GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
But a bill of divorcement was in Moses' time.
Do you read the NT in Greek?
Doesn't PUT HER AWAY mean divorce?
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WHY ISN'T THIS GENERATION GETTING MARRIED?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
Do you read the NT in Greek?
Doesn't PUT HER AWAY mean divorce?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Uggghhhh.
Yeah, after hearing that a dog sounds like a good idea!
I wish.... Maybe some day. When I stop travelling....
Women are better at literally everything but being a man.
All the way through into New Testament times, which is what makes it relevant to Paul's teaching in 1st Corinthians. If Paul had wanted to communicate he was talking about divorce, he would have used ἀπολύω ("put her away") or ἀποστάσιον ("give her a bill of divorcement"), not χωρίζω, which while it can be translated "divorce" if the context fully warrants it, generally simply means "to separate" or "depart from," as in "After these things, Paul departed from Athens" (Acts 18:1).
Read it, no. If you put a Greek text in front of me without any interlinear, I'd only be able to make out so much. But lucky for me I'm surrounded by study aids, so I can look at original texts any time, night or day, and be able to know the parsing, and also enough Lexicons to study the vocabulary in-depth very quickly.
Dorothy Mae
Member
You know, Germany changed their divorce laws and each adult pays for themselves but the children’s support is mutual. A lawyer friend told me all of a sudden all the make clients wanted to change their divorce settlement.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Pretty funny. I can’t put in the laughing emo or I would have. Except in one case, I’ve enjoyed working for men better than women.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Yes. I don't know how anyone not studying this is supposed to know what your first paragraph states.
This is why some of the NT is really lost in translation.
I had an opportunity to study Greek with a theologian priest that reads the bible in Greek and taught it, but I just can't anymore. Got too lazy. : (
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I don't know if I agree with that either.
What if a husband leaves a wife that spent her time at home making a nice home for him and their children?
What happens to her?
When we leave the ways that God intended, everything gets messed up.
Man is unable to fix what he breaks.
Dorothy Mae
Member
I agree. She gives up her career for family and left with trying to get it back.
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80% of divorces are initiated by by women. The family court system is stacked heavily against men. Men are more likely to lose everything they have, plus half of their annual income. And most family courts are going to award custody to the mother, because it is assumed (often falsely) that mothers are the better parents.
Why would men invest in a business venture that has an 80% chance of failure? Marriage is a bad investment for us, because we are most likely to lose everything in the process.
Why would men invest in a business venture that has an 80% chance of failure? Marriage is a bad investment for us, because we are most likely to lose everything in the process.
from a man's perspective...
Too many women fall for the Hollywood narrative of what a marriage should be. They are expecting some Disney fairytale, where the man is supposed to be rich, handsome, charming, and perfect (brilliant, resourceful, creative, perfect body, perfect teeth, perfect hair, never gets fat, or bald). He's expected to have the body of a Calvin Klein underwear model and earn a 6-figure salary and come complete with a new Corvette and a palatial mansion. Whereas, the woman is only expected to bring her vagina to the bargaining table and produce at least one child. All the emphasis is on the man these days and he is expected to carry the burden of making the marriage work, while the woman has no obligation other than to satiate his sexual needs and have a baby. Sorry if that sounds sexist, but that’s how I see it.
Too many women fall for the Hollywood narrative of what a marriage should be. They are expecting some Disney fairytale, where the man is supposed to be rich, handsome, charming, and perfect (brilliant, resourceful, creative, perfect body, perfect teeth, perfect hair, never gets fat, or bald). He's expected to have the body of a Calvin Klein underwear model and earn a 6-figure salary and come complete with a new Corvette and a palatial mansion. Whereas, the woman is only expected to bring her vagina to the bargaining table and produce at least one child. All the emphasis is on the man these days and he is expected to carry the burden of making the marriage work, while the woman has no obligation other than to satiate his sexual needs and have a baby. Sorry if that sounds sexist, but that’s how I see it.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Others on this thread have stated the above.
It's not sexist,,,,things have really changed.
Sounds like love is non-existent.
How come?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Is this because men have lost their way, or because women have lost their way?
IOW, should men be stronger or would that be worse?
Maybe it would be better...
It's because women today have standards that no mortal man can meet. Everything jbc092671 said is true.
BroRoyVa79
Member
All of the following is just to be unnecessarily contrarian and not an attempt to spark heavy back and forths with anyone...
Now granted, when I say eldest, we're talking about a 19 years old here, like I said and sometimes young people these days tend to freak out when stressful situations occur and run to a nearby older person to work it out. Or maybe I was just weird growing up or it was where I grew up or how I grew up that I had to just figure things out and roll with it. My son on the other hand tends to be a lot like me at his age. "It's whatever." Also granted, she'd seen this before in her sister and heard her mom talk about it happening to her as well.
I'd argue that the way you put this here that it can be seen as a divorce, especially when you use "After these things, Paul departed from Athens" as an example. Other ways that passage is translated is "Paul left Athens and went to Corinth." Both implying an final end to that time in Athens. Likewise, it would imply a final end to that marriage.
But ultimately, Paul likely wrote 1 Corinthians 7:1-16 the way that he did using the words χωρίζω in relation to when the woman leaves the relationship (verses 10-11) versus ἀφίημι (often translated "put away" or "divorce") for the husband also in verse 11, and in verse 12 and 13, because Ancient Jewish customs would only allow a woman to "divorce" her husband by way of her husband's permission. In other words, a woman couldn't officiate/start a divorce process, it was the man that controlled the official "divorce" and if not the man then the rabbinical court on behalf of the man.
For lack of a better academic source right now, here it is at Judaism 101:
And:
And:
For those wondering what a "get" is in Judaism:
Get: Encyclopedia Britannica:
I think this depends on age. A lot of younger women, no, just uh-uh. One, they didn't get taught how by mommy who may have been busy working to pay bills and not teach them how to take care of themselves. Two, young women tend to shy away from the nurturing type of atmosphere. Anecdotal example, and I hope I can do this without embarrassing my daughters too much, I doubt it, but long story short, I'm obviously a man. LOL. Got to clarify that these days. LOL. Ok, those bad jokes aside, well my eldest daughter (19) came running to me one day CRYING her eyes out about my second eldest daughter whom when I removed the earphones I had on my ears blocking out all noise I heard was also upstairs CRYING her eyes out. Their mom was out running an errand. I was also recovering from, I believe COVID (I don't do the test things, but everyone I told about it said they think I had the COVIDs) Anyways, I go upstairs. My second eldest (17) is on the bathroom floor holding her stomach area, spinning around every once and a while on the floor like she was break dancing, moaning and groaning. I immediately knew what was happening and looked at my eldest daughter, also as I said, A FEMALE, like you came to a man about this because you didn't know what to do. This happens to you also. (If you haven't caught on yet, we're dealing with a bad period here). Without getting into everything else that happened that day or why my daughter was in such pain (you ladies likely know, some of you guys do as well), the point was my eldest had no idea what to do in that moment and I've seen examples of that before.
Now granted, when I say eldest, we're talking about a 19 years old here, like I said and sometimes young people these days tend to freak out when stressful situations occur and run to a nearby older person to work it out. Or maybe I was just weird growing up or it was where I grew up or how I grew up that I had to just figure things out and roll with it. My son on the other hand tends to be a lot like me at his age. "It's whatever." Also granted, she'd seen this before in her sister and heard her mom talk about it happening to her as well.
You don't think the dogs would eat her as well if they got hungry after three weeks?
I'd argue that the way you put this here that it can be seen as a divorce, especially when you use "After these things, Paul departed from Athens" as an example. Other ways that passage is translated is "Paul left Athens and went to Corinth." Both implying an final end to that time in Athens. Likewise, it would imply a final end to that marriage.
But ultimately, Paul likely wrote 1 Corinthians 7:1-16 the way that he did using the words χωρίζω in relation to when the woman leaves the relationship (verses 10-11) versus ἀφίημι (often translated "put away" or "divorce") for the husband also in verse 11, and in verse 12 and 13, because Ancient Jewish customs would only allow a woman to "divorce" her husband by way of her husband's permission. In other words, a woman couldn't officiate/start a divorce process, it was the man that controlled the official "divorce" and if not the man then the rabbinical court on behalf of the man.
For lack of a better academic source right now, here it is at Judaism 101:
"Under Jewish law, a man can divorce a woman for any reason or no reason. The Talmud specifically says that a man can divorce a woman because she spoiled his dinner or simply because he finds another woman more attractive, and the woman's consent to the divorce is not required. In fact, Jewish law requires divorce in some circumstances: when the wife commits a sexual transgression, a man must divorce her, even if he is inclined to forgive her."
And:
"According to the Torah, divorce is accomplished simply by writing a bill of divorce, handing it to the wife, and sending her away."
And:
"The position of husband and wife with regard to divorce is not an equal one. According to the Talmud, only the husband can initiate a divorce, and the wife cannot prevent him from divorcing her. Later rabbinical authorities took steps to ease the harshness of these rules by prohibiting a man from divorcing a woman without her consent. In addition, a rabbinical court can compel a husband to divorce his wife under certain circumstances: when he is physically repulsive because of some medical condition or other characteristic, when he violates or neglects his marital obligations (food, clothing and sexual intercourse), or, according to some views, when there is sexual incompatibility.
A peculiar problem arises, however, if a man disappears or deserts his wife or is presumed dead but there is insufficient proof of death. Under Jewish law, divorce can only be initiated by the man; thus, if the husband cannot be found, he cannot be compelled to divorce the wife and she cannot marry another man. A woman in this situation is referred to as agunah (literally, anchored, commonly translated as chained). The rabbis agonized over this problem, balancing the need to allow the woman to remarry with the risk of an adulterous marriage (a grave transgression that would affect the status of offspring of the marriage) if the husband reappeared. No definitive solution to this problem exists. It is particularly problematic in Israel, where a woman without a proper get from a past husband cannot legally remarry, and there are husbands who flee the country to leave their wives chained.
To prevent this problem to some extent, it is customary in many places for a man to give his wife a conditional get whenever he goes off to war, so that if he never comes home and his body is not found, his wife does not become agunah."
(Edited: Realized I should've just added most of the rest of the quote for those who likely won't click on the link and see the "solution" to the agunah.)For those wondering what a "get" is in Judaism:
Get: Encyclopedia Britannica:
"get, also spelled Gett, Hebrew Geṭ (“bill of divorce”), plural Gittin, Jewish document of divorce written in Aramaic according to a prescribed formula. Orthodox and Conservative Jews recognize it as the only valid instrument for severing a marriage bond. Rabbinic courts outside Israel, recognizing the need to comply with civil laws regulating divorce and settlements, require a civil divorce before a get is issued. Reform Jews disregard Talmudic divorce laws and hence require no get but simply accept the ruling of a civil divorce court as sufficient in itself."
(Edited again: Realized I should provide the definition for a "get.")
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Informative, and thanks for sharing.
I had to skip directly to the section where you responded to me, so forgive me if I missed something, but my response would be that doesn't this further my point that Paul would have been referring to separation in 1 Corinthians 7? If she could not initiate divorce herself then it means she wasn't actually divorcing, but simply separating.