Why is USA in Iraq?

[Intoxicated by Life]

First of all, war kills people. Does it matter how many are killed with one bomb? Is this any different than using several "regular" bombs?

The nation of Japan bombed US first, the treated their POWs very badly and if we didn't use nukes, we would have invaded Japan. It has been said that more lives would've been lost in an invasion than was lost in both cities. (Sorry, I cannot remember where I read that.)

My father was in the South Pasific and would've been involved in an invasion. Maybe I'm selfish, but I glad that he didn't have to invade Japan.

Yes, it matters. Bombs to not distinguish between innocents and soldiers. Killing innocents is murder. Murder is inherently wrong. Thou shalt NOT kill. -and it doesn't matter who attacks first, it doesn't change the reality the killing civilians is murder. It's murder for them and it's murder for us. I fully believe that those soldiers who killed civilians, be it with bombs or bullets, will find the afterlife rather unpleasant...

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Is it Christian to kill to save American lives?? In the case of WWII, YES.

Qualify that please.

First of all, war kills people. Does it matter how many are killed with one bomb? Is this any different than using several "regular" bombs?

The nation of Japan bombed US first, the treated their POWs very badly and if we didn't use nukes, we would have invaded Japan. It has been said that more lives would've been lost in an invasion than was lost in both cities. (Sorry, I cannot remember where I read that.)

My father was in the South Pasific and would've been involved in an invasion. Maybe I'm selfish, but I glad that he didn't have to invade Japan.

Let us repay evil with evil.

 

[mcrees]

God wrote the 10 Comandments, He also instructed Joshua on how to take the city of Jericho. In Joshua 6:21 is says that the city was utterly destroyed, both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and ass with the edge of the sword. The only person saved was a harlot named Rahab. As far as I know, nobody in the town of Jericho did anything to the children of Israel, but all except for one was killed.

Did these soldiers commit murder, or did God contradict him self? No to both.

As far as repay evil for evil, maybe we should not have gone after those responsible for 9-11????

We are doing the right thing and I support our President.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

God wrote the 10 Comandments, He also instructed Joshua on how to take the city of Jericho. In Joshua 6:21 is says that the city was utterly destroyed, both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and ass with the edge of the sword. The only person saved was a harlot named Rahab. As far as I know, nobody in the town of Jericho did anything to the children of Israel, but all except for one was killed.

Did these soldiers commit murder, or did God contradict him self? No to both.

As far as repay evil for evil, maybe we should not have gone after those responsible for 9-11????

We are doing the right thing and I support our President.

Is America another Israel?

"You have heard it said... eye for an eye.... but I say to you"

Repaying evil for evil was the way of the Judaism and Law. It is not the way of Christianity. Or shall we stone women who commit adultery?

"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. "

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[mcrees]

Again I ask, should we not have done anything about 9-11?

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Again I ask, should we not have done anything about 9-11?

1. Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

2. Who is "we?" The Christian Church or the nation of USA?

 

[mcrees]

Is America another Israel?

"You have heard it said... eye for an eye.... but I say to you"

Repaying evil for evil was the way of the Judaism and Law. It is not the way of Christianity. Or shall we stone women who commit adultery?

"Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. "

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

You still have not answered my question. Should we, the United States of America, a Christian nation, have done anything about 9-11?

 

[mcrees]

Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

I think that they (Iraq) did have something to do with 9-11.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Iraq had nothing to do with 911.

I think that they (Iraq) did have something to do with 9-11.

The President has openly admitted otherwise.

 

[Fish-Cross]

Yes they did, they supplied the weapons for 9-11.

 

[Intoxicated by Life]

God wrote the 10 Comandments, He also instructed Joshua on how to take the city of Jericho.

Are you saying God came down and instructed Bush Jr. to attack Iraq? Wow, how did I miss hearing about that?... :roll:

 

[BereanDAD_2004]

Why Governments Exist

Again I ask, should we not have done anything about 9-11?

National governments exist to punish evil done against its people.

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer (Romans 13:1-4).

Our response to seek out Bin Laden, then, is correct from a biblical perspective.

On the other hand, it is not so clear to say that Iraq, evil as it is, should have been a part of our agenda. It seems a whole lot more like meddling to me, and inconsistent meddling at that. If Iraq then why not terroristic activity of the Russian Republic against Chechnya?

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/05/chechnya0515.htm

We turn a blind eye to what goes on there. Why? Because Chechnya doesn't have anything we want. Iraq does: a strategic location for a military presence in Europe. We're certainly not there because of weapons of mass destruction, which is the stated reason for why we went there.

BereanDAD

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Re: Why Governments Exist

Our response to seek out Bin Laden, then, is correct from a biblical perspective.

"Our" as in the church, or "our" as in a country?

What is "our" position as a church? Preach the gospel to benny or "flush him out and kill 'im?"

 

[BereanDAD2003]

Re: Why Governments Exist

[quote="BereanDAD_2004":385a8]
Our response to seek out Bin Laden, then, is correct from a biblical perspective.

"Our" as in the church, or "our" as in a country?

What is "our" position as a church? Preach the gospel to benny or "flush him out and kill 'im?"[/quote:385a8]

"Our" position as the church is to submit to the government who is God's minister relative to such matters of punishing evil. So says Paul to the Roman Christians submitted to the Roman government.

I suppose this could jump off into a discussion of whether or not a Christian can serve in the military/police force as a part of that "ministry" which is ordained by God. My problem is often that it is difficult to determine what is a just action on the macro level where I (most of us) are not given adequate information--or we are lied to outright, and that without any ability to be able to judge what is the truth--to be able to properly determine if we could be involved.

The Jehovah's Witness approach (I'm not a member of that denomination) is to just opt out of the military outright, believing that God forbids a Christian to be involved in war. I can see their argument, but there are other perspectives that I can see that mitigate against that choice. It's not my interest to delve to far into that matter of opinion, however. I know what I personally would do, but I wouldn't judge others' choices in the matter.

BereanDAD

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Re: Why Governments Exist

[quote="BereanDAD_2004":482c5]
Our response to seek out Bin Laden, then, is correct from a biblical perspective.

"Our" as in the church, or "our" as in a country?

What is "our" position as a church? Preach the gospel to benny or "flush him out and kill 'im?"

"Our" position as the church is to submit to the government who is God's minister relative to such matters of punishing evil. So says Paul to the Roman Christians submitted to the Roman government.

I suppose this could jump off into a discussion of whether or not a Christian can serve in the military/police force as a part of that "ministry" which is ordained by God. My problem is often that it is difficult to determine what is a just action on the macro level where I (most of us) are not given adequate information--or we are lied to outright, and that without any ability to be able to judge what is the truth--to be able to properly determine if we could be involved.

The Jehovah's Witness approach (I'm not a member of that denomination) is to just opt out of the military outright, believing that God forbids a Christian to be involved in war. I can see their argument, but there are other perspectives that I can see that mitigate against that choice. It's not my interest to delve to far into that matter of opinion, however. I know what I personally would do, but I wouldn't judge others' choices in the matter.

BereanDAD[/quote:482c5]

How about this position.

"We are the church. Let the world do what it does. We do what we do."

 

[BereanDAD2003]

Re: Why Governments Exist

[quote="Jesus My Wisdom":75a85][quote="BereanDAD_2004":75a85]
Our response to seek out Bin Laden, then, is correct from a biblical perspective.

"Our" as in the church, or "our" as in a country?

What is "our" position as a church? Preach the gospel to benny or "flush him out and kill 'im?"

"Our" position as the church is to submit to the government who is God's minister relative to such matters of punishing evil. So says Paul to the Roman Christians submitted to the Roman government.

I suppose this could jump off into a discussion of whether or not a Christian can serve in the military/police force as a part of that "ministry" which is ordained by God. My problem is often that it is difficult to determine what is a just action on the macro level where I (most of us) are not given adequate information--or we are lied to outright, and that without any ability to be able to judge what is the truth--to be able to properly determine if we could be involved.

The Jehovah's Witness approach (I'm not a member of that denomination) is to just opt out of the military outright, believing that God forbids a Christian to be involved in war. I can see their argument, but there are other perspectives that I can see that mitigate against that choice. It's not my interest to delve to far into that matter of opinion, however. I know what I personally would do, but I wouldn't judge others' choices in the matter.

BereanDAD[/quote:75a85]

How about this position.

"We are the church. Let the world do what it does. We do what we do."[/quote:75a85]

We live in the world and there are principles about taking care of what God has entrusted to us; there are principles about justice; and there are principles about propriety that transcend the overly simplistic statement that you made. "In the world not of the world, sure," but God has expectations of people, Christian or no, that necessitate what some, perhaps you, JMW, would deem unchristian or inappropriate for Christians.

At any rate, I won't be baited into this discussion--at least not at this time. There are more important things (to me) to spend my limited time haggling out. Perhaps someone else might want to challenge you.

BereanDAD

 

[mcrees]

Re: Why Governments Exist

[quote="Jesus My Wisdom":64935][quote="BereanDAD_2004":64935]
Our response to seek out Bin Laden, then, is correct from a biblical perspective.

"Our" as in the church, or "our" as in a country?

What is "our" position as a church? Preach the gospel to benny or "flush him out and kill 'im?"

"Our" position as the church is to submit to the government who is God's minister relative to such matters of punishing evil. So says Paul to the Roman Christians submitted to the Roman government.

I suppose this could jump off into a discussion of whether or not a Christian can serve in the military/police force as a part of that "ministry" which is ordained by God. My problem is often that it is difficult to determine what is a just action on the macro level where I (most of us) are not given adequate information--or we are lied to outright, and that without any ability to be able to judge what is the truth--to be able to properly determine if we could be involved.

The Jehovah's Witness approach (I'm not a member of that denomination) is to just opt out of the military outright, believing that God forbids a Christian to be involved in war. I can see their argument, but there are other perspectives that I can see that mitigate against that choice. It's not my interest to delve to far into that matter of opinion, however. I know what I personally would do, but I wouldn't judge others' choices in the matter.

BereanDAD[/quote:64935]

How about this position.

"We are the church. Let the world do what it does. We do what we do."[/quote:64935]

If we are to do what we do and the world is to do what it does, then what exactly do we do? Aren't we to bring the world to Christ? It is very hard to do that with all of the things the world is doing and we don't intervene.

Also JMW, should we, the USA and a Christian nation, not have done anything about 9-11?

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Re: Why Governments Exist

[quote="Jesus My Wisdom":a4896][quote="BereanDAD_2004":a4896]
Our response to seek out Bin Laden, then, is correct from a biblical perspective.

"Our" as in the church, or "our" as in a country?

What is "our" position as a church? Preach the gospel to benny or "flush him out and kill 'im?"

"Our" position as the church is to submit to the government who is God's minister relative to such matters of punishing evil. So says Paul to the Roman Christians submitted to the Roman government.

I suppose this could jump off into a discussion of whether or not a Christian can serve in the military/police force as a part of that "ministry" which is ordained by God. My problem is often that it is difficult to determine what is a just action on the macro level where I (most of us) are not given adequate information--or we are lied to outright, and that without any ability to be able to judge what is the truth--to be able to properly determine if we could be involved.

The Jehovah's Witness approach (I'm not a member of that denomination) is to just opt out of the military outright, believing that God forbids a Christian to be involved in war. I can see their argument, but there are other perspectives that I can see that mitigate against that choice. It's not my interest to delve to far into that matter of opinion, however. I know what I personally would do, but I wouldn't judge others' choices in the matter.

BereanDAD

How about this position.

"We are the church. Let the world do what it does. We do what we do."[/quote:a4896]

If we are to do what we do and the world is to do what it does, then what exactly do we do? Aren't we to bring the world to Christ? It is very hard to do that with all of the things the world is doing and we don't interveve.
[/quote:a4896]

We do our mission. Our struggle is not against flesh and blood. Although we walk in the flesh we do not war in the flesh for the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly but the power of God.

Also JMW, should we, the USA and a Christian nation, not have done anything about 9-11?

Therein lies the problem of western Christian thinking. A Christian must ask, "what shall the nation of God do?" The nation of God is not USA. It is the church. The answer to that question is certainly not, "attack Al Qaeda and the Taliban."

Now what should the nation of USA have done? Philosphically speaking, I say they did what they needed to do concerning Al Qaeda and bin laden.

Do you see the problem here? You are creating a dilemma for yourself by creating two Christian nations, the church, and USA. You are asking what "we" should do as a collective of American Christians. But that is not the same thing as aksing what should "we" do as a collective known as the Church, God's holy nation.

What makes you think USA is a "Christian nation." Do you think declaring it makes it so? Do you think God recognizes USA as a Christian "nation" simply because you declare it to be so? Or do you think God looks upon Christians everywhere as his Christian nation?

If you think about it carefully, you will realize you are keeping two identities, a Christian one, and a non-Christian one, which is another way of saying, "one foot in heaven, one foot in the world." No man can serve two masters. The world wants you to identify with it in your decision making. Don't do it. Identify with Christ.

Let the world do what it does. It is only leading to Armageddon anyway. Let the tares grow with the wheat. Let us now do what we do.

If you think about this carefully, you will then fully understand why Jesus taught that we would be dragged by the world into court and persecuted. It is inevitable if you follow Jesus.

JMW

 

[mcrees]

I never said that the USA is Gods nation. This country was founded on the belief in God and in his power. There are several Christian nations in the world, of which, we are one of them.

I have never heard that the Church is a nation. I do know that it is the bride of Christ.

We are to go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever Jesus commanded...

Some nations don't want us to do that and are trying to stop us. Maybe we should shake the dust off of our sandels and set back and proclaim that we can do nothing because shouldn't go to war.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

I never said that the USA is Gods nation. This country was founded on the belief in God and in his power.

And that means what? That God recognizes USA as a "Christian nation?"

There are several Christian nations in the world, of which, we are one of them.

I have never heard that the Church is a nation. I do know that it is the bride of Christ.

"You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people." (1 Peter 2:9).

Our leader is the Lord Jesus Christ. Our Sovereign is God.

You appear to be replacing this with:

Our leader is George Bush. Our Sovereign is God.

We are to go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever Jesus commanded...

Yes we are.

Some nations don't want us to do that and are trying to stop us. Maybe we should shake the dust off of our sandels and set back and proclaim that we can do nothing because shouldn't go to war.

And do you think the Catholic Crusades were a good thing? Do you think war was Jesus' answer to preaching the gospel?

So what do you think we should do in China as Christians? Disobey their government, break their laws, and proclaim the gospel there anyway?

What did Peter do when the authorities told him not to preach the gospel?

JMW