Why many stumble.. Amillennialism and Replacement Theology

[Eventide]

You haven't shared your thoughts based upon my counter-post (the one with Psalms 81 cited). I think Elijah's post gives many more examples.

I believe your understanding of "the people of God" in the OT is in error. Understand that Paul is drawing from THAT data, not 21st century super-secessionism. Do you still think that the People of God in the OT were restricted to only the righteous?

The discussion is about who the Israel of God is.. I understand that the nation of Israel was comprised of all twelve tribes regardless of which ones were righteous or not righteous.. although once again.. we're obviously talking about who the Israel of God is.. and I HAVE plainly stated my views as to that discussion.

It's pretty clear to me that you're reluctant to tell us what YOU think the Israel of God is.. because you haven't done that. You can disagree with me til the cows come home and that's fine.. although why can't you tell us what your thoughts are as to who the Israel of God is with respect to Paul telling us that not all Israel is Israel..

If you don't want to, fine again.. that speaks for itself.

Yes, it is from God that all goodness derives from... Those who share in God's goodness (which He freely gives - grace...) are good as well.

If this were true then the bible is not true.. because the bible says that there are none good but one, and that is God.. Christ is our righteousness.. it's not Christ and me that's good, it's Christ in me that's good..

I am not sure why you think I disagree with that? What makes you state this?

Regards

I didn't say that you disagreed with it.. I said that you may disagree with this as well..

 

[francisdesales]

The discussion is about who the Israel of God is.. I understand that the nation of Israel was comprised of all twelve tribes regardless of which ones were righteous or not righteous.. although once again.. we're obviously talking about who the Israel of God is.. and I HAVE plainly stated my views as to that discussion.

It's pretty clear to me that you're reluctant to tell us what YOU think the Israel of God is.. because you haven't done that.

Sigh...

We haven't gotten to that because of this comment you made, and continue to verify with your faulty subsequent posts on the OT People of God - that you do not believe that all of the Jews were the People of God in the OT...

Francisdesales:

Doesn't the Old Testament make this claim over and over again, that Israel is God's People???

Eventide:

Yes and no.. because not all Israel is Israel.. for the just shall live by faith.


Your subsequent posts verified that you believe that only the "righteous" of the Jews were actually God's People. This idea of yours has repercussions on defining the Church as Israel in Paul's day and ours. So to correct your view and further discuss Paul, we must first go back to your faulty understanding of the OT. My "reluctance" has nothing to do with anything but trying to process this in an orderly fashion. The comment on "that speaks for itself" is un-called for.

If this were true then the bible is not true.. because the bible says that there are none good but one, and that is God.. Christ is our righteousness.. it's not Christ and me that's good, it's Christ in me that's good..

Are you or are you not being sanctified in and BY Christ???

I didn't say that you disagreed with it.. I said that you may disagree with this as well..

Very well, you may disagree that Judas was crucified on the cross, rather than Jesus...

My point is "why you even brought it up".

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Sigh...

I agree francis.. it's pointless to continue when you can't answer a simple question.. and yes, that speaks for itself.

Enjoy !

 

[Eventide]

And not a single verse shared by anyone which teaches that the church of God is Israel..

That also speaks for itself.

 

[Former Christian]

I'm often astounded that Christians equate the modern state of Israel with the Israel revealed in the Old Testament and the Gospels. They need to read the history of this state and it's constitution. They need to read about the people who started this state and what they believed.

The Israel that existed prior to the death of Christ was indeed the people of God. Jesus was sent to the people of God in Israel. Paul was a Jew who loved his own people so much that he went to the Jews first in whatever city he preached. But this Israel ended with the beginning of the New Covenant.

The whole purpose of the New Covenant is to include all who are in Christ. Whether they be Jews or Gentiles. There is no going back. The Israel of God today are all who are in Christ. There is no special dispensation relating to the people of God who were under the Old Covenant. That Covenant ended when Christ was Crucified. And the completion and fulfillment of that Covenant was in the life of Christ on the earth and in his resurrection.

FC

 

[Eventide]

The Israel of God today are all who are in Christ.

Then it should be a simple matter of showing us where the bible teaches this.. so far not a single verse..

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

As I'm about to say on another thread, if one doesn't already see, all the Scripture in the world isn't going to help. I should think that the fact that we who are in Christ are called the Israel of God by Paul in Galatians would be sufficient. But those who believe that the physical nation of Israel continues in the modern state of Israel today will interpret what Paul said to agree with their own viewpoint. I hope you will one day see that the two Covenants are consecutive, the New following the Old. Not parallel.

FC

 

[francisdesales]

I agree francis.. it's pointless to continue when you can't answer a simple question.. and yes, that speaks for itself.

Enjoy !

I explained why I haven't anwered your question yet. What's your excuse?

Before I continue discussing Paul, we must understand Paul's background, the OT.

Do you disagree with this logical procedure, or are you purposely being intransigent?

Based on your comments on the "Israel of God", you clearly have a "Replacement Theology" in mind. I disagree with this. The descendants of Jacob throughout the OT are called "the house of Israel". This means that the Jewish people are the people of God. As God's chosen, they are objects of special affection to God. They are called His "first born", his "son", his "beloved", his "bride". Interestingly, these names are also utilized by Paul to discuss CHRISTIANS.

Now, since God's call is IRREVOCABLE (so says Paul to the Romans 11:28-29), it would be incorrect to understand that God has cast aside His People for the sake of another People. I even cited a verse from this same section of Romans that has Paul arguing "NO!".

So before we can consider who "Israel" is according to Paul, we have to look at the OT definition, his background, understanding that BOTH are Sacred Scriptures inspired by the Spirit of God.

And until we discuss this, you won't understand my answer to you on "who is the Israel of God" is - first of all, because Gentiles are not "Israel"... Gentiles are grafted INTO Israel. The term "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT, and almost always refers to the Jewish people. Only in Romans 11, Rom 9, 1 Cor 10, Gal 6:16 and Rev 7:4 do they have different meanings. I will clear that up when we proceed with the correct understanding of God's People in the OT.

Remember, Israel is a nation of People selected by God, NOT individuals judged by God to be righteous on account of their faith in Christ. And until we establish that, you will be lost on Gal 6:16, where it is the ONLY time "the Israel of God" appears in the NT.

The term "Israel" is known and used only by Jews during Paul's time. Other ancient writers do not use the term. The term "Israel" is a self-expression that they are God's people. Gentiles called them "Ioudaioi" or "Jews", not "Israel" or "Israelites". Thus, "Israel" was Jewish jargon.

This is all very interesting and I could go further, but I think we first have to establish that "Israel" is a term refering to a self-designation of the Jews as a people of God in its ENTIRETY. God saved based on a faithful remnant and His own desires, but God's salvation reached out to all Jews. The Judaizers exploited this by appealing to Gentile pride so that Gentile Christians would become circumcised and become PART OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD, joining God's elite. God's People. Clearly, Galatians is an attack on that key idea - that becoming part of the People of God no longer requires becoming ethnically Jewish!!!

Now, I've gone far beyond what I needed to do. I would expect some discussion from you on the OT useage of "Israel" before we can better understand Paul's meaning.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Eventide

As I'm about to say on another thread, if one doesn't already see, all the Scripture in the world isn't going to help.

Scripture is a light unto my path.. it's what makes me see in the first place.. although your comment here is fairly typical.. you make a statement that anyone who is in Christ is the Israel of God.. then when you can't back it up with scripture, tell me that it wouldn't matter anyway.. lol

I should think that the fact that we who are in Christ are called the Israel of God by Paul in Galatians would be sufficient.

Would you show me in Galatians where Paul calls those in Christ the Israel of God.. ?

But those who believe that the physical nation of Israel continues in the modern state of Israel today will interpret what Paul said to agree with their own viewpoint. I hope you will one day see that the two Covenants are consecutive, the New following the Old. Not parallel.

FC

Paul tells us that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. what's your opinion on that..?

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

Galatians 6:12-16

12 Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13 Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh.
14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.
16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.
(NIV)


1 Peter 2:1-10

1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.
2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
4 As you come to him, the living Stone— rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him—
5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,"
8 and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message— which is also what they were destined for.
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
(NIV)


“Paul tells us that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.. what's your opinion on that..?â€

I presume you’re speaking of this verse:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(KJV)

It is better translated by the NIV

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

First, is the mystery. Paul clearly explains the nature of this mystery in Ephesians as referring to the New Covenant relationship of all, not just the Jews, to Jesus Christ.

Second, the hardening is only in part.

Romans 9:6-8

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."
8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

And who are the children of promise today?

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And who is included?

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Third, the fulness of the Gentiles. The hardening is only until the full number of the Gentiles comes in. At that point the end of the world.

2 Peter 3:9-10

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
(NIV)

Paul before said in Romans 11 that Israel was the root and the Gentiles were grafted in. The Jews rejected their Messiah, and consequently the promises went to those who would be in Christ. Jew and Gentile alike. Paul said Gentiles have no reason to boast against the root just because they are now in Christ. The Gentiles are what they are because of Christ, not because of anything of themselves. After verse 11:25, Paul shows how the New Covenant includes Jew and Gentile.

32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The letter to the Hebrews reveals that the Old Covenant is no longer in effect because it has been superseded by the New Covenant. That the New Covenant fulfills the Old Covenant. There is nothing left for the Jews except what they can have in Christ.


Modern Israel is a political state. And that’s all. It has no connection to the nation of Israel chosen by God. It is those who are in Christ that is the new creation, the nation that is the true Israel of God, the Priesthood of God. In Spirit. Some have chosen to physicalize the Spiritual. The special and very visible Priesthood of Sacramentalism. And the modern nation of Israel. This modern nation is of no special importance to God. But it’s of great importance to Satan who desires to deceive the true people of God into thinking that they are less or different than they really are. And that’s the only reason it still exists today. Satan, the god of this world, desires it to exist. Even the Islamic nations have been deceived into thinking that the modern state of Israel is the same as their bitter enemy of the past to give credence to the deceit that the modern state is the same as the old nation.

God watches over the true people of God, the true nation of Israel. The ones who are in Christ, in whom there is neither Jew nor Gentile. And that’s why this nation still exist today in a world in which Satan is god.

Does this imply there are no physical Israelites on the earth today? Not at all. But most of those considered Israelites today are of such mixed blood that they aren’t recognizable as Israelites. They are more like the Samaritans. And there are more outside of the state of Israel than inside it. Their existence has no relationship to the modern state of Israel, unless they might happen to be citizens of that state.

Satan does deceive the nations, and tries to deceive the ones who are in Christ through the nations. Christians today are deceived by the appearance of wealth in America, and they are deceived by the existence of a nation that calls itself Israel. But God counters the deceit of Satan with the Gospel of and truth that is in Jesus Christ. And by the Spirit who convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. So that everyone has a choice to believe and know the truth because God in his sovereignty grants it to them. Evangelists, called missionaries in Christianity, are very important to the plan of God. Just as important as any other Spiritual work, called gifts or ministries in Christianity. Just as important as those who teach by passing on the teaching of Jesus Christ through the Spirit of God, rather than passing on the teaching of their own human denomination or of their own human mind.

And that’s the way I see it.

FC

 

[Eventide]

Gal 6 obviously mentions the Israel of God, although what it does not do is describe who the Israel of God is..

NOW, is this the only verse which people use to teach others that the Israel of God is the church of God.. ?

Pretty amazing how people form their opinions based upon something like that verse... but it happens... and again, many simply can't deal with the simple biblical fact that God will deliver Israel in the time of the end.

 

[francisdesales]

NOW, is this the only verse which people use to teach others that the Israel of God is the church of God.. ?

Pretty amazing how people form their opinions based upon something like that verse... but it happens... and again, many simply can't deal with the simple biblical fact that God will deliver Israel in the time of the end.

Well, doesn't it follow that if Church = assembly of people (for religious purposes) AND Israel is God's People, that the terms are synonymous for the most part? No references to the map, of course, I am not commenting on the nation/ground/dirt that is called "Israel".

Regards

 

[Eventide]

The story tells the story..

There are some pretty interesting stories in the OT which show us the future restoration of Israel thematically.. perhaps by far one of the most popular being the story of Joseph..

Joseph is a wonderous picture of Christ.. for in the volume of the book it is written of Me, saith the LORD..

Joseph was the son of Jacob's (Israel) old age.. loved by his Father and hated by his own brethren..

Joseph was given a coat of many colors..

His brethren sold him to the Gentiles for 20 pieces of silver.. Jacob (Israel) is deceived into believing that the son of his old age is dead because of his coat which is dipped in blood..

Joseph goes from the pit, to the prison, to the throne, in a far away land, unbeknownst to his brethren.. he is 2nd in command only to Pharaoh..

Is given a Gentile bride in a Gentile land..

Interprets the dream and gives a future 'Revelation' of the coming famine..

Then, when the famine does come.. his own brethren come to him for sustenance.. still unknowingly.. although in the end he reveals himself to them, and they mourn for him..

Jacob (Israel) learns late in his life that the son of his old age is alive, and ruler over all..

Joseph tells His brethren that they did it for evil and that God used it for good..

The story shows us that Israel (Jacob) is delivered in the end.. not destroyed as so many are led to believe today..

Jacob is also the one who wrestled with God all night.. and in the morning of that day the son rose upon him.. PAUL (the Apostle to the Gentiles) tells us that the night is far spent and that the day is at hand.. which will come upon the whole world as a thief in the night.. AND as travail upon a woman with child.. remember that.. it ties into Rev 12 perfectly..

Paul also warns us to not be ignorant of the mystery pertaining to Israel lest we become wise in our own conceits.. how that they (Israel) are blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and how that the Deliverer shall come from Sion and turn unglodliness from JACOB... we know that as concerning the gospel they are enemies for our sake (speaking to the church of God), and yet beloved for the sake of the fathers.. all of the patriachs of the OT who will come and sit down in the kingdom at His table.. when He comes in His glory.. along with His twelve (resurrected) Apostles who will also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.. in that Day.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: The story tells the story..

Paul also warns us to not be ignorant of the mystery pertaining to Israel lest we become wise in our own conceits.. how that they (Israel) are blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and how that the Deliverer shall come from Sion and turn unglodliness from JACOB... we know that as concerning the gospel they are enemies for our sake (speaking to the church of God), and yet beloved for the sake of the fathers.. all of the patriachs of the OT who will come and sit down in the kingdom at His table.. when He comes in His glory.. along with His twelve (resurrected) Apostles who will also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.. in that Day.. the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.

So doesn't this suggest that "Replacement Theology" is incorrect?

Regards

 

[Eventide]

There are many places on line where anyone can consider Amillenialism and Replacement Theology.. here's one about Replacement Theology.. I didn't read it all although I think that it captures the 'jist' of what it is and what it means.

What is replacement theology / supersessionism?

 

[Eventide]

Here's one for Amillennialism..

What is amillennialism?

 

[francisdesales]

Here's one for Amillennialism..

What is amillennialism?

thanks for the links...

 

[mondar]

One determines the intended meaning through context:

When, in Romans 9, Paul writes that "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel", we conclude, from what he goes on to the say, that the first reference to Israel here is a reference to the church.

And there are other examples. I think the evidence is clear: Paul has two "Israels" in his set of concepts - one of them the nation of Israel, the other the Jew+Gentile church.

Hello Drew... long time no chat. We have talked many times about Romans 9. Certainly I am in accord with your suggestion that the meaning of a phrase must be determined by the context. Let me first repeat what I hear you saying.
You are looking at the phrase "They are not all Israel." You say this phrase speaks of both Jews and Gentiles in the Church? Right? I say this because of your 2nd sentence in which you speak of the "Jew+Gentile church." So then, the question is are Gentiles included in the meaning of the term Israel in Romans 9:6.

Now for my opinion... I think every decent exegete will recognize that there is a "non-Israel" in the first phrase. I don't think you are saying anything different. You too recognize that there is a "non-Israel" in the phrase you choose. Where we disagree is on the exact identity of that "non-Israel."
I see 3 groups in Romans 9:6.
1 "They" ---- Grammatically, when you have a pronoun, you must always look for its antecedent. The antecedent of the pronoun "they" is found in verses 3-5. It would be a gross violation of the rules of grammar to suggest that verses 3-4 does not speak of genetic Israel. Notice the language of verse 3....
"for my brethren's sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 who are Israelites; "
Paul further elaborates that this Israel.... "They" have the covenants, the giving of the law... etc.
I hope we agree on #1 here that the antecedent of the word "they" in verse 6 is Genetic ISrael. Do we agree here?

2 "are not all Israel" ---- Now I want to mention that the clause in question here does not say "They are no Israel." Notice the word "all." The actual clause is that "they are not 'all' Israel." This means that not "all" genetic Israel is Israel." Of course unbelieving Israel rejected God and Christ. Paul is saying that these unbelievers are not a part of the term "Israel" in the sense of the fulfillment of the fulfillment of the (verse 4-5) ...
"...the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh..."
All these great blessings do not belong to "all" genetic Israel. This of course means that some of Genetic Israel will be the fulfillment of these promises. In my opinion, Paul is here not talking about the whole Church, but only the believing Jewish part of the Church. He is saying that not all genetic Israel is the believing Israel part of the Church. So this 2nd group is non-believing Israelites.

3 "that are of Israel" This phrase speaks of believing, elect Israel. This is the Israel of God. This does not speak of Gentiles, but of the believing part of Genetic Israel. Paul is going to include Gentiles in this group later in the passage in verse 24. He says.... "24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? " While it is true that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in the Church, this does not mean that there is no Jew and Gentile in the Church.

CONCLUSION
In all this, I am not seeing Gentiles in verse 6. Every time the term Israel is used in the passage, it seems to me that it is used either of all Genetic Israel, or some part of Genetic Israel, either believing or unbelieving. The Gentiles never enter the picture until verse 24. Then Paul merely says that the same principle that applies to Israel, works also with the Gentiles.

This leaves Romans 9 as saying that all the things mentioned in verse 3-5 belong to part of Genetic Israel. It is then fulfilled with that group. When God includes Gentiles in the same identical blessings in verse 24, that would not "fulfill" the promises to genetic Israel. However, while this is true, the giving of identical blessing to Gentiles does not break his word either. God never promises to give the blessings of verses 4-5 to only Israel. The fact that he gives the same grace to Gentiles that he promised to Jews only means that his grace can super abound beyond his promises and go to Gentiles. So then, God must fulfill his promises literally to Jews, but his grace is in no way limited to only Jews by his promises.

ONE MORE COMMENT
There are two phrases in the passage that I want to include in our discussion because I think they are the real topic behind Romans 9 This is what chapter 9 is really all about. It is the beginning of verse 6 and also verse 11. It seems to me that the essence of the passage is an apologetic to unbelieving Jews.
"6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought.
11 ....that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, "
* It seems to me that there is a major contrast between verse 6 and verse 11. In verse 6 Paul is concerned to show why the word of God does not fall. Compare this with verse 11 where the purpose of God will stand.
If we view the promises of verses 4-5 as being to genetic Israel, and in verse 3 Paul stresses that the promises are indeed to genetic Israel, then the word of God falls unless those promises are fulfilled in genetic Israel. Chapter 9 explains that the word of God stands, the promise of God will be made good, and that has to do with the elect of Israel. If no Gentiles were saved, the word of God would still stand. The apologetic to unbelieving Jews is not that Gentiles are saved and called Israel. The apologetic concerns that the promises to Jews will be fulfilled with Jews. While this might be true, verse 24 makes it very very very clear, that while the issue concerning the word of God standing or falling has to do with Israel, the Gentiles partake in that very same salvation, and in the very same blessings that Israel received.
That comes out a little interesting... because if you look at the passage with reference to salvation, all believers partake in Israels blessings and promises. In that way we are all Israel even if we are Gentiles. It is one Church. But when looking at the apologetic of the passage, and what Paul is saying concerning the word of God standing or falling, it messes up the apologetic of Romans 9 to say that Gentiles are a part of Israel. The apologetic part of the passage can never be understood in the right way if you make Gentiles to be any part of verse 6.

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

I purposefully gave the context of Galatians 6:16 and another Scripture portion that refers to us as a new nation. Yet still it’s “pretty amazing how people form their opinions based upon something†from their own minds instead of from the Bible. I can only hope you are speaking according to what you’ve been taught.

That the current state happens to be on the same land that the true nation of Israel formerly occupied, in no way implies that they’re identical or the same in any way. Any more than the Arabs who inhabited the area before them are the same as the true nation of Israel.

Read the documents relating to the formation of the state that calls itself Israel. Read about the people involved with the creation of that state. Read about the Zionist Movement. Perhaps if you read them with an open mind, you’ll see the difference between the current state and the nation of Israel written about in the Bible. It’s your choice.

FC

 

[Eventide]

Eventide

I purposefully gave the context of Galatians 6:16 and another Scripture portion that refers to us as a new nation. Yet still it’s “pretty amazing how people form their opinions based upon something†from their own minds instead of from the Bible. I can only hope you are speaking according to what you’ve been taught.

You're certainly welcome to hold to the opinion that Gal 6 supports what you claim.. that anyone in Christ is the Israel of God.. I don't see the text saying anything remotely close to that..

That the current state happens to be on the same land that the true nation of Israel formerly occupied, in no way implies that they’re identical or the same in any way. Any more than the Arabs who inhabited the area before them are the same as the true nation of Israel.

Read the documents relating to the formation of the state that calls itself Israel. Read about the people involved with the creation of that state. Read about the Zionist Movement. Perhaps if you read them with an open mind, you’ll see the difference between the current state and the nation of Israel written about in the Bible. It’s your choice.

The scriptural support for the future restoration and salvation of Israel is (imo) beyond refuting.. although many just can't seem to accept that.. Matthew 19 makes it perfectly clear that when the Lord comes and then sits upon the throne of His glory, that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones.. judging the twelve tribes of Israel..

Isreal is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. then shall the Deliverer come from Sion and turn ungodliness from JACOB.. Jacob is Israel.. and the twelve tribes are name after his sons..

Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled..

Large portions of OT speak to their rejecting the Messiah, becoming desolate, and being restored in the end.. this can't be ignored.. and Paul (the apostle to the GENTILES) warns the church of God against that very thing.. lest we become wise in our own conceits..