result of choices we make but outside our choices.

Yes. Some evil comes because of our choices.
Hurricanes do not happen because of our choice.
Hurricanes are evil.

 

[GodsGrace]

They wanted to be like God, well, she did. He just went along. Or are you asking why in the first place?

"If it necessary that temptations come." Jesus

Wanting to be like God is pride.
Pride is a sin.
Sin is evil.

But they hadn't eaten of the fruit yet...
They did not have the knowledge of evil...
So? Why did Eve eat the fruit if evil was not in the Garden yet?

 

[Consecrated Life]

So you believe you were born with the same sinless nature Adam & Eve were created with ?

What if we just take the Biblical position and say we were born without the knowledge of moral right and wrong? As babies, we did not know the difference between good and evil. Seems reasonable if we look at babies.

You believe that a small child, just beginning to speak needs to be taught to form a lie and say "NO" they did not sneak into the pantry when nobody was looking and steal a cookie?
Really ?

I take it you have never had children .
No small child needs to be taught to become angry that another child has picked up a toy of theirs and snatch it away violently from the offending child.
You could not be more wrong.
Children do not need to be taught to be morally wrong, that comes by nature, the checks in the mail on that .
What Children need to be taught is to be morally right .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Morals always existed but in God.
There's no such thing as morals for humans unless there are humans.

I agree with your first sentence. :nod

It is certainly a mystery to me as to where evil originated.
There was a thread like this on a different forum, years ago, it went on forever.
This one won't because it gets silly...
But it is an interesting topic.

Probably will end soon as we’ve reached the point where further exchange will be repetitive.

Posting verses won't change your mind, will it?

Of course you can. But do a search for the noun “sin nature” in your Bible first, please.

I'm sure you're very familiar with the NT and I don't know why you don't believe we're born sinful.

Because no one in the whole of the Bible did. I take their view.

BTW, children are not good to begin with.
They must be taught how to be civil to other humans.
They must be taught how to get along in society.

That’s only because you want to see them as such. Children do not have self control, true. And they imitate what they see in their parents which is likely the root of their choices. I know many many adults who don’t know how to be civil.

This is not correct.
Sin does come from decisions we make.

Find me a list of sins that are not decisions we make please. If I start to list them..theft, murder, unforgiveness, slander, they are all decisions we make.

But I'm not talking about SIN.
I'm talking about EVIL.

What’s the difference?

Are they the same to you?
IOW, evil is what makes us sin.

So you are not responsible for your sin but some thing called evil is?

Yes. Some evil comes because of our choices.
Hurricanes do not happen because of our choice.
Hurricanes are evil.

No they are not evil. They are a natural phenomena.