Why many stumble.. Amillennialism and Replacement Theology

[francisdesales]

It is hardly surprising that so many churches are amillenialists.

I have yet to meet anybody who is able to square going to heaven or hell with a kingdom of God on earth for the duration of the millennium.

Perhaps the problem is thinking that the Kingdom of God ONLY appears as a visible manifestation of the Christ come in glory. The discussion of an "either/or" kingdom misses the NT witness to the "now" but "not yet" aspects of the Kingdom of God/Heaven. Some Scriptures cite the visible and glorious aspects of the Kingdom, others cite the hidden nature that exists through the presence of the Spirit of God in the Christian. Clearly, for the one who has read the Gospels, they would find all that is needed to "see" that the Kingdom is here ALREADY, hidden as a seed, even now. The Kingdom is present in each faithful Christian who abides in Christ - present by faith, hidden as a seed.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

It is hardly surprising that so many churches are amillenialists.

I have yet to meet anybody who is able to square going to heaven or hell with a kingdom of God on earth for the duration of the millennium.

After all, here comes Christ from heaven to the earth to establish the kingdom and His millennial rule (as per Ps 72 and many others), and all the redeemed are in heaven!

The JWs have the ingenious scenario where Christ reigns OVER the earth (as Rev 5.10), meaning from in heaven or space somewhere!

post that fact from the tract society, i recall him according them reigning from jerusalem. i may be wrong as its been a while when i thought there version of the millenial reign and they are out there on that stuff.

 

[Eventide]

Doesn't the Old Testament make this claim over and over again, that Israel is God's People???

Yes and no.. because not all Israel is Israel.. for the just shall live by faith.

Isn't it the Gentiles who are grafted INTO the People of God?

No, Gentiles are grafted into CHRIST..

And this is the Church, which consists of both Jews and Gentiles?

Regards

The church of God is IN Christ, not IN Israel.. Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. a mystery which should not be ignored..

 

[Stormcrow]

I most certainly do not embrace "replacement" theology, at least as I understand the term.

As for "amillenialism", I do not even know what the term means.

I would advise readers to be wary of labels.

I will get back to this.

AMEN!!!

 

[francisdesales]

Yes and no.. because not all Israel is Israel.. for the just shall live by faith.

I didn't realize you thought that a person had to be righteous to be part of the People of God. Can you point me to some Scriptures that say that Israelites who were "wicked" were not part of Israel, God's People? Does not being "elected by God" indicate that it is grace, and NOT what one does that makes them part of the "People"?

Granted, God will condemn the wicked, to include Jews, but I do not recall any passage in Scriptures that say only the righteous were part of God's People, since over and over, the cycle indicates that ALL of God's People fell into sin and they were subsequently punished, not expelled...

No, Gentiles are grafted into CHRIST..

Paul says in Romans the Gentiles are grafted into the root, which is the partriarchs and the Jewish heritage beginning with Abraham. It is not wrong to say "grafted into Christ", for the People of God ARE the Body of Christ. But it is wrong to exclude the Jews, since the Gentiles were grafted into that people to become one people.

The church of God is IN Christ, not IN Israel.. Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. a mystery which should not be ignored..

I did not make that distinction.

SOME of Israel is blinded. Don't you recall that ALL of the Apostles were Jewish, Paul was Jewish, and numerous of the early Christians were indeed Jewish? Even today, there are Messianic Jews and people of Jewish heritage that have indeed converted. ALL of Israel has not yet converted.

However, the People of God can be rightly called "Israel". Don't you see the significance of Christ choosing TWELVE Apostles?

Regards

 

[Elijah674]

I didn't realize you thought that a person had to be righteous to be part of the People of God. Can you point me to some Scriptures that say that Israelites who were "wicked" were not part of Israel, God's People? Does not being "elected by God" indicate that it is grace, and NOT what one does that makes them part of the "People"?

Granted, God will condemn the wicked, to include Jews, but I do not recall any passage in Scriptures that say only the righteous were part of God's People, since over and over, the cycle indicates that ALL of God's People fell into sin and they were subsequently punished, not expelled...




Paul says in Romans the Gentiles are grafted into the root, which is the partriarchs and the Jewish heritage beginning with Abraham. It is not wrong to say "grafted into Christ", for the People of God ARE the Body of Christ. But it is wrong to exclude the Jews, since the Gentiles were grafted into that people to become one people.



I did not make that distinction.

SOME of Israel is blinded. Don't you recall that ALL of the Apostles were Jewish, Paul was Jewish, and numerous of the early Christians were indeed Jewish? Even today, there are Messianic Jews and people of Jewish heritage that have indeed converted. ALL of Israel has not yet converted.

However, the People of God can be rightly called "Israel". Don't you see the significance of Christ choosing TWELVE Apostles?

Regards

You need to do just a little bit of study
Saved in sin?? Hardly!

 

[francisdesales]

You need to do just a little bit of study
Saved in sin?? Hardly!

You need to do a little bit of reading. Did you actually read what I wrote, esp. after "Granted, God will condemn the wicked..."

I never said anything about "saved in sin"...

 

[Asyncritus]

No, Gentiles are grafted into CHRIST..

You sure about this one ?

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

I think that the more correct statement would be: through Christ they have been grafted into the olive tree of Israel.

Remember, He is the gardener, not the tree.

 

[jasoncran]

Yes and no.. because not all Israel is Israel.. for the just shall live by faith.



No, Gentiles are grafted into CHRIST..



The church of God is IN Christ, not IN Israel.. Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. a mystery which should not be ignored..

since i am of jewish lineage and heritage, what pretell am i? a christian or jew? isreali or Gods child

if you really read that verse it implies that isreal or a portion of the physical seed of isreal will be saved in due time. they will be like all other believers from the time of jesus till now. there wont be any jews that are saved by the ot laws and rules and sacrifices that was done at the cross.

so when the jews do come they do it as all believers.

and uh its really our faith is a jewish faith and our God is a jewish one as he claimed them first then went and took that updated means of serving him to the gentiles(goyim) or in english the nations.

 

[Eventide]

I didn't realize you thought that a person had to be righteous to be part of the People of God. Can you point me to some Scriptures that say that Israelites who were "wicked" were not part of Israel, God's People? Does not being "elected by God" indicate that it is grace, and NOT what one does that makes them part of the "People"?

Granted, God will condemn the wicked, to include Jews, but I do not recall any passage in Scriptures that say only the righteous were part of God's People, since over and over, the cycle indicates that ALL of God's People fell into sin and they were subsequently punished, not expelled...

Paul tells us that not all Israel is Israel.. meaning not all Israelites are the Israel of God.. the LORD told the Pharisees which didn't believe in Him that their father was the devil.. they could not have been the Israel of God.. Israelites, yes.. but not a part of the Israel of God. Same with Judas.. an Israelite no doubt although not of the Israel of God.. which would consist of the faithful patriachs mentioned throughout the scriptures. Christendom is similar in that not all who profess Christ actually possess Christ within their earthen vessel.. they're not in Christ and Christ is not in them.

Paul says in Romans the Gentiles are grafted into the root, which is the partriarchs and the Jewish heritage beginning with Abraham. It is not wrong to say "grafted into Christ", for the People of God ARE the Body of Christ. But it is wrong to exclude the Jews, since the Gentiles were grafted into that people to become one people.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the 'root' and the offspring of David.. He is De-vine and we are the branches.. again, the church is in Christ.. not in Israel.

I did not make that distinction.

SOME of Israel is blinded. Don't you recall that ALL of the Apostles were Jewish, Paul was Jewish, and numerous of the early Christians were indeed Jewish? Even today, there are Messianic Jews and people of Jewish heritage that have indeed converted. ALL of Israel has not yet converted.

However, the People of God can be rightly called "Israel". Don't you see the significance of Christ choosing TWELVE Apostles?

Regards

What scripture(s) would you use to teach that the church of God is Israel ?

As for the twelve apostles.. we know that they will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel when the LORD comes and sits upon the throne of His glory.. this is what Matthew 19 teaches along with Matthew 25.

 

[Eventide]

You sure about this one ?

Absolutely.. the church of God is in Christ, not in Israel.. Israel has been cut off and they remain blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. there's no way that the life of the church is in Israel.. it's in Christ, and it's His future bride to be.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

I think that the more correct statement would be: through Christ they have been grafted into the olive tree of Israel.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the 'root' and the offspring of David.. He is De-vine and we are the branches.. yes ?

Remember, He is the gardener, not the tree.

His Father is the gardener, right ? Christ is the vine.. He is the way, the truth, and the LIFE.. right ?

 

[Eventide]

since i am of jewish lineage and heritage, what pretell am i? a christian or jew? isreali or Gods child

Any Jew can also be a Christian, in Christ.. Paul was an Israelite.. a Jew, and he was in Christ.. just as any Gentile can be in Christ.

if you really read that verse it implies that isreal or a portion of the physical seed of isreal will be saved in due time. they will be like all other believers from the time of jesus till now. there wont be any jews that are saved by the ot laws and rules and sacrifices that was done at the cross.

so when the jews do come they do it as all believers.

The overall context of Romans 9 - 11 pertains to the nation of Israel and its earthly ordinances.. and I believe that scripture shows us that the 'nation' of Israel will be saved in the end.. Christ will rule over all the earth from Jerusalem (the city of the great King) and His Apostles will sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.. in that Day.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ..

and uh its really our faith is a jewish faith and our God is a jewish one as he claimed them first then went and took that updated means of serving him to the gentiles(goyim) or in english the nations.

Amen to that.. it's amazing that all Israel will be saved in the end.. and that Israel will once again be head of the nations.. when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ...

 

[jasoncran]

Any Jew can also be a Christian, in Christ.. Paul was an Israelite.. a Jew, and he was in Christ.. just as any Gentile can be in Christ.



The overall context of Romans 9 - 11 pertains to the nation of Israel and its earthly ordinances.. and I believe that scripture shows us that the 'nation' of Israel will be saved in the end.. Christ will rule over all the earth from Jerusalem (the city of the great King) and His Apostles will sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.. in that Day.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ..



Amen to that.. it's amazing that all Israel will be saved in the end.. and that Israel will once again be head of the nations.. when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ...

so you believe in the millenium that the jews will worship via the ways of tanakh and torah and taldmudic traditions from moses till the lord.

i dont hold to that as the lord's blood isnt somehow declared inssuficient in the millenium.and also that would make persons like me kinda on the odds as we are just as a jew as the believing ones and faithful in days of the torah and temple sacrificial system.

 

[Eventide]

so you believe in the millenium that the jews will worship via the ways of tanakh and torah and taldmudic traditions from moses till the lord.

i dont hold to that as the lord's blood isnt somehow declared inssuficient in the millenium.and also that would make persons like me kinda on the odds as we are just as a jew as the believing ones and faithful in days of the torah and temple sacrificial system.

I believe that Israel will be saved the same exact way that everyone else is saved.. by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.. but the first shall be last and the last shall be first..

 

[francisdesales]

Paul tells us that not all Israel is Israel.. meaning not all Israelites are the Israel of God..

The People of God, according to the Scriptures of Paul's day, were the Jews. The Jewish race, as a people. Not just the good ones. I could cite dozens of verses to that effect. Sure, Paul details the "spiritually circumcised Jew" as opposed to the Jew circumcised in the flesh alone. But as an example, the Exodus speaks of God saving His People, meaning ALL of the Jews, from Egypt. There is no indication in Scriptures that God's People saved from Egypt were only the ones "in faith". Certainly, many of His People died on the road to the Promised Land. But at the end of the day, it would be difficult to refute that God's People were the Jews - the receivers of the Covenant, the promises, the prophets, etc., as Paul details in Romans. ALL of the Jews could claim this background.

the LORD told the Pharisees which didn't believe in Him that their father was the devil..

As a PEOPLE, the Jews were God's People. Some leaders were poor shepherds. Did some individuals falter and fall away? Sure. Do some CHRISTIANS do the same thing??? Of course.

Do you think Christians are some how immune to the effects of falling away? Consider the parable of the sower and the seed.

they could not have been the Israel of God.. Israelites, yes.. but not a part of the Israel of God.

I think you will need some OT Scriptures to back this up with. You are misinterpreting Paul, who is trying to figure out WHY some Jews do not see that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. It is a sore point with him. Read the beginning of Romans 11. "Hath God cast away HIS PEOPLE"??? Can this refer to only the "righteous"? No...

Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded Romans 11:7

The rest, are indeed, God's People who are blinded.

Same with Judas.. an Israelite no doubt although not of the Israel of God.. which would consist of the faithful patriachs mentioned throughout the scriptures.

Again, you are going to have to show me some Scriptures to the effect that "only the righteous are God's People". The very reason why God is "saddened" is because HIS PEOPLE are turning away from Him!!!

I removed his shoulder from the burden: his hands were delivered from the pots. Thou calledst in trouble, and I delivered thee; I answered thee in the secret place of thunder: I proved thee at the waters of Meribah. Selah. Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee: O Israel, if thou wilt hearken unto me; There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god. I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me Psalm 81:6-11


Now, Eventide, who is "my people" above??? The righteous Jew or the Jews as an entire race of men, women and children???

I would suggest that you do a word search on "my people" and check out the context and see if you find any of the results that speak of "my people" as only the righteous Jews...

Christendom is similar in that not all who profess Christ actually possess Christ within their earthen vessel.. they're not in Christ and Christ is not in them.

I disagree. Unfortunately, it sounds like you believe that only the "good people" are "the Church", when Christ, through parables, state that the Church do have members who are not "good". For example, the wheat and the tares. EVERYONE who professed Christ and were baptised were baptised into the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 6). There is no provisional exception there. Now, granted, one who becomes wicked and later returns to the "vomit of their former life" will not inherit the Kingdom, in this world or the next; it will be lost to them. However, ALL Christians are God's People who God calls unto Himself. Some refuse to persevere. They fall away in time of trouble. But they WERE part of the Body of Christ, even for awhile.

We are not speaking of "who is in Christ and Christ in them". Only those who obey the Will of the Father have Christ abiding within them. But as to the subject, who are God's People, that would refer to those who are part of the New Covenant (and we don't know WHO will be harvested as wheat at the end of time...)

The Lord Jesus Christ is the 'root' and the offspring of David.. He is De-vine and we are the branches.. again, the church is in Christ.. not in Israel.

Paul sometimes protrays Jesus as the representative of mankind or of Israel. Jesus does this Himself in some of His parables, drawing on the OT useage of "vineyeard", for example. It certainly CAN be seen as Christ Himself, I do not deny that interpretation. However, we must understand that the literal sense is the Jewish people - whom Christ is a representative of/for. When Paul speaks of branches being broken off the olive tree, don't you think he is speaking of Jews? And the root, righteous Jews, the patriarachs, prophets, etc?

What scripture(s) would you use to teach that the church of God is Israel ?

Romans 11, for example, when it speaks of Gentiles being grafted INTO the root of Israel. (which can be interpreted as the Christ, if we see Christ as the head of the Body that comes before the Father as one whole "entity")

Many Scriptures that speak of salvation to Israel can be read with Christians in mind in a spiritual sense. Paul does this, for example in 1 Cor 10, when he compares the promises and gifts given to Israel as a precursor or foreshadowing of what was to come more clearly through Christ's formulation of God's plan, that the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles WOULD BE broken down by Christ. Now, the People of God is not dependent upon being an ethnical Jew. NOW, God's People includes Gentiles who have Abraham as their father in faith.

As for the twelve apostles.. we know that they will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel when the LORD comes and sits upon the throne of His glory.. this is what Matthew 19 teaches along with Matthew 25.

Yes, and why the number "12"??? What is the significance of our Lord choosing 12 Apostles? Is there any connection with the 12 tribes of Israel? Is it a supplanting of or a joining of between the Old and the New?

Christianity has always had to deal with this problem, I fear (super-secession). Even in the 2nd century, men were trying to get rid of the OT and the "mean God" of the OT. Consider the following, which Peter cites in part from Exodus in reference to GOD'S PEOPLE...

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

God is grafting in a people who were not His People into the People of God, and the same promises made to Abraham and the Jews are available to all who live by faith (as opposed to only ethnic Jews)...

Regards

 

[Eventide]

The People of God, according to the Scriptures of Paul's day, were the Jews. The Jewish race, as a people. Not just the good ones. I could cite dozens of verses to that effect. Sure, Paul details the "spiritually circumcised Jew" as opposed to the Jew circumcised in the flesh alone. But as an example, the Exodus speaks of God saving His People, meaning ALL of the Jews, from Egypt. There is no indication in Scriptures that God's People saved from Egypt were only the ones "in faith". Certainly, many of His People died on the road to the Promised Land. But at the end of the day, it would be difficult to refute that God's People were the Jews - the receivers of the Covenant, the promises, the prophets, etc., as Paul details in Romans. ALL of the Jews could claim this background.



As a PEOPLE, the Jews were God's People. Some leaders were poor shepherds. Did some individuals falter and fall away? Sure. Do some CHRISTIANS do the same thing??? Of course.

Do you think Christians are some how immune to the effects of falling away? Consider the parable of the sower and the seed.



I think you will need some OT Scriptures to back this up with. You are misinterpreting Paul, who is trying to figure out WHY some Jews do not see that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. It is a sore point with him. Read the beginning of Romans 11. "Hath God cast away HIS PEOPLE"??? Can this refer to only the "righteous"? No...

Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded Romans 11:7

The rest, are indeed, God's People who are blinded.




Again, you are going to have to show me some Scriptures to the effect that "only the righteous are God's People". The very reason why God is "saddened" is because HIS PEOPLE are turning away from Him!!!

I removed his shoulder from the burden: his hands were delivered from the pots. Thou calledst in trouble, and I delivered thee; I answered thee in the secret place of thunder: I proved thee at the waters of Meribah. Selah. Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee: O Israel, if thou wilt hearken unto me; There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god. I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me Psalm 81:6-11


Now, Eventide, who is "my people" above??? The righteous Jew or the Jews as an entire race of men, women and children???

I would suggest that you do a word search on "my people" and check out the context and see if you find any of the results that speak of "my people" as only the righteous Jews...



I disagree. Unfortunately, it sounds like you believe that only the "good people" are "the Church", when Christ, through parables, state that the Church do have members who are not "good". For example, the wheat and the tares. EVERYONE who professed Christ and were baptised were baptised into the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 6). There is no provisional exception there. Now, granted, one who becomes wicked and later returns to the "vomit of their former life" will not inherit the Kingdom, in this world or the next; it will be lost to them. However, ALL Christians are God's People who God calls unto Himself. Some refuse to persevere. They fall away in time of trouble. But they WERE part of the Body of Christ, even for awhile.

We are not speaking of "who is in Christ and Christ in them". Only those who obey the Will of the Father have Christ abiding within them. But as to the subject, who are God's People, that would refer to those who are part of the New Covenant (and we don't know WHO will be harvested as wheat at the end of time...)




Paul sometimes protrays Jesus as the representative of mankind or of Israel. Jesus does this Himself in some of His parables, drawing on the OT useage of "vineyeard", for example. It certainly CAN be seen as Christ Himself, I do not deny that interpretation. However, we must understand that the literal sense is the Jewish people - whom Christ is a representative of/for. When Paul speaks of branches being broken off the olive tree, don't you think he is speaking of Jews? And the root, righteous Jews, the patriarachs, prophets, etc?



Romans 11, for example, when it speaks of Gentiles being grafted INTO the root of Israel. (which can be interpreted as the Christ, if we see Christ as the head of the Body that comes before the Father as one whole "entity")

Many Scriptures that speak of salvation to Israel can be read with Christians in mind in a spiritual sense. Paul does this, for example in 1 Cor 10, when he compares the promises and gifts given to Israel as a precursor or foreshadowing of what was to come more clearly through Christ's formulation of God's plan, that the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles WOULD BE broken down by Christ. Now, the People of God is not dependent upon being an ethnical Jew. NOW, God's People includes Gentiles who have Abraham as their father in faith.



Yes, and why the number "12"??? What is the significance of our Lord choosing 12 Apostles? Is there any connection with the 12 tribes of Israel? Is it a supplanting of or a joining of between the Old and the New?

Christianity has always had to deal with this problem, I fear (super-secession). Even in the 2nd century, men were trying to get rid of the OT and the "mean God" of the OT. Consider the following, which Peter cites in part from Exodus in reference to GOD'S PEOPLE...

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

God is grafting in a people who were not His People into the People of God, and the same promises made to Abraham and the Jews are available to all who live by faith (as opposed to only ethnic Jews)...

Regards

Well, I shared my thoughts with you.. although you haven't explained what Paul means when he says that not all Israel is Israel... so by all means.. tell us what it means..

And as I had asked earlier.. what scripture(s) would you use to teach others that the church of God is Israel ?

 

[francisdesales]

Well, I shared my thoughts with you.. although you haven't explained what Paul means when he says that not all Israel is Israel... so by all means.. tell us what it means..

And as I had asked earlier.. what scripture(s) would you use to teach others that the church of God is Israel ?

I think we need to back up first and identify whether ALL Jews were considered part of the people of God in the OT before we continue. You didn't even bother to address that. My answer depends on your understanding this biblical truth of the OT - and Paul clearly is aware of this truth. So before I can answer what Paul means, we have to agree what HIS background and understanding of the People of God as per the OT were...

So before we look at Paul, we have to determine what the OT said about who was God's People. What does Sacred Scriptures (inspired by God) state about the Jews and being God's People?

Does the OT state that only good and righteous people were "Israel" or that only THEY were the People of God??? Does Psalm 81, for example, only address the "good and righteous" that would not turn to God??? :

Regards

 

[Eventide]

I think we need to back up first and identify whether ALL Jews were considered part of the people of God in the OT before we continue. You didn't even bother to address that. My answer depends on your understanding this biblical truth of the OT - and Paul clearly is aware of this truth. So before I can answer what Paul means, we have to agree what HIS background and understanding of the People of God as per the OT were...

So before we look at Paul, we have to determine what the OT said about who was God's People. What does Sacred Scriptures (inspired by God) state about the Jews and being God's People?

Does the OT state that only good and righteous people were "Israel" or that only THEY were the People of God??? Does Psalm 81, for example, only address the "good and righteous" that would not turn to God??? :

Regards

AS I mentioned, I have ALREADY SHARED my thoughts as to what "All Israel is not Israel" means... you may disagree.. no problem.. happens all the time.. now tell us what YOU think that it means.

And for the record, there are NONE good but one, and that is God.. and the just live by faith.. you may disagree with that as well.. although that's what the bible teaches.

 

[Elijah674]

Well, I shared my thoughts with you.. although you haven't explained what Paul means when he says that not all Israel is Israel... so by all means.. tell us what it means..

And as I had asked earlier.. what scripture(s) would you use to teach others that the church of God is Israel ?

Who cares?;) But here is my documented understanding.
--Elijah

OK: Now who is now Israel?
Exod. 5:1 The God of Israel
Exod.5

[1] And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
[2] And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

Mal. 2
[16] For the LORD, the God [of Israel], saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
[17] Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?


Rom. 9:6
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are not the children of God:] but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Isa. 46
[3] Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
[4] And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
[5] To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?


(and the Remnant that have been the sifted, & are the only OBEDIENT ones, that are left!)

Zeph.3
[1] Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city!
[2] She obeyed not the voice; she received not correction; she trusted not in the LORD; she drew not near to her God.
[3] Her princes within her are roaring lions; her judges are evening wolves; they gnaw not the bones till the morrow.

[4] Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have done violence to the law.
[5] The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not;but the unjust knoweth no shame.
[6] I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.

[7] I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.

[8] Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

[9] For then [will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent].
[10] From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.
[11] In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
[12] I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
[13] The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
[14] Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.


Matt. 15
[23] But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
[24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
[25] Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
[26] But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
[27] And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
[28] Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Rom. 2
[24] For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
[25] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
[26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

[27] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

[28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And these ones are Israel!

 

[francisdesales]

AS I mentioned, I have ALREADY SHARED my thoughts as to what "All Israel is not Israel" means... you may disagree.. no problem.. happens all the time.. now tell us what YOU think that it means.

You haven't shared your thoughts based upon my counter-post (the one with Psalms 81 cited). I think Elijah's post gives many more examples.

I believe your understanding of "the people of God" in the OT is in error. Understand that Paul is drawing from THAT data, not 21st century super-secessionism. Do you still think that the People of God in the OT were restricted to only the righteous?

And for the record, there are NONE good but one, and that is God..

Yes, it is from God that all goodness derives from... Those who share in God's goodness (which He freely gives - grace...) are good as well.

and the just live by faith.. you may disagree with that as well.. although that's what the bible teaches.

I am not sure why you think I disagree with that? What makes you state this?

Regards