Why many stumble.. Amillennialism and Replacement Theology

[Eventide]

what happens when one is saved?

are they not in the body of christ? we agreed that salvation is the same for the jews and gentiles right now.

I'm not sure if tribulation saints will be part of the church of God..

so unless during the tribulation then we have another way to the lord and another gospel how then will the trib saints be saved?

As mentioned already... by the everlasting gospel being preached, even by an Angel..

besides all the promises to isreal in a nut shell is, serve me and believe the messiah i sent. and you are redeem and a land promise with kingdom. that is it,not another gospel or way to him.

Who said it's another gospel..?

 

[jasoncran]

are not all in christ? if in christ then they are part of the body of christ.

do you think that the trib saints wont have some place to gather and need encourgament?

 

[Eventide]

are not all in christ? if in christ then they are part of the body of christ.

According to Eph 1, all things will ultimately be in Christ..

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

do you think that the trib saints wont have some place to gather and need encourgament?

During the great tribulation it will be either worship the beast and his image or be killed for not doing so.

 

[jasoncran]

According to Eph 1, all things will ultimately be in Christ..

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.



During the great tribulation it will be either worship the beast and his image or be killed for not doing so.

ok so then the feast in heaven cant exclude the trib saints as they are in the church.

so i do think you just agreed with me on this

that the church includes the trib saints and cant likely be evacuated during the tribulation. note; that doesnt mean when God comes to judge will be on the earth.

 

[Eventide]

ok so then the feast in heaven cant exclude the trib saints as they are in the church.

so i do think you just agreed with me on this

I'm not sure on that.. I'm not sure if they'll be in heaven or even part of the church of God.

that the church includes the trib saints and cant likely be evacuated during the tribulation. note; that doesnt mean when God comes to judge will be on the earth.

What do you mean by that.. "that doesn't mean when God comes to judge will be on earth"..

 

[jasoncran]

simple. all the pre-tribbers seem to think that God will protect the church from satan and the ac.

when the ac kills you where will you Go?
heaven
when satan kills you where will you go?
heaven
when God slays you where will you Go?
HELL.

from that persceptive we have nothing to lose.God never said that men nor the devil wouldnt kill you, only that he wouldnt.

 

[Eventide]

simple. all the pre-tribbers seem to think that God will protect the church from satan and the ac.

There's a scriptural basis for it too.. Rev 3:10 which we've already discussed.. and also the simple fact that the church of God is all over chapters 1-3 of the Revelation and yet not one single mention of it with respect to "the things which shall be hereafter" which pertains to chapters 4-22.. "The things which are" pertains to this present time.. while Christ is building His church.

when the ac kills you where will you Go?
heaven
when satan kills you where will you go?
heaven
when God slays you where will you Go?
HELL.

I think that there's a little more to it than that.. the scriptures say that no man has ascended into heaven but the son of man who is in heaven.. His resurrected body is there although not ours.. Paul tells us that the dead in Christ shall rise first and that we that remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the LORD in the air.. so our spirit may go there although our bodies still await the resurrection. I think ?? lol..

from that persceptive we have nothing to lose.God never said that men nor the devil wouldnt kill you, only that he wouldnt.

I agree that it wouldn't matter in the end.. Satan can only kill the body whereas the LORD has much greater authority.

 

[jasoncran]

There's a scriptural basis for it too.. Rev 3:10 which we've already discussed.. and also the simple fact that the church of God is all over chapters 1-3 of the Revelation and yet not one single mention of it with respect to "the things which shall be hereafter" which pertains to chapters 4-22.. "The things which are" pertains to this present time.. while Christ is building His church.



I think that there's a little more to it than that.. the scriptures say that no man has ascended into heaven but the son of man who is in heaven.. His resurrected body is there although not ours.. Paul tells us that the dead in Christ shall rise first and that we that remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the LORD in the air.. so our spirit may go there although our bodies still await the resurrection. I think ?? lol..



I agree that it wouldn't matter in the end.. Satan can only kill the body whereas the LORD has much greater authority.

tereo doesnt imply a removal it means to kept as in store, i posted that.

and theres this verse. pray ye therefore that ye may be worthy at his coming with his saints.why would he state that if the rapture is the removal of the chruch so the trib saints dont pray this?

did the prophets or godly men in isreal times avoid the judgement of God on judea? no they were taken alive and even the enemy by God's hand protected them.

this is why i no longer buy into the tribulation being seven years.

sir you despise calvinism, to make a point by being born in the trib the saint is then treated by God as less of saint.

 

[Eventide]

tereo doesnt imply a removal it means to kept as in store, i posted that.

And of course I also mentioned that there's no mention of the church of God in the Revelation with respect to the things which shall be hereafter.. and the fact that the marriage of the Lamb takes place in heaven.. and that the saints are coming with Him when He comes.. as Revelation 19 describes.

and theres this verse. pray ye therefore that ye may be worthy at his coming with his saints.why would he state that if the rapture is the removal of the chruch so the trib saints dont pray this?

What verse(s) are you referring to.. specifically..

did the prophets or godly men in isreal times avoid the judgement of God on judea? no they were taken alive and even the enemy by God's hand protected them.

this is why i no longer buy into the tribulation being seven years.

The church of God isn't the Israel of God.. that's basically what this thread is all about.. replacement theology..

sir you despise calvinism, to make a point by being born in the trib the saint is then treated by God as less of saint.

Calvinism is false doctrine.. and all the Israelites born before Christ are not members of the church of God either.. is God treating them less because they're not members of His church ?

 

[jasoncran]

And of course I also mentioned that there's no mention of the church of God in the Revelation with respect to the things which shall be hereafter.. and the fact that the marriage of the Lamb takes place in heaven.. and that the saints are coming with Him when He comes.. as Revelation 19 describes.



What verse(s) are you referring to.. specifically..



The church of God isn't the Israel of God.. that's basically what this thread is all about.. replacement theology..




Calvinism is false doctrine.. and all the Israelites born before Christ are not members of the church of God either.. is God treating them less because they're not members of His church ?

sigh , sir you agreed that the jews and gentiles are after the cross redeemed by the blood, right?

sir, you also stated that and agreed that in the trib there will be gentiles in heaven beheaded for christ?

as of now, the jews compromise 6% of the worlds population. will there be such a large explosion of them.

its assuming that church isnt there that is your problem. so when the jews come to christ and gentiles, what they do? will they say i love jesus and die? will they not have meetings and pray and well give and do things as any persucted church?

if so then that is the church? its illogical to sat they arent going to that.

DO YOU SEE the very assumptions made in the tribulation theories on isreal.

show me in the kingdom of heaven where the jews and christians are going to seperated?

all that verses in mean is the land promise is still there, nothing in that says the jew wont be as we are after the cross.

my last name is a most jewish one. i am a jew, and messianic in that sense.

so i am which?. so in order to get the land promise, its tough luck for you, you were born too early?

why do poeple either go one way or the other on isreal is beyond me. the jew is merely promised is land back. not the temple and the law per the torah.

God said in jeremiah that he was going to do away with that. its called the cross. it has passed.

 

[jasoncran]

no the jews or rather hebrews are in christ. to whom did they unknowingly worship as they didnt have the full revalation.

they had acess to God, no you gentiles have that same acess.

interesting, so only the ot saints live in isreal when she is restored.

hmm. that isnt what paul said.God is going to save a remnant of isreal and purge the jews of sin,

ok. are all jews saved in this time? do you think some arent going to say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the lord? a remnant of isreal is going to be saved, not all of it.

 

[Eventide]

no the jews or rather hebrews are in christ. to whom did they unknowingly worship as they didnt have the full revalation.

I don't buy that.. Israel is not yet in Christ.. they will be ultimately but not yet.. we're told that they're cut off and blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and then shall the Deliverer come from Sion and then shall all Israel be saved.

I think that this is one of the most important distinctions to make in the word of God.. the difference between the earthly entity known as the Israel of God and the church of God.

they had acess to God, no you gentiles have that same acess.

yes..

interesting, so only the ot saints live in isreal when she is restored.

hmm. that isnt what paul said.God is going to save a remnant of isreal and purge the jews of sin,

ok. are all jews saved in this time? do you think some arent going to say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the lord? a remnant of isreal is going to be saved, not all of it.

The bible says that all Israel shall be saved.. and we know that not all Israel is the Israel of God..

 

[jasoncran]

I don't buy that.. Israel is not yet in Christ.. they will be ultimately but not yet.. we're told that they're cut off and blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. and then shall the Deliverer come from Sion and then shall all Israel be saved.

I think that this is one of the most important distinctions to make in the word of God.. the difference between the earthly entity known as the Israel of God and the church of God.



yes..



The bible says that all Israel shall be saved.. and we know that not all Israel is the Israel of God..

no, all of isreal isnt what you say. read what he refers to romans 9.

a jew when he dies has this on his headstone, son and or dauther of jacob.

that is a direct reference to what we are debating.

isreal isnt a location in these promises but a peoples. if my kin die and dont know jesus where will they go?

hell,sadly.



what will the jew believe to be saved? what will be preached to him or her?

the torah and the laws of moses or christ risen. if the later then they are a christian.

paul never said that the law would come back, he said in romans 9 and unto ten

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed
romans 10:

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

now then take note of vs 4, how else is the jew going to get in? if he does and what would he read and do in the trib?

how would he worship?

look, you can take the land from the hebrew, but not the hebrew from the land. do you understand this?

 

[jasoncran]

secondly. being born a jew doesnt make you saved. it has little meaning to God if one isnt saved.

and no im not implying we replace them, while i am in isreal in a sense. i am not going to temple and reciting the torah and following kosher laws.

you are confusing a physical kingdom with land promise and a temple whereby jesus comes to rein in, and from. with the idea that jews of today and trib will worhsip him differently then the christians.

that isnt required to do what the messainic jews do.

k this will sound arrogant but its not. i was told when i came to christ that i was a jew and not to read the nt, but start in genesis. when i listened , the ot had a whole new meaning. first i saw christ everywhere. and second the children of isreal were family.

yes i was told i was a jew but cared not for these things till after salvation. that is why i believe i am one those promised land. if i stay faithful.

not all jews are jews in the "genes" case in point. the half tribe of mannaseh and ephraim, and also the lineage of christ has some gentile blood.

 

[Eventide]

no, all of isreal isnt what you say. read what he refers to romans 9.

Scripture tesaches that all Israel shall be saved.. not me..

a jew when he dies has this on his headstone, son and or dauther of jacob.

that is a direct reference to what we are debating.

isreal isnt a location in these promises but a peoples. if my kin die and dont know jesus where will they go?

hell,sadly.

The context of Romans 9-11 pertains to the nation of Israel.. and of course that also means the sons of JACOB.. and that's what the Deliverer shall do when He comes from Sion.. He will turn ungodliness from JACOB..

what will the jew believe to be saved? what will be preached to him or her?

the torah and the laws of moses or christ risen. if the later then they are a christian.

paul never said that the law would come back, he said in romans 9 and unto ten

now then take note of vs 4, how else is the jew going to get in? if he does and what would he read and do in the trib?

how would he worship?

look, you can take the land from the hebrew, but not the hebrew from the land. do you understand this?

I don't know what you're talking about half the time Jason.. lol

 

[jasoncran]

n

Scripture tesaches that all Israel shall be saved.. not me..



The context of Romans 9-11 pertains to the nation of Israel.. and of course that also means the sons of JACOB.. and that's what the Deliverer shall do when He comes from Sion.. He will turn ungodliness from JACOB..



I don't know what you're talking about half the time Jason.. lol

no it doesnt, all they that are isreal in the flesh arent isreal. what did he mean by that?

let me ask you this.

a jew, does he ever need christ, simply being born a jew makes him saved?

if so then we dont need the blood at all. the nation of isreal that God has mysteriously ordianed and called from the nations shall be saved.


what is isreal? a nation or a people or a religion?

to whom to did jesus say ye shall not see me again till ye say.

hint the the jewish religious leaders.

so if we have jews that reject the lord and die, they go to hell.

do you realise why God would have to purge the jew of their sins?

i do, i have dialogued with jews and also asked others that are way more knowledgable then i am.

modern judaism teaches this in general

God of isreal isnt the only way.
reincarnation
nothing wrong with homosexuality or abortion.
the messiah isnt ben joseph but will ben david(jesus first came as the suffering serveant aka ben joseph)

one can be athiest and still be a jew in the flesh.

ie karl marx
in the jewish culture a jew is either:

a person of either gentile or jew that practices judaism
or one who is born of a jewish mother.

thats it.

so which of these are you going to say is God's people

and please read up what abraham did to be that loved by God, and birth had nothing to do with it. jesus said that he is able of these rocks to raise seed of abraham.

heres what you are failing to see. you gentiles are the provocation to get the nation of isreal to repent. its even said that i will go to a foolish nation to provoke you to jealousy.

that is what hoshea and paul were talking about!

 

[jasoncran]

so when the pharisees rejected the lord and the lord judge them as unforgivable did the lord then fail his promise that every jew would be saved?

all of isreal cant mean every single jew on the earth that ever lived or will live.

they wouldnt need the blood. Paul even stated the the blood be on their own hands for rejecting the cross and become the apostle of the gentiles.

 

[Eventide]

no it doesnt,

If you'd like to reject the plain truth of scripture then go right ahead.. people do it all the time.

all they that are isreal in the flesh arent isreal. what did he mean by that?

IMO it simply means that all descendants of JACOB are not the Israel of God.. the justified live by faith.. always have, always will.

let me ask you this.

a jew, does he ever need christ, simply being born a jew makes him saved?

Of course not.. what makes you say this Jason.. haven't I clearly stated that Israel will be saved the same way as EVERYONE ELSE ?

if so then we dont need the blood at all. the nation of isreal that God has mysteriously ordianed and called from the nations shall be saved.

Who has said in this thread (or anywhere) that a person is saved because they're a Jew ?

what is isreal? a nation or a people or a religion?

Israel is JACOB and his twelve sons.. and it also refers to the nation.. their specific land in the mideast.

to whom to did jesus say ye shall not see me again till ye say.

hint the the jewish religious leaders.

so if we have jews that reject the lord and die, they go to hell.

do you realise why God would have to purge the jew of their sins?

i do, i have dialogued with jews and also asked others that are way more knowledgable then i am.

modern judaism teaches this in general

God of isreal isnt the only way.
reincarnation
nothing wrong with homosexuality or abortion.
the messiah isnt ben joseph but will ben david(jesus first came as the suffering serveant aka ben joseph)

one can be athiest and still be a jew in the flesh.

ie karl marx
in the jewish culture a jew is either:

a person of either gentile or jew that practices judaism
or one who is born of a jewish mother.

thats it.

so which of these are you going to say is God's people

and please read up what abraham did to be that loved by God, and birth had nothing to do with it. jesus said that he is able of these rocks to raise seed of abraham.

heres what you are failing to see. you gentiles are the provocation to get the nation of isreal to repent. its even said that i will go to a foolish nation to provoke you to jealousy.

that is what hoshea and paul were talking about!

God's people are those who trust in His promises by faith..

 

[jasoncran]

lol, now you agree on some things

ok let me state what a jew that could be saved in the times ahead.

one:
gentile convert
two: jew that is into judiasm
three: a cultural jew

that said, are all going to repent in isreal and the tribulation

lets say in isreal at present:

is 75% jewish. which i have verified to be close per 2008 census, and went to the isreali govt. are all these going to be saved?

no by your own admition. some will reject. otherwise if all is all then that statement of yours that being born a jew means salvation isnt so i negated.

so what did paul mean? a REMNANT, those that werent killed in the shoahs to come(holocausts as per zechariah 12) and repented. these make up isreal and the number isnt given plus all those since the time of christ that have come to the lord as well.


theres also this that hasnt happen yet and we dont see any tribe gathering in isreal that truly from the northern kingdom. modern isreal is really the state of judea not isreal.

a jew is one from benjamin and or judah. judah the southern kingdom is the one that word jew refers to a citizen off.

 

[Eventide]

lol, now you agree on some things

lol... I don't know Jason.. I really don't follow what you're trying to say most of the time... although here's what the word of God says.. take it or leave it.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance

Sadly enough.. many do exactly what Paul tells them not do..