Why many stumble.. Amillennialism and Replacement Theology

[jasoncran]

Hello Drew... long time no chat. We have talked many times about Romans 9. Certainly I am in accord with your suggestion that the meaning of a phrase must be determined by the context. Let me first repeat what I hear you saying.
You are looking at the phrase "They are not all Israel." You say this phrase speaks of both Jews and Gentiles in the Church? Right? I say this because of your 2nd sentence in which you speak of the "Jew+Gentile church." So then, the question is are Gentiles included in the meaning of the term Israel in Romans 9:6.

Now for my opinion... I think every decent exegete will recognize that there is a "non-Israel" in the first phrase. I don't think you are saying anything different. You too recognize that there is a "non-Israel" in the phrase you choose. Where we disagree is on the exact identity of that "non-Israel."
I see 3 groups in Romans 9:6.
1 "They" ---- Grammatically, when you have a pronoun, you must always look for its antecedent. The antecedent of the pronoun "they" is found in verses 3-5. It would be a gross violation of the rules of grammar to suggest that verses 3-4 does not speak of genetic Israel. Notice the language of verse 3....
"for my brethren's sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 who are Israelites; "
Paul further elaborates that this Israel.... "They" have the covenants, the giving of the law... etc.
I hope we agree on #1 here that the antecedent of the word "they" in verse 6 is Genetic ISrael. Do we agree here?

2 "are not all Israel" ---- Now I want to mention that the clause in question here does not say "They are no Israel." Notice the word "all." The actual clause is that "they are not 'all' Israel." This means that not "all" genetic Israel is Israel." Of course unbelieving Israel rejected God and Christ. Paul is saying that these unbelievers are not a part of the term "Israel" in the sense of the fulfillment of the fulfillment of the (verse 4-5) ...
"...the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh..."
All these great blessings do not belong to "all" genetic Israel. This of course means that some of Genetic Israel will be the fulfillment of these promises. In my opinion, Paul is here not talking about the whole Church, but only the believing Jewish part of the Church. He is saying that not all genetic Israel is the believing Israel part of the Church. So this 2nd group is non-believing Israelites.

3 "that are of Israel" This phrase speaks of believing, elect Israel. This is the Israel of God. This does not speak of Gentiles, but of the believing part of Genetic Israel. Paul is going to include Gentiles in this group later in the passage in verse 24. He says.... "24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? " While it is true that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in the Church, this does not mean that there is no Jew and Gentile in the Church.

CONCLUSION
In all this, I am not seeing Gentiles in verse 6. Every time the term Israel is used in the passage, it seems to me that it is used either of all Genetic Israel, or some part of Genetic Israel, either believing or unbelieving. The Gentiles never enter the picture until verse 24. Then Paul merely says that the same principle that applies to Israel, works also with the Gentiles.

This leaves Romans 9 as saying that all the things mentioned in verse 3-5 belong to part of Genetic Israel. It is then fulfilled with that group. When God includes Gentiles in the same identical blessings in verse 24, that would not "fulfill" the promises to genetic Israel. However, while this is true, the giving of identical blessing to Gentiles does not break his word either. God never promises to give the blessings of verses 4-5 to only Israel. The fact that he gives the same grace to Gentiles that he promised to Jews only means that his grace can super abound beyond his promises and go to Gentiles. So then, God must fulfill his promises literally to Jews, but his grace is in no way limited to only Jews by his promises.

ONE MORE COMMENT
There are two phrases in the passage that I want to include in our discussion because I think they are the real topic behind Romans 9 This is what chapter 9 is really all about. It is the beginning of verse 6 and also verse 11. It seems to me that the essence of the passage is an apologetic to unbelieving Jews.
"6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought.
11 ....that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, "
* It seems to me that there is a major contrast between verse 6 and verse 11. In verse 6 Paul is concerned to show why the word of God does not fall. Compare this with verse 11 where the purpose of God will stand.
If we view the promises of verses 4-5 as being to genetic Israel, and in verse 3 Paul stresses that the promises are indeed to genetic Israel, then the word of God falls unless those promises are fulfilled in genetic Israel. Chapter 9 explains that the word of God stands, the promise of God will be made good, and that has to do with the elect of Israel. If no Gentiles were saved, the word of God would still stand. The apologetic to unbelieving Jews is not that Gentiles are saved and called Israel. The apologetic concerns that the promises to Jews will be fulfilled with Jews. While this might be true, verse 24 makes it very very very clear, that while the issue concerning the word of God standing or falling has to do with Israel, the Gentiles partake in that very same salvation, and in the very same blessings that Israel received.
That comes out a little interesting... because if you look at the passage with reference to salvation, all believers partake in Israels blessings and promises. In that way we are all Israel even if we are Gentiles. It is one Church. But when looking at the apologetic of the passage, and what Paul is saying concerning the word of God standing or falling, it messes up the apologetic of Romans 9 to say that Gentiles are a part of Israel. The apologetic part of the passage can never be understood in the right way if you make Gentiles to be any part of verse 6.

first off glad that you stopped by.

this is how i take the view of isreal and the gentiles. i look forward to living in the kingdom in isreal if i so choose to move there when the kingdom of christ is established on the earth in the physical sense.

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

The New Testament declares that the promises are fulfilled in Christ and are given to those who are in Christ (Gal 3-4). It occurs to me that if the promises are yet to be fulfilled in relation to the nation of Israel, then believing that the New Testament is the written word of God and being a Christian is futile.

FC

 

[Eventide]

Eventide

The New Testament declares that the promises are fulfilled in Christ and are given to those who are in Christ (Gal 3-4). It occurs to me that if the promises are yet to be fulfilled in relation to the nation of Israel, then believing that the New Testament is the written word of God and being a Christian is futile.

FC

All promises are fulfilled in Christ.. and the nation of Israel will be in Christ after the fulness of the GENTILES be come in and the Deliverer comes from Sion to turn ungodliness from JACOB..

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

You just agreed with my position. Better try that again. And this time you offer Scripture.

FC

 

[Eventide]

Eventide

You just agreed with my position. Better try that again. And this time you offer Scripture.

FC

Well, we'd agree if you believe that the nation of Israel will be saved and 'in Christ' in the end..

Israel is blinded in part right now and their house has been left desolate.. although again, after the fulness of the GENTILES come in, the Deliverer shall come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB.

 

[jasoncran]

what eventide means that as the nation of isreal, the practicing jews that are in judaism will by the sanhedrin(and yes these guys are back) will say to the lord , you are the messiah and weep for him.

isreal as a nation realises that the only allies they often have are christians.

 

[Eventide]

what eventide means that as the nation of isreal, the practicing jews that are in judaism will by the sanhedrin(and yes these guys are back) will say to the lord , you are the messiah and weep for him.

isreal as a nation realises that the only allies they often have are christians.

Yes.. and it's not going to be a walk in the park either.. the prophets speak of all nations coming against Israel and that two thirds shall be cut off, and the rest taken through the fire.. the time of JACOB's trouble.. and they shall be DELIVERED in that Day.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

Yes.. and it's not going to be a walk in the park either.. the prophets speak of all nations coming against Israel and that two thirds shall be cut off, and the rest taken through the fire.. the time of JACOB's trouble.. and they shall be DELIVERED in that Day.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.

ah without getting into a heavy tribulation argument.

i dont believe in a seven yr trib. i see it alittle different as well, in order for the temple to be holy again it would mean that God says that animal sacrifices are the way to him. the temple cant be consecreated again like that, as that was done away with at the cross.

the aod per most of the any of the tribber thought isnt what the bible says. i believe that most likely is that the messiah( a false one) will come and be proclaimed to be the savior of the jews, he then will turn on them and then opps. they deny him and proclaim jesus as one and thats when he comes to save them.

 

[Eventide]

ah without getting into a heavy tribulation argument.

i dont believe in a seven yr trib. i see it alittle different as well, in order for the temple to be holy again it would mean that God says that animal sacrifices are the way to him. the temple cant be consecreated again like that, as that was done away with at the cross.

the aod per most of the any of the tribber thought isnt what the bible says. i believe that most likely is that the messiah( a false one) will come and be proclaimed to be the savior of the jews, he then will turn on them and then opps. they deny him and proclaim jesus as one and thats when he comes to save them.

Rev 12 speaks of Israel having a place prepared for them in the wilderness for 1260 days or ~3.5 years.. Matthew 24 calls it the tribulation.. the OT speaks of it as Jacob's trouble. The important thing is that Israel is DELIVERED at that time..

 

[jasoncran]

Rev 12 speaks of Israel having a place prepared for them in the wilderness for 1260 days or ~3.5 years.. Matthew 24 calls it the tribulation.. the OT speaks of it as Jacob's trouble. The important thing is that Israel is DELIVERED at that time..

if you are going to quote that matthew vs as that then why would jesus tell us in the tribulation to flee to the wilderness again when that in essence is what some jews did after the temple destruction in ad 70?

and remember even some pre-tribbers dont believe that the ac will rule the entire world but the ten kingdoms.


i dont buy that as well it sets a clock, once any of the clocks start all said saints know when the deliverer arrives. yet theres this no man knows the hour.

 

[Eventide]

if you are going to quote that matthew vs as that then why would jesus tell us in the tribulation to flee to the wilderness again when that in essence is what some jews did after the temple destruction in ad 70?

Not sure what you're asking here Jason.. please clarify.

and remember even some pre-tribbers dont believe that the ac will rule the entire world but the ten kingdoms.

Rev 13 says.. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

i dont buy that as well it sets a clock, once any of the clocks start all said saints know when the deliverer arrives. yet theres this no man knows the hour.

Are you implying that the tribulation of Matthew 24 has already happened..?

 

[jasoncran]

Not sure what you're asking here Jason.. please clarify.



Rev 13 says.. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.



Are you implying that the tribulation of Matthew 24 has already happened..?

for isreal yes, that was in judgment, for what purpose was the temple in the first place.

i see it alittle different in that:

1) we are already in the tribulation.
2) saints die dialy
3) the jews will try to reach God and be decieved by the ac
4) this doesnt have to have a seven yr period

lastly, this is all subject to change as well, i am no scholar. and no scholar or eschatology if one is honest has all the bases covered.

why was the temple destroyed in the first place? the jews rejected jesus.

so why would the jews have to face another type of judgment for something the modern state really never had( a physical visitation of the lord) for if they see him again.

 

[Eventide]

for isreal yes, that was in judgment, for what purpose was the temple in the first place.

i see it alittle different in that:

1) we are already in the tribulation.
2) saints die dialy
3) the jews will try to reach God and be decieved by the ac
4) this doesnt have to have a seven yr period

lastly, this is all subject to change as well, i am no scholar. and no scholar or eschatology if one is honest has all the bases covered.

why was the temple destroyed in the first place? the jews rejected jesus.

I disagree that we are in the tribulation now.. the time of JACOB's trouble..

And I'm no scholar either.. just sharing an opinion of what I see in the scriptures.

 

[jasoncran]

I disagree that we are in the tribulation now.. the time of JACOB's trouble..

And I'm no scholar either.. just sharing an opinion of what I see in the scriptures.

and what theres absolutely no murder of the saints? do you actually read what the situation is for the christians in china, iran, iraq and sudan?

heres the problem if the church is remove and God focus is on isreal? how then will the rest of the world hear the gospel and also in said trib more gentiles come to christ then jews.


jews in isreal(as we cant just say isreal as physical nation as there are more jews in america then isreal) dont even compromise 6% of worlds population.


so God is going to ignore the entire world and save only isreal and nearby gentiles. so obviously said tribulation would have to be worldwide, yet the bible doesnt even mention other places.


theres much we dont know.

 

[Eventide]

and what theres absolutely no murder of the saints? do you actually read what the situation is for the christians in china, iran, iraq and sudan?

There's a difference between tribulation and the great tribulation..

heres the problem if the church is remove and God focus is on isreal? how then will the rest of the world hear the gospel and also in said trib more gentiles come to christ then jews.

The Revelation says this..

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people..

jews in isreal(as we cant just say isreal as physical nation as there are more jews in america then isreal) dont even compromise 6% of worlds population.


so God is going to ignore the entire world and save only isreal and nearby gentiles. so obviously said tribulation would have to be worldwide, yet the bible doesnt even mention other places.

The grat tribulation is worldwide.. Revelation says that it will be the time of testing for the whole world.. (Rev 3:10)

theres much we dont know.

That I can agree on..

 

[jasoncran]

revalation 3:10?

10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

interesting i have read that book a few times, but i dont see the church being removed during that time.

it makes no sense to yank out the believers , God didnt promise us safety from the devil or men only that he wouldnt judge us.

and the on the word keep is tereo, it implies nothing on a raptured or removal from the earth.

G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh‘-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to 2334 ; to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from 5442 which is properly to prevent escaping; and from 2892 which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.

so given that .. that means if we are in christ he will guard us from the tempatation and carry us through the temptation.

 

[Eventide]

revalation 3:10?

interesting i have read that book a few times, but i dont see the church being removed during that time.

it makes no sense to yank out the believers , God didnt promise us safety from the devil or men only that he wouldnt judge us.

and the on the word keep is tereo, it implies nothing on a raptured or removal from the earth.

so given that .. that means if we are in christ he will guard us from the tempatation and carry us through the temptation.

I wouldn't use Rev 3:10 to show the rapture of the church of God.. but rather to show that the time of testing does come upon the whole world..

The rapture (or catching away of the church of God) is a biblical fact, although it's the timing of this event which many debate.. and we know that the Marriage of the Lamb to His church takes place in heaven as Rev 19 describes.. and that these are following Him when He comes in judgment.. so they were obviously taken up before He comes..

 

[jasoncran]

pre wrath you mean.

that we agree. but to say that ere the tribulation is well saying the jews and gentiles in the trib arent in the church.

which some pre-tribbers do say. alabaster made that mistake with me and i corrected her and she then saw opps and changed.

 

[Eventide]

pre wrath you mean.

that we agree. but to say that ere the tribulation is well saying the jews and gentiles in the trib arent in the church.

which some pre-tribbers do say. alabaster made that mistake with me and i corrected her and she then saw opps and changed.

Not sure I follow you here.. but of course not all Jews and Gentiles are members of the church of God..

 

[jasoncran]

Not sure I follow you here.. but of course not all Jews and Gentiles are members of the church of God..

what happens when one is saved?

are they not in the body of christ? we agreed that salvation is the same for the jews and gentiles right now.

so unless during the tribulation then we have another way to the lord and another gospel how then will the trib saints be saved?

besides all the promises to isreal in a nut shell is, serve me and believe the messiah i sent. and you are redeem and a land promise with kingdom. that is it,not another gospel or way to him.